David Hendley on tue 16 may 00
Jonathan, like you, I also didn't want to get sucked into
this again, but, doggone it, you've got me. I just have
to comment on your assertion that that your slipcast
pottery is as "handmade" as it gets (quote below).
I'll tell you what's not handmade about it.
You designed and made the molds. So, the molds are
handmade. But that's where it ends. A piece you cast
on Thursday will be the same as one you cast on
Monday, even if you "touch" every piece. The piece you
cast 3 weeks from yesterday will still be the same.
That's kind of the whole point of making a mold, isn't it?
If one of your workers, rather than you personally, pours
the mold, guess what, it will still be the same.
Contrast that to a potter throwing on a potter's wheel.
The first couple of pieces of the day will probably be
a little small, or large, or wide, until the potter "gets the
feel" of what he's doing. If he stayed up too late the night
before drinking Jack Daniels, the pots might even be a
bit wobbly. If another person is hired to throw, the pieces
will be different, even if they are the same size and shape.
Also, unlike a slip-pourer, the hired potter will have had to
work through years of training and practice just to qualify
for the job.
The potter is always subtlety but constantly "designing" his
pot. Even if he is attempting to produce a standard line of ware,
the work will be continually evolving. Your design work ended
the moment you made your mold. It's dead. The throwing
potter's design is living and changing and being refined.
If you are making a handmade product, it should be no
problem to make a custom piece for someone. If a customer
asks me for a mug "like this one, except a half inch taller",
I'll say, "No problem, if you don't mind waiting a few weeks.
It will be $15, the same price as the one we're looking at."
Will you make a new mold, cast a cup in it, and sell it for
$15? I think not. The only way you can justify the time
required to make a mold is to make and sell lots of the
same thing. It would be like asking Ford to make me a new
Explorer, except I want it 2 inches wider and an inch shorter.
Here's a music analogy:
Is Karaoke live music?
I say no. The song will be the same length every time, it
will have the same tempo, the guitar lead will always be the
same. Just like your cast piece will always have the same
dimensions.
Even if the singer "designed" the accompaniment tape,
played the instruments, and recorded the tape, it's still not
live, or "handmade" music, because it is the same every
time. Just as you can vary the decoration on a piece of cast
pottery, the singer can vary what she sings, within the format
of the tape, but that is just one part of the many elements
that make a song.
Yes, singing with a tape is "dead" because all the designing
except the vocal was done in the recording studio. Get a real
band together and you will have live, or "living" music. If the
drummer is hyped up, he may play faster than usual. That
may inspire the keyboardist, and then even the vocalist is
trying some new things. Of course, if our Jack Daniels drinking
potter also plays bass in the band, he may slow things down
because his hands are tired from throwing pots all day.
And then the next day, his pots may be wobblier still.
This subject is not about money to me. Not at all.
It's also not about design. It's not about valuing work made
by one method more than that made by another method.
It's simply about the definition of a word: "handmade".
I think the word, like many in our society, has been
increasingly more liberally defined until it is practically
meaningless.
--
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com/
| My work
| is slip cast from molds that I make from original parts that I make. These
| forms are then assembled, decorated, and fired. What is not handmade about
| them? Everything about them is handmade from the original concept,
| designing and making the models, making the molds, casting the parts, and
| assembling them, finishing and decorating them. My hands touch each and
| every part of them in every stage of the process. They are handmade and
| have entered competative exhibitions of handmade work and have also wond
| awards. I would be hard pressed not to define them as hand made. The are
| slip cast from hand made molds and models that are designed and made by
me.
| What could be more handmade? The wheel or the slab roller does not define
| the parameters of handmade.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Kaplan
To:
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 7:38 AM
Subject: Reviewing the responses to the handmade issue........longishj
| I'll not belabor this issue as it is really a battle with no winners or
| loosers. But I will address some points that some on the list put forward
| in their responses to mine.
|
| >I am sorry to pick up on just one point of your mail, but being a mere
| >consumer of ceramics, my concern is slightly different to those actually
| >doing the making. I (rightly or wrongly) see slip casting in the
| >manufacturing tradition. However, since Leach & Co. reintroduced the
ideal
| >of the hand-made tradition as an art form and honest work, this issue is
| >programmed to continue... eternally. There will always be a "Them" and
"Us"
| >and ne'er the twain shall meet.
|
| Let us not for one minute only think that the Leach ideal is the only art
| form and one of honest work. This is eliteism pure and simple, and
| certainly presents a rather myopic vision. Them and us? I really don't
| care. I think that laboring in the Leach ideal is a fine and nobel way to
| work, if it fits your own particular vision of the world. But also let's
| not prostelitize this as the only way.It certanly doesn't work for
| everyone.
|
| >This will hardly be the only discussion which tends to repeat itself.
