Frank Gaydos on tue 16 may 00
.
Don,
By your definitions, 95% of Clayarters are guilty of what you are accusing
Jonathan of doing.
The problem always comes down to: at what point is it hand made and not hand
made?
The traditional potter sitting in the dirt and using a puki to form the
bottom of the pot and coils to
extend it up is the 'true' potter by your definitions.Most of the Clayarters
are using wheels and not
kick wheels but electrified wheels. The horror! At what point did that
technique become sanctified
by the craft priests?
Using slabs? I hope you are rolling them out by hand, not using a slab
roller to do the work, it's not honest
if you do. Using an electric motor to roll the slabs??? That's blasphemy.
Extruding your handles? Tisk, tisk, I'm afraid you will have to leave the
show sir.
And now to add insult to injury you are using a computer to fire your
kilns. No skill involved there.
Are we to have signs in the show saying 'No work in this show has been
computer fired!"?
The point here is there will always be new technologies affecting out craft.
And if that technology helps
make my life easier and more productive then I'm all for it. There is a
holier then thou attitude permeating this thread and
I think this thread has passed the point of being personal and that is not
what Clayart is all about. IMHO.
Don Jones on tue 16 may 00
:-) Sorry Jonathan but I won't let you get the last word in.
I beleive that the large majority of the clay people on this list are
associated with the folk art tradition of making pots. i.e., making things
the non-industrial way. The purpose of the Buyers Market and the ACC events
is to showcase those clay people who work in this tradition. The same can
be said of wood, glass,metal,fiber and mixed media.
The following statement of yours is not true since I have been present at a
few meetings at these shows where complaints of factory produced ware were
often voiced. One example is the small studio alliance (now dead ) that
tried to put a focus on the small potter doing clay in a particular handmade
tradition employing no more than 2 in the studio. There have been numerous
complaints about mass produced clothing and jewelry at these events. I once
bought a scarf at Buyers Market that I thought was handmade but turned out
was manufactured in a 35,000 sq ft facility.
>But there has never been, IMHO, any
>issues relating to how things are made at these major shows, Not that these
>shows are in and of themselves the standards by which all exhibitions
>should be judeged, but they are a major barometer of trends in the craft
>industry. The point is , I think, is that again, its the work that matters.
>
No one is arguing that products made using mass techniques aren't good
looking or hard to do or not well designed, or that hands do not touch them.
The argument is of a certain "arts and crafts" tradition carried on in the
ACC shows and others that was hard won over the last 50 years and implied
certain techniques in each medium. The people who patronize these events
have expectations in their heads about how these products are made:
handthrown or slabbuilt pots, handblown glass, handwoven fiber on a small
loom, handmade jewelry on a small bench, the list goes on.
IMHO most other arguements are rationalizations having to do with making a
lot of money using the traditions of these shows.
Have there been complaints? you betcha!
Don Jones
http://www.highfiber.com/~claysky
Jonathan Kaplan on tue 16 may 00
>:-) Sorry Jonathan but I won't let you get the last word in.
I never have, nor do I currently, see my word as the last word or anything
quite resembling it!
>
> I beleive that the large majority of the clay people on this list are
>associated with the folk art tradition of making pots. i.e., making things
>the non-industrial way. The purpose of the Buyers Market and the ACC events
>is to showcase those clay people who work in this tradition.
Yes Don, I would agree that the majority of subscribers to ClayArt are
indeed involved in making pots in a quasi folk art tradition, and this
certainly is a broad catagorization, but in general, I do think that you
are correct. But I do not agree that that the purpose of the Buyer's
Market and ACC reflects this tradition. Wendy started the Buyers Markets in
response to the many qualified craftspeople who did not pass the ACC jury,
and the show has evolved over these many years to rival ACC. There are many
small studios and larger ones, as well as small factories working in the
art pottery tradition, using appropriate technologies. There are also many
of the same exhibitors at ACC. The infromation from any of these shows does
not state in anyway shape or form that their goal is to showcase those
working in a folk art tradition, in any media.
To my knowledge, the arguement that has been surfacing on and off the list
for many years has to do with assisted technologies the validity of these
methods vis a vis making work. How they impact our field. The issues of
small factories at retail/whoseale venues while tied to this issue has
really not been a prime focus, and I'm sureyou will correct me if I am
wrong.
