mel jacobson on mon 1 may 00
one of the most important things to remember about
repeat throwing.
they are in shape.
and yes, even famous violin players have
terrible shoulder surgery..just like famous athletes.
i have no data on japanese throwers, i know i never
had any problems....but, i do some stretching.
without question, in oriental society...repeat work is
much more accepted than in the u.s.a., and done very
well i might add. it really is a mental thing.
my hand surgeon keeps saying that carpel tunnel problems
are due to a small carpel tunnel.
tendonitis however is a different ball game. what a great many
people attribute to carpel tunnel is tendonitis. if you don't have
night time numbness, well you do not have carpel problems.
i have had the surgery, i know that one.
mel/mn
minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
mel jacobson on mon 30 jul 01
skill, slow speed, take one's time, slow..repeat
every action.
memorize.
these are all very foreign to most americans
do it fast, sloppy, get the money, screw your neighbor.
make sure the government protects you. (did you
ever see a car just flip over by itself...must be the tires.)
well, repeat throwing is just the opposite of all the things
in the last paragraph.
planning, measuring the object that you are going to repeat.
very careful attention to shrinkage.
i use a meter stick, measure all parts. ring foot, height, width.
use simple calculations...any way you get to the end is correct.
when doing repeat shapes, it is good to keep in mind that every
bend and twist you make must be repeated...simple forms are
the best for repeat throwing.
the wooden rib that is used on the `inside` is the most important
tool you have....it opens the pot to the perfect, correct size. review
that....make sure you are doing it. the rib contains the perfect inside
profile of the pot. turning makes the perfect outside profile...but,
it makes sense to have the inside perfect first.
think of making a 25 pound, perfect sphere. how would
you throw the second one?
\well, you sure as hell would plan it. slow, slow, slow....and
of course your clay body would play a critical role. many potters
do this all day long. same pot...it is the history of throwing.
it takes about 10,000 pots to get it correct.
that is how many it took me...and those were the counted
ones. but, of course, i was a throwing dork when i arrived
in japan...a typical american boy.
but, remember, i could do everything in the studio....the workers
all did just one thing...but, they did it to perfection.
and, i could drive the car, repair the car, fix the electrics, made
a shortwave radio, could find my way around without help...
and, i knew what hurt and did not hurt....and, i was a good cook.
i was lucky...i grew up in a house where we did things. made
things. not very much money, but we did figure things out.
had to. no other way. my mom made clothes. my dad liked to say `gd it, go
do it, figure
it out, and don't stop til you do.` if we whined, we got smacked.
so, get humping...no whinning...or, i will smack you. :)
mel
my dad was alone in america at 14...the flu
epidemic of 1918 killed his father, a month later
the house burned down, killed his mother.
he figured out how to survive...did not go
to the social welfare office. he got in a box car.
left. never returned.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Ron Roy on tue 31 jul 01
And - most important of all - start with a form that has some life to it.
It's very easy to wind up with a bunch of dead pots when production
throwing.
I say learn to do them as fast as possible - takes longer to learn that way
but you have a much better chance to keep em alive.
Helps to get mad once in a while - gives you an edge. Any attitude is
better than bored.
I always feel it's better to get some variation in size and shape and keep
the forms vital - and avoid turning yourself into a machine.
Remember - it's not how many you can make that is important - it's how many
make it.
RR
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
mel jacobson on tue 31 jul 01
the wheel.
round, spinning...a tool, just a tool.
a slab roller is a tool, a kiln is a tool.
as a crafts person you learn to use your tools.
the more efficiently you use your tools, the better
your work should be. not in all cases however, some
just don't get it. but, in the long haul, quality of craftsmanship
pays big dividends.
we are coming out of a long decade of folks that teach, assume
that craft is the enemy. we are in a time when emerging artists
and crafts people do not know how to use their tools. this is a
shame. big shame.
craft is training. craft has historical models that we can look at
and work towards. the clay craft has thousands of years of
wonderful models. we should use them. look at them, take
the best and make it a part of our work.
hamada and leach were not the only potters that gave us models.
africa, china, the middle east....great examples of pots that should
give us hope.
as mr. uchida's bias spoke.
