elizabeth priddy on sun 9 apr 00
probably a limiting factor for other nationalities than american is that the lis
I am curious, isn't english commonly spoken around the world? or is this just a
misperception on my part. I was influenced
towards the idea that english is usually the
most common second language in the world by
speaking to many native chinese in english.
and many other nationals that I have met say
that they learned english as a second language
in school. In american schools, the second
language most popular is either french or
spanish, but i bet that the most common second
language taught internationally is english and
that makes it the better candidate as language
of choice, simply by volume.
I wish I had some statistics...
---
Elizabeth Priddy
email: epriddy@usa.net
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:35:24 L. P. Skeen wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Ferrenc wrote:
>
>Subject: Re: What is clayart
>
>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> > I have only been on Clayart for about 4 months. I've learned a few
>things
>> > and hopefully helped a few people and would like to continue this. Never
>> the less I WOULD like to see an improvement. I would like Clart to be
>less
>> North American and more international.
>
>
>Dear Ferrenc,
>
>This IS an international list. Yes, there are more N. Americans than others
>on the list, but the list is not in any way exclusive and is accessible to
>anyone who has email. If you know more ceramists from other countries,
>PLEASE have them join; they are welcome and provide a very nice access to
>information about their countries that would otherwise be missing. :)
>
>L
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
HD on mon 10 apr 00
Check UN stats almost 1 billion people speak English..if you exclude the
populations of those countries where it is the native tongue you'll find
that most are using English as a second language....
All major scientific and technical journals are published in English...as a
matter of fact the leading Robotics journal published in Japan cannot be
found in Japanese...only English.
One of my students is a leading TB specialist (Japanese) is gong to Beijing
this week...giving her report in English.
As I tell my students ...go to any international airport and you will see
two languages..one is inevitably English...its the Latin of the digital age
DPC
PS FYI check the best German, French or any other benchmark dictionary and
you will find that the OED outstrips them by many fold in sheer number of
words.
At 08:52 PM 04/09/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>probably a limiting factor for other nationalities than american is that
>the lis
>
>I am curious, isn't english commonly spoken around the world? or is this
>just a
>misperception on my part. I was influenced
>towards the idea that english is usually the
>most common second language in the world by
>speaking to many native chinese in english.
>
>and many other nationals that I have met say
>that they learned english as a second language
>in school. In american schools, the second
>language most popular is either french or
>spanish, but i bet that the most common second
>language taught internationally is english and
>that makes it the better candidate as language
>of choice, simply by volume.
>
>I wish I had some statistics...
>---
>Elizabeth Priddy
>
>email: epriddy@usa.net
>http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
>Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:35:24 L. P. Skeen wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Ferrenc wrote:
> >
> >Subject: Re: What is clayart
> >
> >
> >> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >> > I have only been on Clayart for about 4 months. I've learned a few
> >things
> >> > and hopefully helped a few people and would like to continue this. Never
> >> the less I WOULD like to see an improvement. I would like Clart to be
> >less
> >> North American and more international.
> >
> >
> >Dear Ferrenc,
> >
> >This IS an international list. Yes, there are more N. Americans than others
> >on the list, but the list is not in any way exclusive and is accessible to
> >anyone who has email. If you know more ceramists from other countries,
> >PLEASE have them join; they are welcome and provide a very nice access to
> >information about their countries that would otherwise be missing. :)
> >
> >L
> >
>
>
>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Daniel P. Considine, Ph.D.
Waseda University
102 Century Mansion
4-23-11 Irumagawa
Sayama City, Japan, 350-1305
Ph/Fax (81) 0429 54 2401
Cell (keitai) 0908 105 8750
I started with nothing
and I still have most of it left.
Antoinette Badenhorst on mon 10 apr 00
Elizabeth, you are right about English, although I think French compete with
English. In Europe you can add German to the list. The problem though is that
learning the language in school does not make it a fluent language. South
Africa for instance had English as one of two official languages, but as a
child I learnt "he is and you are" as the essence of the language. I never
had confidence to speak English till I realized that I am ahead of persons
that can understand my broken English, but cannot talk to me in my native
language. That take the self consciousness away. Many times school systems
concentrate so hard on the grammar that they forget to teach the children the
language to speak. To me the big trouble comes with the vocabulary that also
differs from one English to the other. I want to encourage potters that only
understand and write a little in English to take part in Clayart. Ceramic is
a universal language and if we understand not in full, we can communicate
further till we understand. I think we can learn from each other across the
world.
