Nikom Chimnok on tue 14 mar 00
Coffee cup makers:
My (Thai) wife just bought me a new coffee cup for 27 cents. It's a
beaut, flawless white glaze, just the right size to hold a Melitta
filter-full with about 3/4 inches left over so it doesn't spill when I slosh
it, making my way from house to office. Jiggered, I reckon. My wife said she
didn't know why it was so cheap; I showed her a tiny spot on the foot which
must have had a speck of glaze on it, because the clay stuck to the shelf
instead of to the cup, thus turning it into a second, so they had to sell it
locally for 27 cents instead of the usual 50 cents they'd get from an
American department store who'd then turn around and off it for $4. My wife
said she never would have seen that defect and it doesn't make any
difference anyway; I replied that I am a pro at spotting defects and she was
right, it doesn't make any difference. Fine coffee cup, use it till it
breaks, or I lose it, or I die, one.
The moral of this story, coffee cup makers, is: Don't bother to try
to compete, pricewise, with those who supply 99+% of the coffee cups to the
world. Charge whatever you want--$25, $30, $40. You're making coffee cups
for your personal satisfaction, so wait for rich customers who will buy them
for their personal satisfaction. The rest of the people in the world are in
a different league, more interested in the coffee than the cup and may
indeed prefer the aesthetics of my cup to yours. An artist friend once told
me that in the modern world the highest compliment you can pay a
craftsperson is: "Wow, that looks just like it was made by a machine!"
But this moral comes with an important corollary: Don't whine if you
can't sell your cups. The real cup makers of the world think that life is
really looking up now that they've escaped from the farm and become Number
One Jig Man at the cup factory making $8 for a 12 hour day; don't be
surprised if you can't take annual vacations to foreign lands while sending
your children to college by doing essentially the same work as the kid from
Viet Nam. If you can't sell your cups for the prices you want (need), it may
be a message; it may be The Market, whispering in your ear: "Get a job. Get
a real job..."
Nikom in Thailand (who learned long ago that writers and artists make
excellent carpenters)
******************************************
At 15:03 13/3/00 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hear, Hear! Potters should sell their mugs for $20.00 or higher. These are
>NOT from Korea or China and being mass produced. If the piece is not
>important to this $10.00 person, they don't need any of it! Potters hold
>tight for a descent profit margin!
elizabeth priddy on tue 14 mar 00
if the design work is solid, including the
production process design, the mug can be
quite beautiful without enormous time
commitments.
If you can't throw at least thirty mugs
in an hour, maybe you ought to make other
things, as that is a minimal rate for mug
making to be profitable.
Think about it:
1 hour, 30 made
1 hour, thirty cleaned, handled
1 hour, dry footed and glazed
1 hour, loading, firing
4 hours, $20 per hour, $80 divided by 30
about $2.75, including a quarter for the clay
There is 2 more dollars per mug of time for
intricate decoration and to still be able to
sell it for under ten dollars. The key is
production design and volume with regard to
mugs and most inexperienced potters do not have
this under command enough to really work it.
That comes with time and experience or
education.
---
Elizabeth Priddy
email: epriddy@usa.net
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:38:28 Maid O'Mud Pottery wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>James L Bowen wrote:
>
>
>> . I will not pay more than say ten dollars for a coffee cup, regardless of ho
>> beautiful I may think it to be. They get used daily and broken frequently.
>
>So then, how much do you sell your mugs for? If a mug is retailing for $10, th
>the potter only receives $5 wholesale. If a lot of time is spent to make the m
>"beautiful", shouldn't the potter be paid for their time and effort? Perhaps y
>should take better care of your mugs and not break them as often so that they w
>have more "value" to you, and the person you purchase from can make a decent pr
>from the mug they sell you.
>
>
>--
>sam - alias the cat lady
>SW Ontario CANADA
>http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110 scuttell@odyssey.on.ca
>
>"First, the clay told me what to do
> Then, I told the clay what to do
> Now; we co-operate"
>sam, 1994
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Terrance Lazaroff on wed 15 mar 00
In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
<< Elizabeth >>
Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
Terrance F. Lazaroff
St Hubert, Quebec.
