John Baymore on tue 28 mar 00
------------------
(clip)
Lets say these two potters are equal in all respects, both can throw as
well, and as quickly. Now what happens after say a month when both have
made
1000 mugs or whatever. Warren MacKenzie will no doubt manage to sell all
his
mugs at say =2410 each but what happens to Shimaoka 1000 mugs. They are
priced
at =24500 each, and I doubt if many have sold, and the following month he
makes another 1000 mugs. WHERE DOES HE KEEP THEM UNTIL HE FINDS A MARKET IF
EVER??? Also Warren MacKenzie has earned =2410,000 (less costs) with his
months mugs but how much has the other guy made in that month.?
In other words I think sales need to keep up with our production to a
certain extent.
(snip)
Hi Jean. I have been terribly busy and am catching up on a huge stack of
unread CLAYART Digests.... so this might have been mentioned by
now.................
Your point above is probably pretty valid if it were more a direct
comparison of two potters, BOTH here in the USA, producing at the high end
and the low end of the pricing scheme. Mel talks about that concept a
lot...... the well-known =22gallery potter=22 who can't have a backyard =
studio
sale but whose work is priced for thousands of dollars in the major
galleries. But he/she only sells a couple of pieces a year....while the
back yard sales potter is outselling him/her=21 All too true.
However..... comparing Shimaoka-sensei's situation in Japan to MacKenzie's
here in the USA might be a bit of apples to oranges =3Cg=3E.
Shimaoka-sensei has NO problem in selling everything his studio produces,
and the high price is not particularrly an issue that retards any sales.
In fact, like many =22prestigious=22 things..... the high price point is an
asset. It helps give the work an air of exclusivity...... and makes the
work a good investment. A lot of =22market position=22 factor is involved =
as a
Living National Treasure in Japan, and he is under a lot of pressure to
maintain very high prices.
The market for all pottery in Japan is QUITE different from that here in
the US. Hard to truly appreciate until you've been there and see what goes
on. VAST amounts of pottery is produced .... and it is readily purchased.
Pricing is on a completely different scale. When I was there visiting,
Shimaoka-sensei was just opening a kiln and it was all sold before the
doors were out. Simple yunomi (with signed box) were about =24800 (US) in
1996. Many vases in the 12-15 inch high range fetched about =
=2425,000-35,000
(US) and more.
I had the pleasure of visiting the Pucker Gallery on Newbury St. in Boston
the last time Shimaoka-sensei was there having a show. MacKenzie also had
a small exhibition in one of the Pucker's smaller upstairs galleries
ocurring at the same time. Both shows were pretty much sold out a couple
hours after the doors opened. Mac's at his typical low
prices.......Shimaoka-sensei at his high ones (but lower than in Japan).
Shimaoka-sensei mentions in his introduction to a book on MacKenzie his
fondness for Mac's adherence to the inexpensive prices typical of the folk
potter. There is a wistfullness in his comments. I think sensei is just a
tad envious of Mac's ABILITY to keep his prices low. Shimaoka-sensei is a
bit of a =22prisoner=22 of his culture and his success. He MUST maintain =
very
high prices...... to keep the proper professional respect, to protect the
huge investments of all his customers, and to maintain the proper high
status for the =22office=22 of Living National Treasure for the government. =
So
while Shimaoka-sensei is certainly very well off........... he is trapped
by the very system that makes him so successful, and has paid a price of
freedom for that success. Tradition is powerful, even if you are an
internationally recognized ceramic artist ..... not a village mingei
potter.
Mac pretty much sells all his stuff. So does Shimaoka-sensei. Both are
top-of-the-field potters.....just in two different cultures with vastly
different appreciations for the arts. MacKenzie is reasonably well off in
American middle class-dom from a combination of his university retirement
plus his pot sales. Shimaoka-sensei is a multi-millionare from his
governmental L.N.T. subsidy and his pottery sales.
So in the example you gave, MacKenzie grossed =2410,000.......... but
Shimaoka-sensei grossed =24500,000. (Shimaoka-sensei's expenses WERE far
higher than Mac's=21) And that sort of (unfortunately) is a bit of a
barometer on the difference in the cultural appreciation of pottery making
between the USA and Japan =3Cg=3E.
