David McDonald on thu 23 mar 00
When is a mug just a mug?
When we as potters buy other potter's pots, I think we are saying that
there is something extraordinary about them. Especially if we don't even
know the potter, and are'nt buying the work because of the potter's
reputation.
This was the case when my wife and I purchased two slip cast coffee cups
at $40 each during our visit to a studio in Santa Fe last year. My point;
in considering pricing of functional pots, I personally would prefer to
see more attention put on how we, and others, respond to the work we are
seeing. Clearly this husband and wife team, with 4 employees, produced
alot of pots(quantity and variety), and knew that enough people would
find them irresistable to sell them all regularly, as is the case for
them. Every day use items, such as cups and mugs, need'nt be thought of
as just cups and mugs. What do my mugs have to do with those of another
potter's? Just the fact that they are mugs. That distiction ends there
for me, and then I want to know how this little piece of pottery comes
alive in enough of a way to speak to me beyond price.
We use these $40 cups along with all the others we have made and kept,
and purchased from others. They are slip cast and hand painted, and part
of the reason we HAD to own them was that they are so incredible to look
at, hold, and use. The other reason we HAD to buy them; we could'nt
believe the gall of the potters to be charging so much for slip cast
work! Lesson learned. They were irresistable, and we had to have them.
And by the way, we are an artisan couple making our living solely from
our claywork, and are not of the type to often spend such sums on things
we see and want.
Just thought this might be of interest, woven into the "$5 mug, too
cheap" thread. David McDonald
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:19:51 EST Ray Aldridge
writes:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> I hope that my last response to Kevin has cleared up the confusion
> for
> anyone who might still think that I was criticising Warren MacKenzie
> for
> anything except his prices. He's a great potter, and by all
> accounts, a
> great human being. Even the potters who have to compete with him in
> his
> local market love him, which is saying a lot.
>
> That said, let me restate my main point one last time: Warren
> MacKenzie's
> prices work for him, but unless you have other sources of income,
> they
> won't work for you. In the first place, he's a potter of enormous
> skills.
> As Paul Lewing pointed out, he is prodigiously productive-- far more
> so
> than most of us, no matter how dedicated we might be. In the second
> place,
> when it gets to the end of the year and he does his books and
> discovers
> that he only cleared $15,000-- he doesn't have to live like a person
> who
> only makes 15,000 a year.
>
> Many people wrote to me offlist and commended me for trying to make
> these
> points, but these folks all said that they were too smart to get
> involved
> in the exchange of flak that would surely result. I wasn't that
> smart, but
> I'm sure I will eventually get used to my new role as ClayArt
> AntiChrist.
> But anyway, among these emails were numerous comments indicating
> that the
> writers deeply resented other potters whose prices were
> unrealistically
> low, and this is a point I'd like to address.
>
> The most common scenario was the resentment generated among fulltime
> potters for part-time potters who made and sold mugs at shows for
> well
> under $10. The writers seemed to feel that these potters were
> taking bread
> from the mouths of the fulltime potters' children.
>
> But I don't really think so, for a couple reasons. For one thing,
> if
> you're a fulltime potter, then all things being equal, you're
> probably much
> more skilled than most part-timers. (Of course there are some
> extremely
> talented part-timers, but these folks tend to charge higher prices.)
> So
> even if your mugs are priced at twice the lowball price of the
> part-timer
> in the next booth, they will be twice as good, and many folks (the
> ones who
> buy the most pottery) will be able to see that difference. But of
> course,
> we're all familiar with the customer who won't know the difference,
> and who
> is buying primarily on price. What about her?
>
> As Elizabeth mentioned, sometimes it might be worth making cheap
> mugs as a
> loss leader, to get a customer to make that first pottery purchase.
> But
> here's an even better idea. Let someone else make that mug, and
> take the
> loss on it. Then next year, when that customer comes around, she
> will have
> had the experience of owning a handmade mug for a year, and she will
> be
> better educated and more willing to see the merits of your work. In
> fact,
> several folks have made the point that MacKenzie serves to educate
> the
> people in his area in the virtues of handmade pottery, because they
> will
> buy his inexpensive work more readily than work priced more
> conventionally.