`why do so many worship the work of korean farmers, when there
are the wonderous pots of the ming dynesty to study?`
good question.
we were told that the only pots of value came from `the unknown
craftsman`. nice thought, but, not totally true.
his quest with me was to learn skill, study other pots, develop
skill and use of tools to where they became `second nature`.
when that happens, it is like driving, you just do it, without
serious thought. think if you had to teach yourself to turn
every day.
thinking and drawing become your next series. your new ideas.
new glazes and combinations. working with your wheel as a
drawing tool works like magic.
if you are struggling with your technique, wether that is the wheel,
the slab roller, hand building, coil, whatever...if you do not control
to a degree your skill, the pots suffer.
accident is just that, accident. happy or not. why have accidents
when you can learn to avoid them? it is like not listening to hank
murrow....`hey margo, i aint`a gonna try that fire down crap. i like my
pots half done.
how many times do nils, kurt, myself hear this one.
`my kiln stalls at cone 3. so i fire it the same every time..it always
stalls at 3.
FOR GODS SAKE, FIRE IT A DIFFERENT WAY. TRY ANYTHING.
BUT, DON'T LET IT GET STUCK. add three feet to your stack, or
take off three feet of your stack. open the flu, close the flu, add
gas, take away gas pressure...but, do something.
`no, no, i always fire it that way. bill at CBU told me that this was the
way.`
course it does not work, but, what the hell.`
kilns are tools...you learn to fire them...learning, what a concept.
in many places and colleges it has stopped happening.
art, great thoughts. bullshit.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
artimater on tue 31 jul 01
Ron Roy wrote:
I always feel it's better to get some variation in size and shape and =
keep
the forms vital - and avoid turning yourself into a machine.
I second that emotion.....As I have said many times; I don't do the =
same piece twice....I may do a hundred cups in a row, but I try to add =
some new twist to each one......Uhhh yes, I can control the clay....I =
arrived at that ability by doing lots of pots.....I have tried perfect =
repetition a couple of times but find it usually causes me to run =
screaming from the room and abandon the general form for a few =
months......I do one of a kind pieces....If I wanted to mass produce, I =
would call the mold makers and get them involved.....I really think this =
whole thread is alot about the same old "You can't be a REAL artist =
unless you blah,blah,blahblah......" Total fertilizer
That is also my opinion of the "You have to hammer stuff" =
clan.....Some of my favorite pieces are beginning efforts...and if a =
piece should be totally bad, then why would you not want to keep it =
around as a reminder that whatever you did to it was not something you =
should do again....
Mebbe the only way some people can do anything is to do it over and =
over until they can get something half-assed most of the time....If you =
have any talent you will find that the joy comes from making something =
with a fresh thought involved....Mebbe some people SHOULD hammer =
everything they makeHEHEHE.....Mebbe they should find something else to =
occupy their time....
Practise schmacktress......I don't even do sketches....I create =
finished product....
I will admit that over the years my work has gotten better, but it =
was not from doing the same lame dead bowl over and over....It was =
because if If I did something lame .....I moved on
I often push something to the point of destruction....try to make =
it do what it can't....but more often I do to it until it screams, "you =
touch me just one more time and I'm gonna...."...Then I tell it "OK, but =
you better look good in a glaze"
"Practise has to be a process of endless disapointment. We have to see =
that everything we demand (and even get) eventually disappoints us. This =
discovery is our teacher." -Charlotte Joko Beck
Rush
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
http://www.geocities.com/artimator/index.html
artimator@earthlink.net
Liz Willoughby on tue 31 jul 01
God, what a perfect post. Maybe this is why Ron has been my mentor
for how many years?