| >Although it obviously annoys you personally, I trust we will be allowed
to
| >bicker on? Someone recently asked if had anyone changed their opinion
about
| >the other point of view, as a result of what has been said... I presume
not
| >among the old die hards.
|
| Sure, bicker on as much as you wish. This is an open forum and there is
| room for all opinions, yours and mine. I don't for one minute assume that
| anyone will really change their opinion. Its a matter of perspective and
| experience. I think the issue is more a financial one than anything else
| and that the real hand made issue is only a veil masquerading as a
| financial one.
|
| >But if the final product is made by assisted technologies, with nothing
else
| >done to it but minor finishing and glazing, Then it should not be
| >represented as handmade, and it should not be entered in competitive
| >exhibitions of handmade work.
|
| This is too broad a statement to be left out there. For instance, my work
| is slip cast from molds that I make from original parts that I make. These
| forms are then assembled, decorated, and fired. What is not handmade about
| them? Everything about them is handmade from the original concept,
| designing and making the models, making the molds, casting the parts, and
| assembling them, finishing and decorating them. My hands touch each and
| every part of them in every stage of the process. They are handmade and
| have entered competative exhibitions of handmade work and have also wond
| awards. I would be hard pressed not to define them as hand made. The are
| slip cast from hand made molds and models that are designed and made by
me.
| What could be more handmade? The wheel or the slab roller does not define
| the parameters of handmade.
|
| >My entire point here is that when the artist makes the transition to
assisted
| >technolgies, and thus to a cottage-industry semi-mass-production
operation,
| >she/he steps out of the role of the one-of-a-kind craftsperson, and that
is
| >a very significant step, not to be taken lightly. As you and I both
agree,
| >it requires that the artist be completely upfront with the consumer about
| >the means of production, and that the work be entered in appropriate
| >exhibition and sales venues.
|
| Agreed. If we are not honest with our customers, then we not only deceive
| ourselves as well as them. But what defines appropriate exhibition and
| sales venues? Surely we cannot have the sales and exhibition police! But
if
| an exhibition clearly states "no cast work, jiggered work, pressed work"
| and some potter gets in and puts work made with these methods out for
sale,
| then that person is in violation of the stated rules of the exhibition.
But
| if there is no stipulation then whats the point? ACC states in their
| prospectus that the work should be made with appropriate tools. This is a
| broad definition, subject to interpretation, and leaves the decision to be
| made by the exhibitor. Having exhibited for many years in ACC and Buyer's
| Market shows, there is this broad range of work represented and the only
| issues that I remember over these many years was that one year someone had
| the gall to put out decorated mugs with ' Made in China" stickers on the
| bottoms!! Yes, that really offended us. But there has never been, IMHO,
any
| issues relating to how things are made at these major shows, Not that
these
| shows are in and of themselves the standards by which all exhibitions
| should be judeged, but they are a major barometer of trends in the craft
| industry. The point is , I think, is that again, its the work that
matters.
|
|
| >A fine pot has a pesonality and a presence, and in this case it
| >becomes an inseparble component of the final expression of the piece.
So,
| >no matter how exquisite the painting, if the pot is mass-produced, it
will
| >suck some of the creative energy out of the painting.
|
| Only perhaps. We have exquisitely made plates and platters that are sold
| to potters and others for decorating. These are mass produced. I have
never
| seen them diminish any creative energy whatsoever. They are a well made
| canvas that enhances the decoration.
| There are some very fine lines of beautifully produced tableware that are
| mass produced by major manufacturers that have been designed by artists,
| architects, potters, etc. To my mind some of the lines produced by Swid,
| Rosenthal, and others blend beautiful mass produced forms with equally
| beautiful decoration.
|
| >When all is said and done if you put your heart
| >in the work then the customer will reward you. And if that customer
thinks
| >your over priced then let them go to the factories. We all know who's
| >creating the problem here ( The Promoters ) can't live with them can't
live
| >without them. That's the real conundrum, after all a potters life is not
| >really about money its about freedom, peace of mind, communing with the
| >earth and its center, being one with your self.
|
| Well, this is an issue that is ripe for more discussion. But again, lets
| not assume for one minute that the only true potters are potter's who
| believe "a potters life is not really about money its about freedom, peace
| of mind, communing with the earth and its center, being one with your
| self." You can be all this and more!! But I would venture that money is a
| prime concern, financial viability, success, etc. etc. And I also have
felt
| for a long time that the real issue here is a financial one, not one of
| handmade vs. assisted technologies.
|
| >I guess my argument is still this. Press, cast, jigger whatever just
don't
| >masquerade as a potter.
|
| I disagree vehemently! I am as much a potter as anyone else on this list.
| And are many of my colleagues who use assisted technologies. I have just
| made a choice to expand my view and not be trapped into a myopia that
reaks
| of eliteism.
|
| >Another potter in Ontario keeps his press in the garage under a tarp.