>
> So don't resent potters who are able to charge low prices for their
> wares.
> Be grateful they exist, because they're laying the groundwork for
> people to
> appreciate your own more expensive work.
>
> And besides that, they buy a lot of pottery with the money they
> earn. If
> you resent them, they'll sense it, and go buy it from someone like
> me, who
> is glad to see them.
>
> Ray
>
> Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
> http://www.goodpots.com
David McDonald
Limberlost Pottery
721 First Street
Prescott,AZ 86301
(520)778-7854 claydog@juno.com
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Kathryn L Farmer on fri 24 mar 00
:)
I believe in investing most in the things we use most often. Any chance you
could share a picture of those $40 slip cast mugs with us?
Kathryn
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McDonald"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Prices, mug prices
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> When is a mug just a mug?
> When we as potters buy other potter's pots, I think we are saying
that
> there is something extraordinary about them. Especially if we don't even
> know the potter, and are'nt buying the work because of the potter's
> reputation.
> This was the case when my wife and I purchased two slip cast
coffee cups
> at $40 each during our visit to a studio in Santa Fe last year. My point;
> in considering pricing of functional pots, I personally would prefer to
> see more attention put on how we, and others, respond to the work we are
> seeing. Clearly this husband and wife team, with 4 employees, produced
> alot of pots(quantity and variety), and knew that enough people would
> find them irresistable to sell them all regularly, as is the case for
> them. Every day use items, such as cups and mugs, need'nt be thought of
> as just cups and mugs. What do my mugs have to do with those of another
> potter's? Just the fact that they are mugs. That distiction ends there
> for me, and then I want to know how this little piece of pottery comes
> alive in enough of a way to speak to me beyond price.
> We use these $40 cups along with all the others we have made and
kept,
> and purchased from others. They are slip cast and hand painted, and part
> of the reason we HAD to own them was that they are so incredible to look
> at, hold, and use. The other reason we HAD to buy them; we could'nt
> believe the gall of the potters to be charging so much for slip cast
> work! Lesson learned. They were irresistable, and we had to have them.
> And by the way, we are an artisan couple making our living solely from
> our claywork, and are not of the type to often spend such sums on things
> we see and want.
> Just thought this might be of interest, woven into the "$5 mug,
too
> cheap" thread. David McDonald
>
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:19:51 EST Ray Aldridge
> writes:
> > ----------------------------Original
> > message----------------------------
> > I hope that my last response to Kevin has cleared up the confusion
> > for
> > anyone who might still think that I was criticising Warren MacKenzie
> > for
> > anything except his prices. He's a great potter, and by all
> > accounts, a
> > great human being. Even the potters who have to compete with him in
> > his
> > local market love him, which is saying a lot.
> >
> > That said, let me restate my main point one last time: Warren
> > MacKenzie's
> > prices work for him, but unless you have other sources of income,
> > they
> > won't work for you. In the first place, he's a potter of enormous
> > skills.
> > As Paul Lewing pointed out, he is prodigiously productive-- far more
> > so
> > than most of us, no matter how dedicated we might be. In the second
> > place,
> > when it gets to the end of the year and he does his books and
> > discovers
> > that he only cleared $15,000-- he doesn't have to live like a person
> > who
> > only makes 15,000 a year.
> >
> > Many people wrote to me offlist and commended me for trying to make
> > these
> > points, but these folks all said that they were too smart to get
> > involved
> > in the exchange of flak that would surely result. I wasn't that
> > smart, but
> > I'm sure I will eventually get used to my new role as ClayArt
> > AntiChrist.
> > But anyway, among these emails were numerous comments indicating
> > that the
> > writers deeply resented other potters whose prices were
> > unrealistically
> > low, and this is a point I'd like to address.
> >
> > The most common scenario was the resentment generated among fulltime
> > potters for part-time potters who made and sold mugs at shows for
> > well
> > under $10. The writers seemed to feel that these potters were
> > taking bread
> > from the mouths of the fulltime potters' children.