Ron, thanks for reminding us all, that form is what counts. Well,
lots of other things count too, but the reason so many production
potters work is so boring is because they are so concerned with
"production".
Meticky Liz
>And - most important of all - start with a form that has some life to it.
>It's very easy to wind up with a bunch of dead pots when production
>throwing.
>
>I say learn to do them as fast as possible - takes longer to learn that way
>but you have a much better chance to keep em alive.
>
>Helps to get mad once in a while - gives you an edge. Any attitude is
>better than bored.
>
>I always feel it's better to get some variation in size and shape and keep
>the forms vital - and avoid turning yourself into a machine.
>
>Remember - it's not how many you can make that is important - it's how many
>make it.
>
>RR
>
>
>
>Ron Roy
>RR# 4
>15084 Little Lake Rd..
>Brighton,
>Ontario, Canada
>KOK 1H0
>Residence 613-475-9544
>Studio 613-475-3715
>Fax 613-475-3513
Liz Willoughby
RR 1
2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
Grafton, On.
Canada
K0K 2G0
e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
Craig Martell on tue 31 jul 01
Hi:
Sometimes I think that doing the actual throwing of "like" items is a lot
easier than figuring out what it is that you are going to make.
The mechanics of repeat throwing have already been discussed so maybe it's
OK to talk briefly about throwing aesthetics and approaches to wheel work.
When doing sets of things for market and direct commissions, I have used
wheel pointers and guages to get things to the same size and
shape. Sometimes sacrificing the aesthetics the clay was trying to gift to
me while I concentrated on producing things exactly. I try not to do this
any longer. I've removed the pointers from my wheel and now I just use my
eye. If I'm making dinner plates, the thrown size is about 12 inches in
diameter from 4.5 lbs of clay. I just watch the edge of the 12 inch bat
I'm throwing on and get real close to this. It's the same with other
forms. I just use visual indicators from memory such as bat size and try
to remember all the moves I've done to make these pots. Mugs are 0.75lbs,
two pulls, shape with a rib, finish the foot, cut off, lift and place on
drywall slab. If I need 12 for an order, I do 24 and pick the ones that go
together best. Then I have some others to sell elsewhere.
I am now trying to concentrate on making series of work that will look like
it belongs in a set and is compatible without denying the differences that
you can achieve with the wheel and with your hands and eyes. If size and
shape is all that matters I can learn to use a jigger or a ram press both
of which make excellent ware. My point here is that if one is going to use
the potters wheel to make the bulk of your work, think about the strengths
of this process and try to emphasize this with what you make. Laser beam
perfect reproduction is not the most important thing to consider. It is,
however, important to learn the skills necessary to make very close
reproductions and then learn to relax these skills and allow the clay to
give you some advice.
later, Craig Martell in Oregon
K. Sam Miller on tue 31 jul 01
Well, here I go again (I feel like I'm poking an angry bear with a stick
)...
The Mayor sez...
> the more efficiently you use your tools, the better
> your work should be. not in all cases however, some
> just don't get it
..
Mel, just cause I can use a hammer like a wild man doesn't make me a master
carpenter. It would most likely HELP but it's not a PREREQUISITE (IMHO).
...
> art, great thoughts. bullshit.
> mel
>
...
What I don't understand is why it is so important to draw a distinction
between art & craft (and the animosity towards the term"art").
To me (MY OPINION), craft without art is unappealing. This is the kind of
stuff that you see in Pottery Barn (hundreds of pots that look exactly the
same). I whole-heartedly agree with some of the earlier posts about mugs,
etc., showing the variation & individuality of hand-crafted art. To me, the
craftsman is taking art to the next level - placing it in the hands of the
observor, to have an intimate experience with and to enrich his/her daily
life.
Also, why does learning HAVE to be the SAME for EVERYONE. Maybe I prefer
to learn my tool by using it to make 2000 DIFFERENT things instead of 2000
of the SAME thing.