His
| >press guy works at night.
|
| This guy needs a smack! He has a problem with self image and self worth,
| and is too affected by the opinions of others. I would venture that he
also
| many not have a good feeling about the work he produces. My press, jigger,
| casting equipment are out there for every one to see. I'm not ashamed of
| anything that we do or make. In fact, there is nothing but pride in this
| shop among my staff, myself, and our many happy customers.
|
| There was one post that postuated that "we need to return the issues of
| integrity of the work to the marketplace". And that the only way to do
| this was to hand make the work. At the expense of good design? At the
| expense of poorly crafted work? You can only bring your own sense of
| integrity to the marketplace. Any less will show through immediatley. The
| post ended by saying that by restoring integrity to the marketplace will
| help those who are dependant financially on the same marketplace for
| survival. Huh? What does one have to do with the other? The marketplace is
| only as "integrity bound" as what you bring to it. You can't worry or
loose
| sleep over what anyone else's standards are. Does poor work effect
everyone
| elses at a show? Sure does, but it also makes your work look even better
| and even perhaps more sellable.
|
| Finally, I think that one of the essence of this "arguement" so to speak
is
| that we view process as the only viable involvement in potterymaking.
| Process is important, but not at the expense of the other areas of
| involvement in making pots. Process is part of the big picture, not at the
| exclusion of everything else.
|
| I'm determined not to get sucked into this arguement again. I will agree
to
| disagree, and there is no need to put forward my views again. They are out
| there, along with my work, for all to see. I don't hide anything.
|
| Respectfully,
|
| Jonathan
|
|
|
| Jonathan Kaplan
| Ceramic Design Group LTd/Production Services
| PO Box 775112
| Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
| (970) 879-9139 voice and fax
| http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign
|
| UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit13
| Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
|
|
Jonathan Kaplan on wed 17 may 00
Good Morning David:
And you have got me, again! I think, that we are both right, in fact, I
think everyone on the list is right
in fact everyone is right and no one is wrong. (There is a case for the
ethics of relativism, only kidding, though)
>Jonathan, like you, I also didn't want to get sucked into
>this again, but, doggone it, you've got me. I just have
>to comment on your assertion that that your slipcast
>pottery is as "handmade" as it gets (quote below).
Yes my pottery is handmade. And within my context, it is was, and will be
as handmade as yours. But I really don't care to argue this. Just don't
lecture me on what you think my work is or is not!
I think that where we differ is the definintion of what exactly is
handmade. Having met you, talked with you, I know that everything about you
is about handmade, according to your definition of handmade. Never once
doubted it. And I think that within the context, your context, the
definination of handmade works for you. But we need to pay particular
attention to the context.
>
>I'll tell you what's not handmade about it.
Oh please!!!! No one on this list needs a lecture, especially me, but I'll
induldge you because I for one would never assert such a claim towards a
colleague in any way shape or form. But I'm a nice guy......
>You designed and made the molds.
I also made the originals.
>So, the molds are
>handmade. But that's where it ends. A piece you cast
>on Thursday will be the same as one you cast on
>Monday, even if you "touch" every piece. The piece you
>cast 3 weeks from yesterday will still be the same.
>That's kind of the whole point of making a mold, isn't it?
>If one of your workers, rather than you personally, pours
>the mold, guess what, it will still be the same.
Yes, the pieces I make on Monday will be the same as the ones made Friday.
My employees don't cast my work. I do. Each part is slip cast and then
assembled into larger more complex forms. In fact, the 25 vase/goblet
assemblies that I finished this week are all built from parts cast from the
same molds, in fact, these molds cast parts I used last year and the year
before and the year before.But the assembled works are all different. In my
context, and only my context, my work is handmade and I will continue to
assert that, anything to the contrary doesn't apply. I don't have a line
of slip cast tableware that I sell at shows. If I did, these pieces would
e same day after day, whether I cast them or my employees do. These, I
would agree with you, are slip cast, they are not hand made. But it is not
an issue for me. Again, a question of context, and this is where we differ.
It is precisely the context , and within that context that we are confusing
the issue. We have confused the context. And when Tony C asserts that he is
more of a potter and I am less of a potter, it reeks of a sanctimonious
holier than though attitude that is on the same level as they myriad forms
of religious fundamentalism/extremism. In his context he can be God's gift
to the pottery world and present his work as the mac daddy of pottery. If
he and everyone else in that context want to call themselves Shoji Junior
be my guest and I will not quabble or criticize. It is preciscly because I
understand thet context within which he works. And the same applies to you
and your work. Totally handmade from the get go. Within your context. No
better, no worse. Not any more of a potter and not any less.
>
>Contrast that to a potter throwing on a potter's wheel.