The same can
>be said of wood, glass,metal,fiber and mixed media.
>The following statement of yours is not true since I have been present at a
>few meetings at these shows where complaints of factory produced ware were
>often voiced. One example is the small studio alliance (now dead ) that
>tried to put a focus on the small potter doing clay in a particular handmade
>tradition employing no more than 2 in the studio. There have been numerous
>complaints about mass produced clothing and jewelry at these events. I once
>bought a scarf at Buyers Market that I thought was handmade but turned out
>was manufactured in a 35,000 sq ft facility.
I don't have any knowledge or what is occurring in other media, so I think
we should confine our discussion to clay, rather than our assumed knowledge
of other media
>
>>But there has never been, IMHO, any
>>issues relating to how things are made at these major shows, Not that these
>>shows are in and of themselves the standards by which all exhibitions
>>should be judeged, but they are a major barometer of trends in the craft
>>industry. The point is , I think, is that again, its the work that matters.
>>
>No one is arguing that products made using mass techniques aren't good
>looking or hard to do or not well designed, or that hands do not touch them.
> The argument is of a certain "arts and crafts" tradition carried on in the
>ACC shows and others that was hard won over the last 50 years and implied
>certain techniques in each medium. The people who patronize these events
>have expectations in their heads about how these products are made:
>handthrown or slabbuilt pots, handblown glass, handwoven fiber on a small
>loom, handmade jewelry on a small bench, the list goes on.
I'm not sure what those who patronize these events look for. I do know that
there was never an issue with my slip cast constructions. But thats my own
read with my own work. And I also remember that you slip cast your spheres,
correct? How does that fit with the arts and crafts tradition? Well, it
fits, and not only does it fit, it fits really well, especially if you look
deep into the arts and crafts tradition of potterymaking. Most assisted
technologies were represented in small factory situations.
>IMHO most other arguements are rationalizations having to do with making a
>lot of money using the traditions of these shows.
I don' think they are rationalizations at all. I think most potters have
issues regarding money and value of work made by pressing, jiggering, and
pressing and that money is at the heart of this issue. I think if Petter
the Potter ( (names witheld to protect the innocent!) showed up at ACC or
the Buyer's Markets with hand thrown work, hand thrown by 20 employees at
Petter the Potter's studio, potters would be as annoyed because Petter the
Potter has the capacity to earn more money then Sam the Potter from the
Small Studio Alliance, now defunct. Its an issue of money.
>Have there been complaints? you betcha!
I'm sure there will always be complaints, as potters have been quite vocal
complainers and whiners. This is only my opinion and I could be wrong, but
its based on what I observe. Especially on the list.
And yes, in you last post you requested that I listen to and respect your
rants. Anything to the contrary would be a misrepresentation of anything I
have posted on this list for the last 6 years or so.
My position is for taking off the blinders, eliminating the myopia,
discarding the diatribe and dogma, yet at the same time remaining close to
what you believe in, for yourself. I have never presented anything to the
contrary.
Lets let this issue go away. I for one am really tired of it.
Respectfully,
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design Group LTd/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign
UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit13
Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
Lee Love on wed 17 may 00
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Gaydos
| The problem always comes down to: at what point is it hand made and not
hand
| made?
Actually, I'd forget about looking at the technique. Just hold the
work. Touching it will tell you all you need to know about the work and if
it is too "machine made."
I don't care for work that can be better made without the human
hand. The best work, from my preference, gives you the feeling that you
are shaking hands with the potter. But this is just personal preference.
--
Lee Love
2858-2-2 , Nanai , Mashiko-machi ,Tochigi-ken 321-4106 JAPAN
Ikiru@kami.com Voice Mail and Faxes (a USA number): (303) 256-0374
iandol on sat 20 may 00
I suppose that by extending the hand made issue to it=92s logical =
absurdity, most of the clay art community would be unable to function if =
it all boiled down to hand work only. The Hey Mate, get out your pick =
and shovel to mine your own dirt, get your feet in the clarts type =
attitude seems to be a bit short sighted.
Ivor. Thinking we may all be industrialised artistic designing =
capitalists
| |
|