My preference is to celebrate a diverse approach and to try to learn from
everyone's techniques. Please share, suggest, recommend, coach, but PLEASE
don't condemn another approach/idea just because it's not your path.
Exclusion does not benefit craft or art.
Thanks to all for listening to my ramblings!
Sam
Steve Mills on wed 1 aug 01
I absolutely agree with Ron.
I was 'helped' when I learnt production throwing (self taught) by having
a clay which, while it was amazing in many other ways, HAD to be
finished in 3 lifts (total) or it over-wetted and collapsed! Learning to
throw 2 plus pint Teapots took a while and a lot of them wound up (flat)
decorating the workshop walls :-) but I won in the end, and my pots had
'spirit' as one customer put it. AS Dr Johnson said 'The prospect that
one is to be hung in the morning concentrates the mind wonderfully'!
2 other things helped: The pots came off the wheel without stopping it.
This helps to get a 'rhythm' going.
and
Of my production list of some 30 items only 6 were trimmed when leather
hard; the rest were finished (apart from handles, spouts etc.) 'on the
wheel'.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , Ron Roy writes
>And - most important of all - start with a form that has some life to it.
>It's very easy to wind up with a bunch of dead pots when production
>throwing.
>
>I say learn to do them as fast as possible - takes longer to learn that way
>but you have a much better chance to keep em alive.
>
>Helps to get mad once in a while - gives you an edge. Any attitude is
>better than bored.
>
>I always feel it's better to get some variation in size and shape and keep
>the forms vital - and avoid turning yourself into a machine.
>
>Remember - it's not how many you can make that is important - it's how many
>make it.
>
>RR
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Wesley Rolley on wed 1 aug 01
I am a learner, not a great thrower. Maybe I should not comment on this=
=20
subject, but it may be important to acknowledge how I best learn. How=20=
often do we search for a single, one size fits all solution to our=20
problems? Given that there is benefit in learning to control what you=20=
are doing, then the question is really what is the best way to arrive at=
=20
that degree of control.
Many people use the analogy of a musician practicing scales, since that =
is what most music teachers tell most young musicians to do. However, I=
=20
heard the pianist Andras Schiff quoted as saying that he never practices=
=20
scales, arpeggios, etc. He just plays Bach. If you do it right, then=20=
all of the rest is there. Others may practice scales, but he has his own=
=20
way of reaching his goals.
I am always struggling for more control. But, to use another musical=20=
analogy, I prefer to play variations on a theme. For me, it helps me=20=
keep the creative edge and not to become bored. So now I have a series =
of vases. About the same amount of clay. About (+/- 1 cm) the same=20
height. The same basic shape, but each with a different curve or a=20
different lip, etc.
The other thing is that you will be most successful if you work on the=20=
forms that are the most interesting to you RIGHT NOW. Right now, I am=20=
interested in certain vase forms. So, it made sense to do a series (100=
)=20
of those vases. If I had used a tombo and made a series of bowls to=20=
exacting standards, I would not have gained as much from the work.
But, the key similarity between what I did and what some are telling you=
=20
to do is that I had clear measurable goals in mind and have worked=20
toward meeting those goals. Happiness (one goal) comes from setting and=
=20
achieving those objectives.
From playing those variations on a theme, I have:
- Improved my use of an inside rib during throwing.
- Improved my control of tall, narrow shapes.
- Found three variations on the forms that will become staples of my=20=
production.
What will be the next thing to interest me enough to play 100 variations=
?
Earl Brunner on wed 1 aug 01
Scales, arpeggios etc. Bach, it doesn't perhaps matter so much what you
practice as much as that you practice. I still like throwing in series.
Not necessarily attempting to throw 10-20--50 pieces identical, but I
do better throwing that way. After the first few I find the "groove"
and develop a rhythm that I find satisfying.
There was a pottery student at the lab the other night that I would
consider to be fairly proficient. She took three hours to produce 4
nearly identical pots. It was not a natural process for her yet. I
would have had at least twenty that size completed in the same amount of
time.