>The first couple of pieces of the day will probably be
>a little small, or large, or wide, until the potter "gets the
>feel" of what he's doing. If he stayed up too late the night
>before drinking Jack Daniels, the pots might even be a
>bit wobbly. If another person is hired to throw, the pieces
>will be different, even if they are the same size and shape.
Thats true and I agree. But lets not define within rigid parameters that
the wheel and slab roller, the potter or that potter's hired throwers are
the de facto defining entities that attribute worth or lack of worth, the
efficacy of the work, because this too is blatenly wrong and again, reeks
of a sanctimonious and holier than thou attitude.
>
>The potter is always subtlety but constantly "designing" his
>pot. Even if he is attempting to produce a standard line of ware,
>the work will be continually evolving.
This does not make it better. Its just another way of working.
>Your design work ended
>the moment you made your mold. It's dead.
Please no lectures. This is just not ture. If you took the time to look
at my work, it is far from dead and continues to explore the same themes in
many many different ways, all changing and all different. What I make is
not a standard line of ware. Please let's not make assumptions and
accusations without doing the research.
>The throwingpotter's design is living and changing and being refined.
So what? My designs are also changing and being refined. Different ways of
working in different contexts. You attribute posititve or negative values
based on the means of making the work. Without regard to the context and
without regard to what is done with the work afterwards. The means of
making the work, IMHO has nothing to do with the value of the work.
Contrast to the early Art Potteries in this country. Work was cast and
jiggered, pressed too. Some of this work has endured and will continue to
endure as magnificent statements of design and value of the potter's art.
No one ever questioned their means of manufacturing and how their pots were
executed. And those potteries, like yours and mine, developed out of a
tradition of pottermaking. Also I don't think that our pottery ancestors in
China gave a rats ass about making bisque molds for impressed decoration.
These pieces still endue, still have value, and will continue to have value
when your pots and my pots are part of some landfill somewhere.
>Here's a music analogy:
>Is Karaoke live music?
>I say no. The song will be the same length every time, it
>will have the same tempo, the guitar lead will always be the
>same. Just like your cast piece will always have the same
>dimensions.
>Even if the singer "designed" the accompaniment tape,
>played the instruments, and recorded the tape, it's still not
>live, or "handmade" music, because it is the same every
>time.
Karaoke is live music if you are sitting there and listening, but it is far
from original.
>This subject is not about money to me. Not at all.
>It's also not about design. It's not about valuing work made
>by one method more than that made by another method.
>It's simply about the definition of a word: "handmade".
>I think the word, like many in our society, has been
>increasingly more liberally defined until it is practically
>meaningless.
And all of these issues enter into the arguement. They are inseparable from
one another.
The word handmade for you has not lost its meaning and is present in your
life on a day to day basis. I saw your slide presentation in Denver/NCECA
and was incredibly impressed. It has not lost its meaning for you. For me,
it has alsonot lost its meaining, Is it more liberally defined? Yes. My
pottery paradigm changes continuously. It still has its meaning and I am
pleased, on a daily basis to push this envelope, having discarded the
pottery blinders that so many espouse to wear. For me, there is no pottery
dogma. Call me a liberal, but I would rather be criticized and bashed as a
pottery liberal than a pottery fundamentalist.
And yes, this is a matter of context and definition, and you know, as I am
sure you do, that it with the utmose of respect that I reply to you post.
And towards your work and your ways of working.
And I also know, I hope, that the same respect is accored me. I know it is.
Respectfully,
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design Group LTd/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign
UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit13
Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
Earl Brunner on wed 17 may 00
This was a long post, and I didn't want to copy back the
whole thing.
Jonathan, maybe you do make one of a kind assembled pieces.
BUT for a
fee you will also reproduce at your design group other
potter's(or not)
work, either slip cast or ram pressed, bisque it and deliver
it. I know
what they do with it and how they represent it is out of
your control.
BUT, I think the issue is that some people know that some of
this stuff
is in fact turn passed off as original (or maybe the
"artist" just neglects
to say). And you are party to the fact. If in fact every
person that bought from you and then resold did not
misrepresent, then it would all be squeaky clean. It's sorta
like the gun dealer that sells guns. He has no control over
what the purchaser will do with the gun, but he will get a
bad rap anyway if
murder weapons are traced back to him. (And I'm not calling
you a murderer)
Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
>
> Good Morning David:
>
> And you have got me, again! I think, that we are both right, in fact, I
> think everyone on the list is right
> in fact everyone is right and no one is wrong. (There is a case for the
> ethics of relativism, only kidding, though)
>
> >Jonathan, like you, I also didn't want to get sucked into
> >this again, but, doggone it, you've got me. I just have
> >to comment on your assertion that that your slipcast
> >pottery is as "handmade" as it gets (quote below).