One thing is for sure here......................both of 'em make darn nice
pots=21 Hopefully they both will be around for quite a few years yet,
blessing the world with even more great pieces.
Best,
............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.com
=22Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000=22
HD on wed 29 mar 00
Excellent assessment John.
Doing well here in Tokyo at my first exhibition selling goblets etc that
take me 4 1/2 hours each to make...selling for $35
Yes, I'm not giving up my day job
Dan considine
At 01:22 PM 03/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>------------------
>(clip)
>Lets say these two potters are equal in all respects, both can throw as
>well, and as quickly. Now what happens after say a month when both have
>made
>1000 mugs or whatever. Warren MacKenzie will no doubt manage to sell all
>his
>mugs at say $10 each but what happens to Shimaoka 1000 mugs. They are
>priced
>at $500 each, and I doubt if many have sold, and the following month he
>makes another 1000 mugs. WHERE DOES HE KEEP THEM UNTIL HE FINDS A MARKET IF
>EVER??? Also Warren MacKenzie has earned $10,000 (less costs) with his
>months mugs but how much has the other guy made in that month.?
>In other words I think sales need to keep up with our production to a
>certain extent.
>(snip)
>
>Hi Jean. I have been terribly busy and am catching up on a huge stack of
>unread CLAYART Digests.... so this might have been mentioned by
>now.................
>
>Your point above is probably pretty valid if it were more a direct
>comparison of two potters, BOTH here in the USA, producing at the high end
>and the low end of the pricing scheme. Mel talks about that concept a
>lot...... the well-known "gallery potter" who can't have a backyard studio
>sale but whose work is priced for thousands of dollars in the major
>galleries. But he/she only sells a couple of pieces a year....while the
>back yard sales potter is outselling him/her! All too true.
>
>However..... comparing Shimaoka-sensei's situation in Japan to MacKenzie's
>here in the USA might be a bit of apples to oranges .
>
>Shimaoka-sensei has NO problem in selling everything his studio produces,
>and the high price is not particularrly an issue that retards any sales.
>In fact, like many "prestigious" things..... the high price point is an
>asset. It helps give the work an air of exclusivity...... and makes the
>work a good investment. A lot of "market position" factor is involved as a
>Living National Treasure in Japan, and he is under a lot of pressure to
>maintain very high prices.
>
>The market for all pottery in Japan is QUITE different from that here in
>the US. Hard to truly appreciate until you've been there and see what goes
>on. VAST amounts of pottery is produced .... and it is readily purchased.
>Pricing is on a completely different scale. When I was there visiting,
>Shimaoka-sensei was just opening a kiln and it was all sold before the
>doors were out. Simple yunomi (with signed box) were about $800 (US) in
>1996. Many vases in the 12-15 inch high range fetched about $25,000-35,000
>(US) and more.
>
>I had the pleasure of visiting the Pucker Gallery on Newbury St. in Boston
>the last time Shimaoka-sensei was there having a show. MacKenzie also had
>a small exhibition in one of the Pucker's smaller upstairs galleries
>ocurring at the same time. Both shows were pretty much sold out a couple
>hours after the doors opened. Mac's at his typical low
>prices.......Shimaoka-sensei at his high ones (but lower than in Japan).
>
>Shimaoka-sensei mentions in his introduction to a book on MacKenzie his
>fondness for Mac's adherence to the inexpensive prices typical of the folk
>potter. There is a wistfullness in his comments. I think sensei is just a
>tad envious of Mac's ABILITY to keep his prices low. Shimaoka-sensei is a
>bit of a "prisoner" of his culture and his success. He MUST maintain very
>high prices...... to keep the proper professional respect, to protect the
>huge investments of all his customers, and to maintain the proper high
>status for the "office" of Living National Treasure for the government. So
>while Shimaoka-sensei is certainly very well off........... he is trapped
>by the very system that makes him so successful, and has paid a price of
>freedom for that success. Tradition is powerful, even if you are an
>internationally recognized ceramic artist ..... not a village mingei
>potter.