Charles G Hughes on thu 16 mar 00
Terrance,
You have to buy your clay in quantity! At 6 tons you're looking at about
6 bucks per 25lbs wet clay including renting a forklift to get it off the
truck and the shipping charges. Buying 6 tons of ingredients for mixing your
own will give you an even better price.
-Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: Terrance Lazaroff
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: Now mug price
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
>
> << Elizabeth >>
> Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
> Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
>
> Terrance F. Lazaroff
> St Hubert, Quebec.
elizabeth priddy on fri 17 mar 00
The standard price for clay is about 27 cents
per pound before shipping, and I make mugs with
3/4 of a pound, no trimming on the feet for
mugs, just a perfect flat bottom due to my
tile bat system.
Roughly a quarter or a little
less, depending on how I got the clay
to my studio/shipping.
I won't say where I buy it as my current
supplier is a louse and I am about to switch,
but the catalog price on the clay I am
sampling is also in the range of 27 cents per
pound at the ton quantity, which is how I buy
it.
By the same calculation of cost, assume that
the clay cost is twice that, 50 cents per; the
cost of a mug is not significantly changed as
that plays into that extra 2 bucks I factored
in for fiddling with it.
Mugs are loss leaders, in retail terms, to me.
As Mel indicated, they bring you customers,
your other stock keeps them and makes the
profit.
---
Elizabeth Priddy
email: epriddy@usa.net
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:48:52 Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
>
><< Elizabeth >>
>Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
>Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
>
>Terrance F. Lazaroff
>St Hubert, Quebec.
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Marcia Selsor on sun 19 mar 00
I remeber 27 or so years ago there was an article by a potter who said
he priced pieces starting at $2/pound wet then added .50 per handle or addition.
.27/pound is a huge drop comparatively speaking for 25 years later.
Marcia
elizabeth priddy wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> The standard price for clay is about 27 cents
> per pound before shipping, and I make mugs with
> 3/4 of a pound, no trimming on the feet for
> mugs, just a perfect flat bottom due to my
> tile bat system.
>
> Roughly a quarter or a little
> less, depending on how I got the clay
> to my studio/shipping.
>
> I won't say where I buy it as my current
> supplier is a louse and I am about to switch,
> but the catalog price on the clay I am
> sampling is also in the range of 27 cents per
> pound at the ton quantity, which is how I buy
> it.
>
> By the same calculation of cost, assume that
> the clay cost is twice that, 50 cents per; the
> cost of a mug is not significantly changed as
> that plays into that extra 2 bucks I factored
> in for fiddling with it.
>
> Mugs are loss leaders, in retail terms, to me.
>
> As Mel indicated, they bring you customers,
> your other stock keeps them and makes the
> profit.
>
> ---
> Elizabeth Priddy
>
> email: epriddy@usa.net
> http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
> Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:48:52 Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
> >
> ><< Elizabeth >>
> >Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
> >Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
> >
> >Terrance F. Lazaroff
> >St Hubert, Quebec.
> >
>
> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
--
Marcia Selsor
selsor@imt.net
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
elizabeth priddy on mon 20 mar 00
We are not using the smae terminology. I was
referring to the price of the clay itself, not
the clay article. Oddly enough, it comes out
about right acording to your formula. As the
price wholesale for the mug I came to was about
two dollars and 50 cents. And my clay weight
is just shy of a pound, your two dollars, plus
the fifty cent handle, so about $2.50!
---
Elizabeth Priddy
email: epriddy@usa.net
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:41:12 Marcia Selsor wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I remeber 27 or so years ago there was an article by a potter who said
>he priced pieces starting at $2/pound wet then added .50 per handle or addition
>.27/pound is a huge drop comparatively speaking for 25 years later.
>Marcia
>
>elizabeth priddy wrote:
>>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> The standard price for clay is about 27 cents
>> per pound before shipping, and I make mugs with
>> 3/4 of a pound, no trimming on the feet for
>> mugs, just a perfect flat bottom due to my
>> tile bat system.