>
> Yes my pottery is handmade. And within my context, it is was, and will be
> as handmade as yours. But I really don't care to argue this. Just don't
> lecture me on what you think my work is or is not!
>
> I think that where we differ is the definintion of what exactly is
> handmade. Having met you, talked with you, I know that everything about you
> is about handmade, according to your definition of handmade. Never once
> doubted it. And I think that within the context, your context, the
> definination of handmade works for you. But we need to pay particular
> attention to the context.
> >
> >I'll tell you what's not handmade about it.
>
> Oh please!!!! No one on this list needs a lecture, especially me, but I'll
> induldge you because I for one would never assert such a claim towards a
> colleague in any way shape or form. But I'm a nice guy......
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on fri 19 may 00
Man, Jonathan, you are WAY over sensitive. Chill for a
minute OK?
I thought we were having a discussion about the handmade
versus not handmade issue. I was attempting to point out
that apparently there are "Jonathan Kaplan pots" and "Kaplan
Design Group pots", something that I hadn't really
considered before because in every one of your posts you
have attached your
self to the Design Group (as you have at the bottom of this
one). I would suspect that many of us out here might have
made that mistake. I assure you the intent was not to
offend. Apparently I did, I am sorry for that. This is a
medium that often leads to misunderstandings. I don't have
a problem with your factory work. I never said that you
misrepresented it either. I did say that potters do buy
from you and do misrepresent THEIR work. And I said that
you for good or bad, right or wrong, are perceived by some
people as being partly to blame. I didn't intend to infer
that I thought you were being dishonest or unethical in any
way. I was merely suggesting that possibly some of these
unethical people might be giving you a bad name. If I did
not explain myself well last time I apologize for that.=20
If you still have a problem with that, sorry, it's your
problem.
BTW, I happen to NOT have a problem with the gun dealer. I
was suggesting that HE was no more to blame than YOU. IF you
think that he is to blame than I suggest that you in fact do
need to apply the same standard to yourself.
Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
>=20
> This will be a long post, maybe my last to this list. Earl, I will send=
you
> a copy of this when I send it to the list. You have really crossed the
> line. You have offended me, and I really can't take this with out a
> response. The potter's myopia is really represented by your post. But I
> will certainly not accuse you of essentially what you have so viciously
> compared me to.
>=20
> >This was a long post, and I didn't want to copy back the
> >whole thing.
> >Jonathan, maybe you do make one of a kind assembled pieces.
>=20
> Maybe I do? Yes, no" maybe" involved. I make one of a kind assembled pi=
eces
> from slip cast components. I make the models (the originials) make the
> block molds, some case molds, and assemble them. I work in cone 4 terra
> cotta, cone 4 whiteware, and cone 06 earthenware. I use shop glazes, us=
e
> commercial glazes in a bottle, and lots of non-fired pigments including
> acrylics, cray-pas, wax based metallic pigments, oil paints, gold and
> silver inks. In fact, many of these works have been included in nationa=
l
> juried exhibitions, wholesale market events (ACC and the Buyer's Market=
)
> and have won awards. Plus with over 30 years in the field , over 2/3 of
> them as a studio potter, I really don't need to listen to such bullshit
> from you.
>=20
> >BUT for a
> >fee you will also reproduce at your design group other
> >potter's(or not)
> >work, either slip cast or ram pressed, bisque it and deliver
> >it.
>=20
> Yes, we have a business of making pottery. And as a business, we charge=
for
> what we do.
> What is this, truth or dare? Are you the pottery police chief? But I wi=
ll
> explain to you and to everyone on this list what we do here............
>=20
> Let me tell you what we do here to settle this, And I will preface this
> because the hair on the back of my neck is starting to bristle. First, =
I
> don't need to defend anything I do or have done with my work, my busine=
ss,
> or my life. But I am responding to these myriad of postings with respec=
t
> and consideration. I only wish the same accorded to me. Don't for one
> minute assume that you know anything about me, my work or my business O=
K?
> Do the research,then we can have an enlightened and honest discussion. =
I'll
> talk with you or anyone else, anytime, anyplace.
>=20
> Ceramic Design Group is a domestic manufacturing facility in Steamboat
> Springs CO. We are designers and manufacturers of tableware, giftware,
> ceramic art pieces, etc. etc. Our clients are mostly from industry. We
> prototype, sample, make molds design and produce small to medium sized
> production runs up to 5000 pieces. We also produce very small quantitit=
es
> in the 100-500 piece range. We work in low temperature white clay and l=
ow
> temperature terra cotta, mid range whiteware and terra cotta, and high
> temperature stoneware and porcelain. We slip cast, jigger, RAM=A9 press=
,
> throw and handbuild. Our work is fired from cone 06 to cone 10 in both =
gas
> and electric kilns. We have a well paid dedicated, professional staff. =
Most
> are from a clay background. Some are not.