Antoinette.
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,MS
38866
Janet Kaiser on tue 11 apr 00
It is known as "linguistic colonialism" and it is the result of British
colonialism and expansion up to the end of the 19th century. Once again...
Those bloody Brits to blame.
And their attitude that the natives should understand them (not vice versa)
has been taken up by all English speaker nations to this very day. Always
shout at a foreigner... They understand better then! Use pidgin English...
They will understand that better too. Use as many idioms as you can... They
have to learn proper! And here we are e-mailing the equivalent attitude
around the world.
Just because a great many folk learn "English as a foreign language" at some
time in their lives, does not mean they are happy conversing and
communicating in it. It is usually because "needs must". I spent two years
teaching EFL to adults in Germany. They were all linguistically
challenged... No "ear" for a language and unprepared to learn the direct
method, as a child would.
I learned most of my basic German in pubs. Great fun! And all totally
relevant :-) However, it took about five years living in the country and
immersed in daily life, to become proficient enough to converse, read, write
and be fluent enough to feel confident...
I know exactly how difficult it is to put thoughts into words in a foreign
language, especially in a specialist subject like ceramics. And the audience
needs to be kind and patient. English-speaking nations are not known for
that. They are intolerant of those who do not have a 100% command of
English.
Here in Wales this attitude has been absorbed and now people who do not
speak Welsh fluently are treated like second-class citizens. And so it goes
on... I find it hard enough to get my head around some of the discussions,
so I really take my hat off to people like Antoinette and Sibylle, who
really have to battle.
Janet Kaiser - Fluent in English, Welsh and German, but wish I could speak
Japanese, Spanish, French and Swahili too.
The Chapel of Art, Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales
Home of The International Potters Path
TEL: (01766) 523570
WEB: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
EMAIL: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
Cindy Strnad on wed 12 apr 00
Janet,
I don't think English-only speaking people are unkind or arrogant. Most of
us are just lost in a foreign language. I took four years of Spanish, made
straight A's, top of the class, and I still can't speak Spanish. I could,
when I lived in Florida and could hang out with the Mexican girls to
practice. I love languages, but for me, there are other things I need to
concentrate on.
You're right that learning a language well requires cultural immersion. How
many people in the US have the opportunity to do that? You travel several
hundred miles and you're in a different country that speaks a different
language. I can travel thousands of miles and never encounter a culture with
a language different from mine. Here, there is very little need to learn
another language, and very little opportunity. Would you learn how to drive
if you knew you would very seldom have the opportunity to operate a car?
Like you, I do wish I had the opportunity to learn more languages, but for
now, it's just not there.
Cindy Strnad
earthenv@gwtc.net
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
Monique Duclos on wed 12 apr 00
Bravo Janet,
I wish I could express myself like you are in English. Please all be patient
with us "extraterrestre"
@micalement
Monique in Canada
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Martin Howard on tue 18 apr 00
A list I had recently showed that English/American speakers were third in
the world after Mandarin Chinese and Spanish.
The statistics are around somewhere, but not to hand at present. Spanish had
overtaken English, due perhaps to increased birth rates in RC countries.
The important issue is the misconception as to what is meant when someone
says "I speak English". It might be only a few words, but for commercial or
other reasons the person wants to be known as an English Speaker. So
statistics are not reliable.
When you are in a foreign country, such as I have been in Poland, Czech
Republic, Hungary etc, and you are not travelling with an english speaking
group, then you really discover that the conception produced back home that
"everyone speaks english" is just plain wrong. It's like saying in the UK
that everyone speaks French. We perhaps learnt some at school, but have not
used it, so forgotten it. We might be able to buy a loaf of bread, but to
discuss pottery would be totally beyond us.
As potters we are probably only reaching about 25% of the computer literate
and linked up potters. And that may well be an underestimate.
Do we want to reach those others who may have wonderful things to tell us?
If I translated everything on ClayArt into Esperanto and put it out on the
Esperanto web, we might reach a few more, but I would not get any potting
done and I would need a few assistants.