> >
> > But I don't really think so, for a couple reasons. For one thing,
> > if
> > you're a fulltime potter, then all things being equal, you're
> > probably much
> > more skilled than most part-timers. (Of course there are some
> > extremely
> > talented part-timers, but these folks tend to charge higher prices.)
> > So
> > even if your mugs are priced at twice the lowball price of the
> > part-timer
> > in the next booth, they will be twice as good, and many folks (the
> > ones who
> > buy the most pottery) will be able to see that difference. But of
> > course,
> > we're all familiar with the customer who won't know the difference,
> > and who
> > is buying primarily on price. What about her?
> >
> > As Elizabeth mentioned, sometimes it might be worth making cheap
> > mugs as a
> > loss leader, to get a customer to make that first pottery purchase.
> > But
> > here's an even better idea. Let someone else make that mug, and
> > take the
> > loss on it. Then next year, when that customer comes around, she
> > will have
> > had the experience of owning a handmade mug for a year, and she will
> > be
> > better educated and more willing to see the merits of your work. In
> > fact,
> > several folks have made the point that MacKenzie serves to educate
> > the
> > people in his area in the virtues of handmade pottery, because they
> > will
> > buy his inexpensive work more readily than work priced more
> > conventionally.
> >
> > So don't resent potters who are able to charge low prices for their
> > wares.
> > Be grateful they exist, because they're laying the groundwork for
> > people to
> > appreciate your own more expensive work.
> >
> > And besides that, they buy a lot of pottery with the money they
> > earn. If
> > you resent them, they'll sense it, and go buy it from someone like
> > me, who
> > is glad to see them.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
> > http://www.goodpots.com
>
> David McDonald
> Limberlost Pottery
> 721 First Street
> Prescott,AZ 86301
> (520)778-7854 claydog@juno.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
David McDonald on sat 25 mar 00
Kathryn,
I'd love to share a pix with you of the mugs, but have no way to post
it. Can't even remember the name of the pottery where we got them a the
moment! Real close to Santa Fe Clay, in Santa Fe. David
On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:11:17 EST Kathryn L Farmer
writes:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> :)
>
> I believe in investing most in the things we use most often. Any
> chance you
> could share a picture of those $40 slip cast mugs with us?
>
> Kathryn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David McDonald"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Prices, mug prices
>
>
> > ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> > When is a mug just a mug?
> > When we as potters buy other potter's pots, I think we are
> saying
> that
> > there is something extraordinary about them. Especially if we
> don't even
> > know the potter, and are'nt buying the work because of the
> potter's
> > reputation.
> > This was the case when my wife and I purchased two slip
> cast
> coffee cups
> > at $40 each during our visit to a studio in Santa Fe last year. My
> point;
> > in considering pricing of functional pots, I personally would
> prefer to
> > see more attention put on how we, and others, respond to the work
> we are
> > seeing. Clearly this husband and wife team, with 4 employees,
> produced
> > alot of pots(quantity and variety), and knew that enough people
> would
> > find them irresistable to sell them all regularly, as is the case
> for
> > them. Every day use items, such as cups and mugs, need'nt be
> thought of
> > as just cups and mugs. What do my mugs have to do with those of
> another
> > potter's? Just the fact that they are mugs. That distiction ends
> there
> > for me, and then I want to know how this little piece of pottery
> comes
> > alive in enough of a way to speak to me beyond price.
> > We use these $40 cups along with all the others we have
> made and
> kept,
> > and purchased from others. They are slip cast and hand painted,
> and part
> > of the reason we HAD to own them was that they are so incredible
> to look
> > at, hold, and use. The other reason we HAD to buy them; we
> could'nt
> > believe the gall of the potters to be charging so much for slip
> cast
> > work! Lesson learned. They were irresistable, and we had to have
> them.
> > And by the way, we are an artisan couple making our living solely
> from
> > our claywork, and are not of the type to often spend such sums on
> things
> > we see and want.