>=20
> We offer a domestic manufacturing venue to the trade. We offer an
> alternative to offshore manufacturing. We have no minimum quantities, =
we
> use no sales reps, and treat all of our clients fairly with respect and
> courtesy.
>=20
> We have a line of shapes that I designed that we manufacture for potter=
s
> and the paint your own stores. We can produce these in any clay and sup=
ply
> bisqueware to both stores and potters alike.
> We help potters grow their business, and we also make their shapes in t=
heir
> clay and furnish them with bisque or glazed ware. I have absolutely no
> regrets nor does any of this weigh on my conscience. We have a fast gro=
wing
> business producing fine quality wares. Our business is run on the highe=
st
> standards.
>=20
> I know
> >what they do with it and how they represent it is out of
> >your control.
>=20
> It should not even, or ever be an issue that I have control or not.
>=20
> >BUT, I think the issue is that some people know that some of
> >this stuff
> >is in fact turn passed off as original (or maybe the
> >"artist" just neglects
> >to say). And you are party to the fact.
>=20
> To what fact? What is this the Pottery House on Un-Pottery Activities
> Committee? Who are you? The pottery judge and jury all in one?
>=20
> If in fact every
> >person that bought from you and then resold did not
> >misrepresent, then it would all be squeaky clean. It's sorta
> >like the gun dealer that sells guns.
>=20
> Oh please! This analogy is not only bogus, it is blatently offensive a=
nd
> you are totally misrepresenting what we do without any consideration of
> even talking to me or knowing whatyou are talking about!
>=20
> >what the purchaser will do with the gun, but he will get a
> >bad rap anyway if
> >murder weapons are traced back to him. (And I'm not calling
> >you a murderer)
>=20
> No you are not. But you are implying that there is some sort of correla=
tion
> or analogy, and you are giving me a bad rap (at the least!) I take offe=
nse
> at this and ask, no, I DEMAND, that you apologize publically on the lis=
t.
> To me, and to the list for disemenating this blatently bogus comparison.
> Earl, I don't know you, nor have I ever met you. What gives you the rig=
ht
> to throw insults like this at me? You don't know me and you don't know =
one
> damn thing about me or my business, my work, or about the many potters =
and
> businesses we have helped successfully grow their business when they
> couldn't handle the production. Or o the many individuals who have a
> product idea in clay that we have desgined and brought to market. You n=
ever
> had the courtesy to ask, yet you accuse me of devious, nasty, and
> unscroupulous behavior. A bad rap? That too.
>=20
> I have been quite vocal and open on this list about what I observe. I t=
ell
> the truth as I see it. If it offends you, let it be. The point is that =
I
> would never accuse you or for that matter, any one on the list of what =
you
> have essentially accused me of doing, and in a public forum. There may =
be
> many on the list who disagree with me and with whom I disagree, but wou=
ld I
> ever insult them in the way you have insuted me? Search the archives an=
d
> you will find that in the over 5 years I have been on this list, never =
once
> have I ever posted anything that could be close to what you have done t=
o
> me.
>=20
> I can stand the heat and I can certainly stand and defend my position, =
but
> I will not be part of such an obviously poorly thought out, unscroupulo=
us,
> and essentially vicious condemnation about something you know very litt=
le
> about.
>=20
> Respectfully
>=20
> Jonathan
>=20
> Jonathan Kaplan
> Ceramic Design Group LTd/Production Services
> PO Box 775112
> Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
> (970) 879-9139 voice and fax
> http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign
>=20
> UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit13
> Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
--=20
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Mroczkowski on fri 19 may 00
I was thrilled to find this discussion group,but I lose faith in its mission
when these exhausting arguments take a nasty turn. The world of ceramic art
has suffered enough under the tiresome arguments of
art-versus -craft,one-of -a kind, versus functional,... Is'nt anyone here
beaten up enough already by the larger world of art with a capital "A"?
Shame on all of you who have personally attacked Jonathan and his work,his
sound business decisions, and for the technical advice he has freely given
to other potters. We as clay artists live in a relatively small world, and
it has taken 40 or 50 years to reach this level of recognition within the
larger scope of the arts. We need to support each other in what ever genre
we choose to create in. There is room here for everyone of us and everything
that we make. There are no "laws" in the creative process. You folks who dig
your own clay and stoke your own kilns are no holier than those who use
electric wheels,and programable kilns,etc.,etc. I'm not even going to get
involved in the actual debate of molds versus hand -made, because it will
never reach a conclusion .
However,I do agree that the integrity of the maker and of the piece itself
are what really matter.
With respect, Judy Huppert
Message -----
From: Earl Brunner
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Reviewing the responses to the handmade issue...
> This was a long post, and I didn't want to copy back the
> whole thing.