>>
>> Roughly a quarter or a little
>> less, depending on how I got the clay
>> to my studio/shipping.
>>
>> I won't say where I buy it as my current
>> supplier is a louse and I am about to switch,
>> but the catalog price on the clay I am
>> sampling is also in the range of 27 cents per
>> pound at the ton quantity, which is how I buy
>> it.
>>
>> By the same calculation of cost, assume that
>> the clay cost is twice that, 50 cents per; the
>> cost of a mug is not significantly changed as
>> that plays into that extra 2 bucks I factored
>> in for fiddling with it.
>>
>> Mugs are loss leaders, in retail terms, to me.
>>
>> As Mel indicated, they bring you customers,
>> your other stock keeps them and makes the
>> profit.
>>
>> ---
>> Elizabeth Priddy
>>
>> email: epriddy@usa.net
>> http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
>> Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:48:52 Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
>> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> >In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> >epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
>> >
>> ><< Elizabeth >>
>> >Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
>> >Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
>> >
>> >Terrance F. Lazaroff
>> >St Hubert, Quebec.
>> >
>>
>> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
>> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>
>--
>Marcia Selsor
>selsor@imt.net
>http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
>http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
>http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ray Aldridge on wed 22 mar 00
With all due respect to Elizabeth, because I have great respect for her
views, and even though I'm pretty cautious about making absolute
statements, I'll say flatly there are no American potters who can wholesale
their own mugs at $2.50 and make a living wage.
If I recall, Elizabeth's figures were based on being able to throw, handle,
glaze and fire 60 mugs in an 8 hour day. Perhaps I've misunderstood her,
but she left out many of the costs associated with making those mugs. The
only cost she mentioned was the cost of clay. But there are also the costs
of glaze and firing, as well as the capital costs of the equipment used.
If we say that those costs amount to .75 per mug, then our pay rate has
dropped to about $13/hour. Not bad, you say? She also didn't add the
overhead costs of running a studio-- rent, utilities, insurance, printed
materials, regulatory costs (licenses, etc.) cost of buying and running a
vehicle, etc. Let's say we're very frugal and those costs only amount to
$20 a working day. Now we're down to a little more than $10/hour.
But there are many other things a potter running an independent studio is
required to do besides making pots. Clay has to be moved in and prepared,
glazes have to be developed and mixed, the floor has to be mopped,
equipment and studio have to be kept in good repair, and so on. I just
spent a couple days building racks for a new booth. I estimate that for
every hour spent in production, I spend at least a half hour doing other
things that need to be done. Now we're down to $7.
Still possible, you say-- a hard life but a satisfying one? Sadly, it gets
worse. One major cost Elizabeth didn't mention is the cost of selling
those 60 mugs. Even if you have folks lined up outside your door waiting
to take them as they come out of the kiln, it still takes time to talk to
customers, pack pots for transport, do the paperwork, etc. If we figure
two hours to sell 60 mugs, then our hourly pay has dropped to $6. And
remember that as independent business people, we have to take care of our
own health insurance and retirement, and pay taxes on that tiny smidgeon of
money, including self-employment taxes, which at least burger flippers
don't have to pay....
It's just not possible to live and support a family on that kind of money.
I don't care if your name is John Henry, you ain't gonna beat that steam
engine down. We can't compete with factories on price-- that's why the
potters of yore went out of business when factories began producing
domestic ware. It wasn't because they weren't skilled potters, because
they could make a lot more than 60 mugs a day.
So we have to compete on some other basis than price.
Ray
At 09:08 AM 3/20/00 EST, Elizabeth wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>We are not using the smae terminology. I was
>referring to the price of the clay itself, not
>the clay article. Oddly enough, it comes out
>about right acording to your formula. As the
>price wholesale for the mug I came to was about
>two dollars and 50 cents. And my clay weight
>is just shy of a pound, your two dollars, plus
>the fifty cent handle, so about $2.50!