If everyone knew Esperanto or English we could reach the lot, IF they all
had computers and were linked up.
But you would then still have the problem of those who do not understand the
terminology used in different countries.
The only way of resolving that is by passing the terms through a third
language which is where Esperanto is particularly important and helpful.
Otherwise you have the situation of saying "pants" in both the USA and UK
and each group knowing what is meant by the word, but still having a
different thought form from the other group.
I am doing the list of Esperanto terms now and will forward it as soon as it
is ready and checked.
Clarity of language is so important in our multi-lingual world. If only we
could just use thought transference :-)
A picture is worth a thousand words. A video of an action is worth even
more.
Martin Howard
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
England
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
Don & Isao Morrill on wed 19 apr 00
At 15:43 4/18/00 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>A list I had recently showed that English/American speakers were third in
>the world after Mandarin Chinese and Spanish.
>
>The statistics are around somewhere, but not to hand at present. Spanish had
>overtaken English, due perhaps to increased birth rates in RC countries.
>
>The important issue is the misconception as to what is meant when someone
>says "I speak English". It might be only a few words, but for commercial or
>other reasons the person wants to be known as an English Speaker. So
>statistics are not reliable.
>
>When you are in a foreign country, such as I have been in Poland, Czech
>Republic, Hungary etc, and you are not travelling with an english speaking
>group, then you really discover that the conception produced back home that
>"everyone speaks english" is just plain wrong. It's like saying in the UK
>that everyone speaks French. We perhaps learnt some at school, but have not
>used it, so forgotten it. We might be able to buy a loaf of bread, but to
>discuss pottery would be totally beyond us.
>
>As potters we are probably only reaching about 25% of the computer literate
>and linked up potters. And that may well be an underestimate.
>
>Do we want to reach those others who may have wonderful things to tell us?
>
>If I translated everything on ClayArt into Esperanto and put it out on the
>Esperanto web, we might reach a few more, but I would not get any potting
>done and I would need a few assistants.
>
>If everyone knew Esperanto or English we could reach the lot, IF they all
>had computers and were linked up.
>But you would then still have the problem of those who do not understand the
>terminology used in different countries.
>The only way of resolving that is by passing the terms through a third
>language which is where Esperanto is particularly important and helpful.
>Otherwise you have the situation of saying "pants" in both the USA and UK
>and each group knowing what is meant by the word, but still having a
>different thought form from the other group.
>
>I am doing the list of Esperanto terms now and will forward it as soon as it
>is ready and checked.
>
>Clarity of language is so important in our multi-lingual world. If only we
>could just use thought transference :-)
>A picture is worth a thousand words. A video of an action is worth even
>more.
>
>Martin Howard
>Webb's Cottage Pottery
>Woolpits Road, Great Saling
>BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
>England
>
>martin@webbscottage.co.uk
>
Martin, We speak a Latin-based variant because one may follow a line
through the development of imperialisms possibly beginning with the
Phoenicians on through Rome,Spain,other European nations,GB to the United
States. Quite probably to the PRC. As a child,we were allowed to opt
between Latin,Spanish and,French. Spanish being the language of business as
French was the language of culture and Latin as the base...the Romance
languages.
Surprisingly perhaps, hundreds of millions of persons
throughout the earth,neither speak English nor have any particular reason
to do so being quite content with their local dialects.
Don m.
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
Martin Howard on thu 20 apr 00
.Don and Isao Morrill posted:-
throughout the earth,neither speak English nor have any particular reason
to do so being quite content with their local dialects.>
Yes, that is very true. It is when people who belong to a minority culture
and language wish to communicate outside of that culture that things go
wrong. That is where Esperanto, as a second language, not a first, comes
into its own. That would save time, cost less, create better communication.
After that other languages are much easier to learn, because you have broken
out of your local language and grammar rules into a neutral language, and
therefore have a good idea of how language works.
That is where english, french, german, spanish, russian etc should be; not
fighting to be the second language, or the first, except in their own
country. So many minority languages have been killed off by the major world
powers imposing their language on others as a tool of imperialism.
But for those who have no need to travel outside their boundaries, then
their local language and dialect is sufficient. They can pot in peace. But
how can we get to know them and their methods?
Martin Howard
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
England
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
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