> Jonathan, maybe you do make one of a kind assembled pieces.
> BUT for a
> fee you will also reproduce at your design group other
> potter's(or not)
> work, either slip cast or ram pressed, bisque it and deliver
> it. I know
> what they do with it and how they represent it is out of
> your control.
> BUT, I think the issue is that some people know that some of
> this stuff
> is in fact turn passed off as original (or maybe the
> "artist" just neglects
> to say). And you are party to the fact. If in fact every
> person that bought from you and then resold did not
> misrepresent, then it would all be squeaky clean. It's sorta
> like the gun dealer that sells guns. He has no control over
> what the purchaser will do with the gun, but he will get a
> bad rap anyway if
> murder weapons are traced back to him. (And I'm not calling
> you a murderer)
>
> Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
> >
> > Good Morning David:
> >
> > And you have got me, again! I think, that we are both right, in fact, I
> > think everyone on the list is right
> > in fact everyone is right and no one is wrong. (There is a case for the
> > ethics of relativism, only kidding, though)
> >
> > >Jonathan, like you, I also didn't want to get sucked into
> > >this again, but, doggone it, you've got me. I just have
> > >to comment on your assertion that that your slipcast
> > >pottery is as "handmade" as it gets (quote below).
> >
> > Yes my pottery is handmade. And within my context, it is was, and will
be
> > as handmade as yours. But I really don't care to argue this. Just don't
> > lecture me on what you think my work is or is not!
> >
> > I think that where we differ is the definintion of what exactly is
> > handmade. Having met you, talked with you, I know that everything about
you
> > is about handmade, according to your definition of handmade. Never once
> > doubted it. And I think that within the context, your context, the
> > definination of handmade works for you. But we need to pay particular
> > attention to the context.
> > >
> > >I'll tell you what's not handmade about it.
> >
> > Oh please!!!! No one on this list needs a lecture, especially me, but
I'll
> > induldge you because I for one would never assert such a claim towards a
> > colleague in any way shape or form. But I'm a nice guy......
> >
>
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Andie on fri 19 may 00
Jonathan:
Without commenting EITHER way on the original post here, I'd like to say
that I hope you don't choose to leave the list. It was not so long ago that
I let someone's posted perception of me on Clayart make me so mad that I
wrote in a long tirade (now and forever in the archives, I'm afraid) and
swore I'd never post again. I have to admit, I later regretted much of the
whole thing, and jumped at the excuse of a new moderator & new beginning to
start posting again. Everyone who posts on Clayart is teaching someone,
somewhere, something - the master potters, the students, the hobbyists, the
production, studio, and one-of-a-kinders. Any one person leaving will be
felt as a loss to someone, if not everyone.
Andie Carpenter
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Kaplan
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Reviewing the responses to the handmade issue...
>This will be a long post, maybe my last to this list. Earl, I will send you
>a copy of this when I send it to the list. You have really crossed the
>line. You have offended me, and I really can't take this with out a
>response. The potter's myopia is really represented by your post. But I
>will certainly not accuse you of essentially what you have so viciously
>compared me to.
>(snip - original message was much longer, please look in the archives,
clipping this message so as not to fill the digests)
>
>
Jonathan Kaplan on fri 19 may 00
This will be a long post, maybe my last to this list. Earl, I will send you
a copy of this when I send it to the list. You have really crossed the
line. You have offended me, and I really can't take this with out a
response. The potter's myopia is really represented by your post. But I
will certainly not accuse you of essentially what you have so viciously
compared me to.
>This was a long post, and I didn't want to copy back the
>whole thing.
>Jonathan, maybe you do make one of a kind assembled pieces.
Maybe I do? Yes, no" maybe" involved. I make one of a kind assembled pieces
from slip cast components. I make the models (the originials) make the
block molds, some case molds, and assemble them. I work in cone 4 terra
cotta, cone 4 whiteware, and cone 06 earthenware. I use shop glazes, use
commercial glazes in a bottle, and lots of non-fired pigments including
acrylics, cray-pas, wax based metallic pigments, oil paints, gold and
silver inks. In fact, many of these works have been included in national
juried exhibitions, wholesale market events (ACC and the Buyer's Market)
and have won awards. Plus with over 30 years in the field , over 2/3 of
them as a studio potter, I really don't need to listen to such bullshit
from you.
>BUT for a
>fee you will also reproduce at your design group other
>potter's(or not)
>work, either slip cast or ram pressed, bisque it and deliver
>it.
Yes, we have a business of making pottery. And as a business, we charge for
what we do.
What is this, truth or dare? Are you the pottery police chief? But I will
explain to you and to everyone on this list what we do here............