>
>---
>Elizabeth Priddy
>
>email: epriddy@usa.net
>http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
>Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:41:12 Marcia Selsor wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I remeber 27 or so years ago there was an article by a potter who said
>>he priced pieces starting at $2/pound wet then added .50 per handle or
addition
>>.27/pound is a huge drop comparatively speaking for 25 years later.
>>Marcia
>>
>>elizabeth priddy wrote:
>>>
>>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>> The standard price for clay is about 27 cents
>>> per pound before shipping, and I make mugs with
>>> 3/4 of a pound, no trimming on the feet for
>>> mugs, just a perfect flat bottom due to my
>>> tile bat system.
>>>
>>> Roughly a quarter or a little
>>> less, depending on how I got the clay
>>> to my studio/shipping.
>>>
>>> I won't say where I buy it as my current
>>> supplier is a louse and I am about to switch,
>>> but the catalog price on the clay I am
>>> sampling is also in the range of 27 cents per
>>> pound at the ton quantity, which is how I buy
>>> it.
>>>
>>> By the same calculation of cost, assume that
>>> the clay cost is twice that, 50 cents per; the
>>> cost of a mug is not significantly changed as
>>> that plays into that extra 2 bucks I factored
>>> in for fiddling with it.
>>>
>>> Mugs are loss leaders, in retail terms, to me.
>>>
>>> As Mel indicated, they bring you customers,
>>> your other stock keeps them and makes the
>>> profit.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Elizabeth Priddy
>>>
>>> email: epriddy@usa.net
>>> http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
>>> Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:48:52 Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
>>> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>> >In a message dated 3/14/00 2:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>> >epriddy@my-Deja.com writes:
>>> >
>>> ><< Elizabeth >>
>>> >Where do you buy your clay. I take it you use a pound of clay per mug.
>>> >Where can you find a pound of clay for 25 cents?
>>> >
>>> >Terrance F. Lazaroff
>>> >St Hubert, Quebec.
>>> >
>>>
>>> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
>>> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>>
>>--
>>Marcia Selsor
>>selsor@imt.net
>>http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
>>http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
>>http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
>>
>
>
>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>
Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
http://www.goodpots.com
Katie Cordrey on thu 23 mar 00
Ray,
I want to say how much I appreciate your posts about
the buisness of pottery! (Business in general.) I've
been setting up my studio over the past year and have
a few bits yet to complete. I'm trying to remember all
the things I've fogotton about clay over the past
twenty years and learn what I never knew. I know it
will take some time before I can sell, let alone make
a living from clay.
So, I support myself doing accounting and small
business services, like business plans and simple
promotional packages. (My degree is in Social Science,
though I have plenty of credits for one in Art or
Literature... scattered? No. Eclectic!)
Notheless, I'm good at business. I've successfully
started, run and sold a couple of them and do the
accounting as a consultant. I try to educate small
business owners, employees, customers, etc., about the
"hidden" costs of business, or work, for that matter.
One of the things I recommend is making a spreadsheet
showing hourly wage and apportioned business costs
including all the things you have mentioned as well as
replacement of depreciated items, taxes and
insurances. By doing this for a range of rates, the
survival price point becomes apparent. Also, factoring
things like retail space or show costs makes galleries
and shopkeepers look a whole lot more appealing as
marketing choices.
I'm sure you're aware of all of this. Just wanted to
offer some support to your efforts. I for one am glad
to have you as the unofficial ClayArt AntiChrist!
Katie Cordrey
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Katie Cordrey on thu 23 mar 00
Ray,
I want to say how much I appreciate your posts about
the business of pottery! (Business in general.) I've
been setting up my studio over the past year and have
a few bits yet to complete. I'm trying to remember all
the things I've fogotten about clay over the past
twenty years and learn what I never knew. I know it
will take some time before I can sell, let alone make
a living from clay.
So, I support myself doing accounting and small
business services, like business plans and simple
promotional packages. (My degree is in Social Science,
though I have plenty of credits for one in Art or
Literature... scattered? No. Eclectic!)
Nonetheless, I'm good at business. I've successfully
started, run and sold a couple of them and do the
accounting as a consultant. I try to educate small
business owners, employees, customers, etc., about the
"hidden" costs of business, or work, for that matter.