>
>Mac pretty much sells all his stuff. So does Shimaoka-sensei. Both are
>top-of-the-field potters.....just in two different cultures with vastly
>different appreciations for the arts. MacKenzie is reasonably well off in
>American middle class-dom from a combination of his university retirement
>plus his pot sales. Shimaoka-sensei is a multi-millionare from his
>governmental L.N.T. subsidy and his pottery sales.
>
>So in the example you gave, MacKenzie grossed $10,000.......... but
>Shimaoka-sensei grossed $500,000. (Shimaoka-sensei's expenses WERE far
>higher than Mac's!) And that sort of (unfortunately) is a bit of a
>barometer on the difference in the cultural appreciation of pottery making
>between the USA and Japan .
>
>One thing is for sure here......................both of 'em make darn nice
>pots! Hopefully they both will be around for quite a few years yet,
>blessing the world with even more great pieces.
>
>
>Best,
>
>............................john
>
>John Baymore
>River Bend Pottery
>22 Riverbend Way
>Wilton, NH 03086 USA
>
>603-654-2752 (s)
>800-900-1110 (s)
>
>JBaymore@compuserve.com
>John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
>
>"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
>2000"
Daniel P. Considine, Ph.D.
Waseda University
102 Century Mansion
4-23-11 Irumagawa
Sayama City, Japan, 350-1305
Ph/Fax (81) 0429 54 2401
Cell (keitai) 0908 105 8750
I started with nothing
and I still have most of it left.
Aiko Ichimura on wed 29 mar 00
Hi all,
I appreciated John Baymore's comment about MacKenzie/Shimaoka comparison
very much. I grew up near Mashiko where Shimaoka lives and am familiar
with the general situation as far as the pottery goes.
I have felt many times that the price of pottery in the US are rather
reasonable
or very affordable. As I have mentioned before I mistook the price of tea
cup in a Mashiko
pottery shop: I thought the tea bowl was 350 yen( about $3.00) but it was
actually 350,0000.00 yen
($30,000.00). I was quickly pointed out by my sister-in-law. No wonder!. It
was by Hamada.
I was reading a book about pottery in Japanese and it explained that
the peculiar thing about the Japanese pottery. If the pot or bowl does not
have a wooden box
with the potter's signature(Hakogaki) on the box the value of the pot or
bowl is reduced considerably
even it's proven the authenticity of the maker. So the author of the book
hinted that if
you want to own , say a Hamada piece, you might ask an antique dealer to
look
for a Hamada and you don't care if there is no box and hakogaki . You might
be able to
own a Hamada very reasonably. This may no longer be true( the book was
written many years ago.
Hamada was still alive then.
The author also visited the Hamada studio in Mashiko and made a NHK TV
documentary
about Hamada and his work. He was told by Hamada that he helps to make
hundreds of
pots and bowls but he picks out a few pieces out of kiln that he was happy
of the result and put
his signature and re-fire them as his pieces. The rest are sold as ordinary
pieces with
affordable prices with no Hamada signature. The author pointed out that if
you have good
eyes, probably you could pick Hamada pieces with affordable prices if you
don't mind
for not having his signature.
Shimada was Hamada's student and he very struggled to develop his own style
for many years. Shimada commented in a book that Hamada encouraged him to
break from the Hamada style pottery and find his own. I am so proud of
Mashiko
potters. I've heard so many stories about Hamada while I was growing up.
I am so envious of Lee Love who is working in Mashiko and enjoying
the life of potter/farmer(aspect of).
If you ever visit Japan, include Mashiko and the Hamada house in the list of
must-visit places.