> > Just thought this might be of interest, woven into the "$5
> mug,
> too
> > cheap" thread. David McDonald
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:19:51 EST Ray Aldridge
>
> > writes:
> > > ----------------------------Original
> > > message----------------------------
> > > I hope that my last response to Kevin has cleared up the
> confusion
> > > for
> > > anyone who might still think that I was criticising Warren
> MacKenzie
> > > for
> > > anything except his prices. He's a great potter, and by all
> > > accounts, a
> > > great human being. Even the potters who have to compete with
> him in
> > > his
> > > local market love him, which is saying a lot.
> > >
> > > That said, let me restate my main point one last time: Warren
> > > MacKenzie's
> > > prices work for him, but unless you have other sources of
> income,
> > > they
> > > won't work for you. In the first place, he's a potter of
> enormous
> > > skills.
> > > As Paul Lewing pointed out, he is prodigiously productive-- far
> more
> > > so
> > > than most of us, no matter how dedicated we might be. In the
> second
> > > place,
> > > when it gets to the end of the year and he does his books and
> > > discovers
> > > that he only cleared $15,000-- he doesn't have to live like a
> person
> > > who
> > > only makes 15,000 a year.
> > >
> > > Many people wrote to me offlist and commended me for trying to
> make
> > > these
> > > points, but these folks all said that they were too smart to get
> > > involved
> > > in the exchange of flak that would surely result. I wasn't that
> > > smart, but
> > > I'm sure I will eventually get used to my new role as ClayArt
> > > AntiChrist.
> > > But anyway, among these emails were numerous comments indicating
> > > that the
> > > writers deeply resented other potters whose prices were
> > > unrealistically
> > > low, and this is a point I'd like to address.
> > >
> > > The most common scenario was the resentment generated among
> fulltime
> > > potters for part-time potters who made and sold mugs at shows
> for
> > > well
> > > under $10. The writers seemed to feel that these potters were
> > > taking bread
> > > from the mouths of the fulltime potters' children.
> > >
> > > But I don't really think so, for a couple reasons. For one
> thing,
> > > if
> > > you're a fulltime potter, then all things being equal, you're
> > > probably much
> > > more skilled than most part-timers. (Of course there are some
> > > extremely
> > > talented part-timers, but these folks tend to charge higher
> prices.)
> > > So
> > > even if your mugs are priced at twice the lowball price of the
> > > part-timer
> > > in the next booth, they will be twice as good, and many folks
> (the
> > > ones who
> > > buy the most pottery) will be able to see that difference. But
> of
> > > course,
> > > we're all familiar with the customer who won't know the
> difference,
> > > and who
> > > is buying primarily on price. What about her?
> > >
> > > As Elizabeth mentioned, sometimes it might be worth making cheap
> > > mugs as a
> > > loss leader, to get a customer to make that first pottery
> purchase.
> > > But
> > > here's an even better idea. Let someone else make that mug, and
> > > take the
> > > loss on it. Then next year, when that customer comes around,
> she
> > > will have
> > > had the experience of owning a handmade mug for a year, and she
> will
> > > be
> > > better educated and more willing to see the merits of your work.
> In
> > > fact,
> > > several folks have made the point that MacKenzie serves to
> educate
> > > the
> > > people in his area in the virtues of handmade pottery, because
> they
> > > will
> > > buy his inexpensive work more readily than work priced more
> > > conventionally.
> > >
> > > So don't resent potters who are able to charge low prices for
> their
> > > wares.
> > > Be grateful they exist, because they're laying the groundwork
> for
> > > people to
> > > appreciate your own more expensive work.
> > >
> > > And besides that, they buy a lot of pottery with the money they
> > > earn. If
> > > you resent them, they'll sense it, and go buy it from someone
> like
> > > me, who
> > > is glad to see them.