Putting handles on mugs the other day, it took me 10-15 handles to get
into the rhythm. I should have thrown the first ones out. Some people
get "bored" quickly or are looking for shortcuts. My beginners
sometimes take the class with a clear objective in mind. They expect to
make a full dinner ware set in one 8 week class. They take basket
weaving next. Always looking for the quick thing they can do without
having to develop any skill. They need the slipcast class. Buy the
greenware and paint it.
Wesley Rolley wrote:
>
> Many people use the analogy of a musician practicing scales, since that
> is what most music teachers tell most young musicians to do. However, I
> heard the pianist Andras Schiff quoted as saying that he never practices
> scales, arpeggios, etc. He just plays Bach. If you do it right, then
> all of the rest is there. Others may practice scales, but he has his own
> way of reaching his goals.
>
> I am always struggling for more control. But, to use another musical
> analogy, I prefer to play variations on a theme. For me, it helps me
> keep the creative edge and not to become bored. So now I have a series
> of vases. About the same amount of clay. About (+/- 1 cm) the same
> height. The same basic shape, but each with a different curve or a
> different lip, etc.
>
You've got the right idea
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Des Howard on thu 2 aug 01
"Untrained genius we can accept, but practice
in the hands of a master becomes perfection indeed"
Unknown author possibly misquoted by me.
Des
Lee Love wrote:
> I used to excuse my variation in the name of expression but it hindered
> the development of my skill. If you have the skill, then you really have the
> freedom to choose when to be exact and when to be free. The practice allows
> you to do the actual work the way you choose.
mel jacobson wrote:
> the world of clay is filled with skill, technique, recipes...physics, chemistry
> and design. that must be taught and communicated. that is a fact,
> that is not my bias...it is a fact. no human on earth can do `art` without
> some information. often it is just simple information, but it is needed.
> new folks to art need a great deal of information...or, why did i get
> paid to teach art for 40 years? only the rare genius does not need
> help and teaching.
Earl Brunner wrote:
> Scales, arpeggios etc. Bach, it doesn't perhaps matter so much what you
> practice as much as that you practice. I still like throwing in series.
> Not necessarily attempting to throw 10-20--50 pieces identical, but I
> do better throwing that way. After the first few I find the "groove"
> and develop a rhythm that I find satisfying.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
LUE NSW 2850
Australia
Ph/Fax 02 6373 6419
http://www.luepottery.lisp.com.au
Lee Love on thu 2 aug 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wesley Rolley"
>heard the pianist Andras Schiff quoted as saying that he
> never practices scales, arpeggios, etc. He just plays Bach
I bet he started with scales (remember, we were talking to someone who
is learning throwing.) And if you think about it, playing Bach is not exactly
ad libing. It is following a very intricate form. :^) Baseball players do
batting practice, ballet dancers do their forms, tennis players practice their
serves, Basketball players practice their jumpshot, swimmers do laps, etc, etc.
I used to excuse my variation in the name of expression but it hindered
the development of my skill. If you have the skill, then you really have the
freedom to choose when to be exact and when to be free. The practice allows
you to do the actual work the way you choose.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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Susan Holl-Jensen on fri 3 aug 01
I found myself a few years back with a lot of orders for something.
Though I'd been making it for years, my skills and speed were nowhere
nearly adequate to new level of demand. I started out making six per
hour and checking every dimension and contour with a jig or a rib.
After I had made maybe two thousand of them I was free of the jigs and
my production was up to maybe 12 per hour. Now I have made over forty
thousand of them and though I have made as many as sixty an hour, I'm
comfortable making 36 and hour...the level of concentration is not quite
so demanding. These days I always think of a new form a something to be
learned over the course of thousands of repetitions. Partly because
it's hard to make any money in pottery if you can't be fast and
efficient. There are so many areas of this business which are so labour
and "art" intensive that it is hard to make them pay. I feel that
throwing should be at least one area of my activities which will be
profitable.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
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