Aiko Ichimura
NW DC 20036 USA
aikop@erols.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John Baymore
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 1:22 PM
Subject: MacKenzie / Shimaoka-sensei
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
------------------
(clip)
Lets say these two potters are equal in all respects, both can throw as
well, and as quickly. Now what happens after say a month when both have
made
1000 mugs or whatever. Warren MacKenzie will no doubt manage to sell all
his
mugs at say $10 each but what happens to Shimaoka 1000 mugs. They are
priced
at $500 each, and I doubt if many have sold, and the following month he
makes another 1000 mugs. WHERE DOES HE KEEP THEM UNTIL HE FINDS A MARKET IF
EVER??? Also Warren MacKenzie has earned $10,000 (less costs) with his
months mugs but how much has the other guy made in that month.?
In other words I think sales need to keep up with our production to a
certain extent.
(snip)
Hi Jean. I have been terribly busy and am catching up on a huge stack of
unread CLAYART Digests.... so this might have been mentioned by
now.................
Your point above is probably pretty valid if it were more a direct
comparison of two potters, BOTH here in the USA, producing at the high end
and the low end of the pricing scheme. Mel talks about that concept a
lot...... the well-known "gallery potter" who can't have a backyard studio
sale but whose work is priced for thousands of dollars in the major
galleries. But he/she only sells a couple of pieces a year....while the
back yard sales potter is outselling him/her! All too true.
However..... comparing Shimaoka-sensei's situation in Japan to MacKenzie's
here in the USA might be a bit of apples to oranges .
Shimaoka-sensei has NO problem in selling everything his studio produces,
and the high price is not particularrly an issue that retards any sales.
In fact, like many "prestigious" things..... the high price point is an
asset. It helps give the work an air of exclusivity...... and makes the
work a good investment. A lot of "market position" factor is involved as a
Living National Treasure in Japan, and he is under a lot of pressure to
maintain very high prices.
The market for all pottery in Japan is QUITE different from that here in
the US. Hard to truly appreciate until you've been there and see what goes
on. VAST amounts of pottery is produced .... and it is readily purchased.
Pricing is on a completely different scale. When I was there visiting,
Shimaoka-sensei was just opening a kiln and it was all sold before the
doors were out. Simple yunomi (with signed box) were about $800 (US) in
1996. Many vases in the 12-15 inch high range fetched about $25,000-35,000
(US) and more.
I had the pleasure of visiting the Pucker Gallery on Newbury St. in Boston
the last time Shimaoka-sensei was there having a show. MacKenzie also had
a small exhibition in one of the Pucker's smaller upstairs galleries
ocurring at the same time. Both shows were pretty much sold out a couple
hours after the doors opened. Mac's at his typical low
prices.......Shimaoka-sensei at his high ones (but lower than in Japan).
Shimaoka-sensei mentions in his introduction to a book on MacKenzie his
fondness for Mac's adherence to the inexpensive prices typical of the folk
potter. There is a wistfullness in his comments. I think sensei is just a
tad envious of Mac's ABILITY to keep his prices low. Shimaoka-sensei is a
bit of a "prisoner" of his culture and his success. He MUST maintain very
high prices...... to keep the proper professional respect, to protect the
huge investments of all his customers, and to maintain the proper high
status for the "office" of Living National Treasure for the government. So
while Shimaoka-sensei is certainly very well off........... he is trapped
by the very system that makes him so successful, and has paid a price of
freedom for that success. Tradition is powerful, even if you are an
internationally recognized ceramic artist ..... not a village mingei
potter.
Mac pretty much sells all his stuff. So does Shimaoka-sensei. Both are
top-of-the-field potters.....just in two different cultures with vastly
different appreciations for the arts. MacKenzie is reasonably well off in
American middle class-dom from a combination of his university retirement
plus his pot sales. Shimaoka-sensei is a multi-millionare from his
governmental L.N.T. subsidy and his pottery sales.
So in the example you gave, MacKenzie grossed $10,000.......... but
Shimaoka-sensei grossed $500,000. (Shimaoka-sensei's expenses WERE far
higher than Mac's!) And that sort of (unfortunately) is a bit of a
barometer on the difference in the cultural appreciation of pottery making
between the USA and Japan .
One thing is for sure here......................both of 'em make darn nice
pots! Hopefully they both will be around for quite a few years yet,
blessing the world with even more great pieces.
Best,
............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000"
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