> > >
> > > Ray
> > >
> > > Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
> > > http://www.goodpots.com
> >
> > David McDonald
> > Limberlost Pottery
> > 721 First Street
> > Prescott,AZ 86301
> > (520)778-7854 claydog@juno.com
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
David McDonald
Limberlost Pottery
721 First Street
Prescott,AZ 86301
(520)778-7854 claydog@juno.com
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
patrick conrey on sun 26 mar 00
Just returned from NCECA and Friday, as we walked by the room where the
mugs were being sold, ther was a sign that the mugs sold out. Grand!
Better yet, 600 plus mugs sold for a total of $14,000 plus. Do the math
- the prices averaged above $20 per.
Jim Brooks on mon 27 mar 00
Patrick..it has been my experience that potters will pay a lot more for a
coffee mug than anyone else.!!!!!!!!. Makes you wonder.. does the rest of
the world know something we don't.. or do we know something that we are not
telling..?
Ray Aldridge on tue 28 mar 00
At 06:25 PM 3/26/00 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Just returned from NCECA and Friday, as we walked by the room where the
>mugs were being sold, ther was a sign that the mugs sold out. Grand!
>
>Better yet, 600 plus mugs sold for a total of $14,000 plus. Do the math
>- the prices averaged above $20 per.
>
Interesting! I couldn't go, but I did send one of my mugs with a friend.
I'd guess that some of the mugs by notable potters went for a lot more than
the average, and some went a good bit cheaper. It would be fun to know
what one's mug sold for....
Or maybe not.
Ray
Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
http://www.goodpots.com
Earl Brunner on tue 28 mar 00
I stayed with my daughter and son-in-law during NCECA and
the subject of
mug prices came up. I almost started a family fight. My
medical student son-in-law could not fathom paying anywhere
near $20.00 for a mug. And he
was upset that my daughter (his wife) said that she wouldn't
have a problem paying $20.00 for the right mug.
Jim Brooks wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Patrick..it has been my experience that potters will pay a lot more for a
> coffee mug than anyone else.!!!!!!!!. Makes you wonder.. does the rest of
> the world know something we don't.. or do we know something that we are not
> telling..?
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Bob Hamm on tue 28 mar 00
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Patrick..it has been my experience that potters will pay a lot more for a
>coffee mug than anyone else.!!!!!!!!. Makes you wonder.. does the rest of
>the world know something we don't.. or do we know something that we are not
>telling..?
Maybe it has to do with a knowledge of the process we potters possess.
Another group that seems willing to pay for pots are those who have taken
pottery classes but are not potters. It would seem even a bit of knowledge
creates appreciation.
I do not think the retail outlets I have sold to have spent a lot of time
educating the public about what the pottery process involves. Potters do
not seem to either. In my area potters get together to sell pots and share
information and knowlegde with each other. It is more by accident then
design that the public learns anything of the process. Is it a surprise
that so many people are resistant to pottery prices. Would you pay $20.00
for a mug when you could get one for $2.00 at Walmart if you did not know
what made them different.
I am presently working with a group of local potters to establish an annual
clay festival. A major component would be public education. We are
considering the different ways that we can communicate the variety of
knowledge and phyiscal training required to produce a well made pot. While
it will not be possible to impart the detailed understanding we as potters
possess, I hope we can at least leave them with a fuller appreciation of
what goes into the making of pottery.
Maybe its time to actively educate the public and make education a part of
our marketing plan.
Bob Hamm
Super Mud Works
Kelowna BC, Canada
ph (250) 765-8876
email hamm@direct.ca
Bobbi Bassett on wed 29 mar 00
In a message dated 03/27/2000 3:01:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JIMV062@aol.com writes:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Patrick..it has been my experience that potters will pay a lot more for a
> coffee mug than anyone else.!!!!!!!!. Makes you wonder.. does the rest of
> the world know something we don't.. or do we know something that we are not
> telling..?
I'm not Patrick, but I feel a need to reply. Obviously we know something the
rest of the world doesn't. WE POTTERS know the artistry, the craftsmanship,
the mechanics, the time and long hours, the sweat, the worry, AND THE LOVE
that is put into a hand thrown or shaped clay vessel. Don't you feel sorry
for the rest of the world? It's our little secret.
Bobbi in PA where it's finally beginning to rain again
| |
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