One of the things I recommend is making a spreadsheet
showing hourly wage and apportioned business costs
including all the things you have mentioned as well as
replacement of depreciated items, taxes and
insurances. By doing this for a range of rates, the
survival price point becomes apparent. Also, factoring
things like retail space or show costs makes galleries
and shopkeepers look a whole lot more appealing as
marketing choices.
I'm sure you're aware of all of this. Just wanted to
offer some support to your efforts. I for one am glad
to have you as the unofficial ClayArt AntiChrist!
Katie Cordrey
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Jeanne Wood on thu 23 mar 00
Hi Ray and Others,
Another aspect to prices is the area you live in. I
live in an isolated area, with the greater population
of lowish income and two Universities nearby. The
combination of low-income potential customers and
other potters who are subsidized in one way or another
by the Universities (often by a U. employed spouse)
make for expectations of pretty low prices for all
art.
I am considered a higher-priced potter in this area,
and -am- compared to other booths I see at local art
festivals or prices in Fine Crafts shops.
However, I'm way inexpensive if I travel to a "real"
city, or even check out prices of pottery available on
the web.
I've never been able to decide, is it reasonable to
change pricing according to area?
Either way, after reading the thoughtful comments on
pricing, I'm at least going to raise the prices of my
lower-end mugs.
-Jeanne W.
--- Ray Aldridge wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> With all due respect to Elizabeth, because I have
> great respect for her
> views, and even though I'm pretty cautious about
> making absolute
> statements, I'll say flatly there are no American
> potters who can wholesale
> their own mugs at $2.50 and make a living wage.
>
> If I recall, Elizabeth's figures were based on being
> able to throw, handle,
> glaze and fire 60 mugs in an 8 hour day. Perhaps
> I've misunderstood her,
> but she left out many of the costs associated with
> making those mugs. The
> only cost she mentioned was the cost of clay. But
> there are also the costs
> of glaze and firing, as well as the capital costs of
> the equipment used.
> If we say that those costs amount to .75 per mug,
> then our pay rate has
> dropped to about $13/hour. Not bad, you say? She
> also didn't add the
> overhead costs of running a studio-- rent,
> utilities, insurance, printed
> materials, regulatory costs (licenses, etc.) cost of
> buying and running a
> vehicle, etc. Let's say we're very frugal and those
> costs only amount to
> $20 a working day. Now we're down to a little more
> than $10/hour.
>
> But there are many other things a potter running an
> independent studio is
> required to do besides making pots. Clay has to be
> moved in and prepared,
> glazes have to be developed and mixed, the floor has
> to be mopped,
> equipment and studio have to be kept in good repair,
> and so on. I just
> spent a couple days building racks for a new booth.
> I estimate that for
> every hour spent in production, I spend at least a
> half hour doing other
> things that need to be done. Now we're down to $7.
>
> Still possible, you say-- a hard life but a
> satisfying one? Sadly, it gets
> worse. One major cost Elizabeth didn't mention is
> the cost of selling
> those 60 mugs. Even if you have folks lined up
> outside your door waiting
> to take them as they come out of the kiln, it still
> takes time to talk to
> customers, pack pots for transport, do the
> paperwork, etc. If we figure
> two hours to sell 60 mugs, then our hourly pay has
> dropped to $6. And
> remember that as independent business people, we
> have to take care of our
> own health insurance and retirement, and pay taxes
> on that tiny smidgeon of
> money, including self-employment taxes, which at
> least burger flippers
> don't have to pay....
>
> It's just not possible to live and support a family
> on that kind of money.
> I don't care if your name is John Henry, you ain't
> gonna beat that steam
> engine down. We can't compete with factories on
> price-- that's why the
> potters of yore went out of business when factories
> began producing
> domestic ware. It wasn't because they weren't
> skilled potters, because
> they could make a lot more than 60 mugs a day.
>
> So we have to compete on some other basis than
> price.
>
> Ray
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
| |
|