Let me tell you what we do here to settle this, And I will preface this
because the hair on the back of my neck is starting to bristle. First, I
don't need to defend anything I do or have done with my work, my business,
or my life. But I am responding to these myriad of postings with respect
and consideration. I only wish the same accorded to me. Don't for one
minute assume that you know anything about me, my work or my business OK?
Do the research,then we can have an enlightened and honest discussion. I'll
talk with you or anyone else, anytime, anyplace.
Ceramic Design Group is a domestic manufacturing facility in Steamboat
Springs CO. We are designers and manufacturers of tableware, giftware,
ceramic art pieces, etc. etc. Our clients are mostly from industry. We
prototype, sample, make molds design and produce small to medium sized
production runs up to 5000 pieces. We also produce very small quantitites
in the 100-500 piece range. We work in low temperature white clay and low
temperature terra cotta, mid range whiteware and terra cotta, and high
temperature stoneware and porcelain. We slip cast, jigger, RAM=A9 press,
throw and handbuild. Our work is fired from cone 06 to cone 10 in both gas
and electric kilns. We have a well paid dedicated, professional staff. Most
are from a clay background. Some are not.
We offer a domestic manufacturing venue to the trade. We offer an
alternative to offshore manufacturing. We have no minimum quantities, we
use no sales reps, and treat all of our clients fairly with respect and
courtesy.
We have a line of shapes that I designed that we manufacture for potters
and the paint your own stores. We can produce these in any clay and supply
bisqueware to both stores and potters alike.
We help potters grow their business, and we also make their shapes in their
clay and furnish them with bisque or glazed ware. I have absolutely no
regrets nor does any of this weigh on my conscience. We have a fast growing
business producing fine quality wares. Our business is run on the highest
standards.
I know
>what they do with it and how they represent it is out of
>your control.
It should not even, or ever be an issue that I have control or not.
>BUT, I think the issue is that some people know that some of
>this stuff
>is in fact turn passed off as original (or maybe the
>"artist" just neglects
>to say). And you are party to the fact.
To what fact? What is this the Pottery House on Un-Pottery Activities
Committee? Who are you? The pottery judge and jury all in one?
If in fact every
>person that bought from you and then resold did not
>misrepresent, then it would all be squeaky clean. It's sorta
>like the gun dealer that sells guns.
Oh please! This analogy is not only bogus, it is blatently offensive and
you are totally misrepresenting what we do without any consideration of
even talking to me or knowing whatyou are talking about!
>what the purchaser will do with the gun, but he will get a
>bad rap anyway if
>murder weapons are traced back to him. (And I'm not calling
>you a murderer)
No you are not. But you are implying that there is some sort of correlation
or analogy, and you are giving me a bad rap (at the least!) I take offense
at this and ask, no, I DEMAND, that you apologize publically on the list.
To me, and to the list for disemenating this blatently bogus comparison.
Earl, I don't know you, nor have I ever met you. What gives you the right
to throw insults like this at me? You don't know me and you don't know one
damn thing about me or my business, my work, or about the many potters and
businesses we have helped successfully grow their business when they
couldn't handle the production. Or o the many individuals who have a
product idea in clay that we have desgined and brought to market. You never
had the courtesy to ask, yet you accuse me of devious, nasty, and
unscroupulous behavior. A bad rap? That too.
I have been quite vocal and open on this list about what I observe. I tell
the truth as I see it. If it offends you, let it be. The point is that I
would never accuse you or for that matter, any one on the list of what you
have essentially accused me of doing, and in a public forum. There may be
many on the list who disagree with me and with whom I disagree, but would I
ever insult them in the way you have insuted me? Search the archives and
you will find that in the over 5 years I have been on this list, never once
have I ever posted anything that could be close to what you have done to
me.
I can stand the heat and I can certainly stand and defend my position, but
I will not be part of such an obviously poorly thought out, unscroupulous,
and essentially vicious condemnation about something you know very little
about.
Respectfully
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design Group LTd/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign
UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit13
Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
JIMV062@AOL.COM on sat 20 may 00
Hello Charles..!!!. Everyone has a right to an opinion... One's opinion
does not make it law, or fact. except to that person. It can be expressed
and may or may not be embraced by others. Exchange of opinions, like
ideas, can be a good thing.. and is essential for mental and emotional
growth.. or we don't grow!. HOWEVER> when it is carried too far.. it become
a rally cry for war..and that is always destructive.! Please folks..lets
share, express our thoughts -- learn and grow. But, it is past time to
stop the war.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please..everyone.. dont leave the lists. That
only breeds resentment.. and the world is already to full of that !!! We
clay people need to stick together.... to borrow a phrase from a native
American.. From this day forward i will fight no more..(And i wont even open
a message that has Handbuilt/Versus..in it. Jim in Dallas...
Cameron Harman on sat 20 may 00
I didn't want to get sucked into this discussion either, but ...
After reading Jonathan's passionate comments I felt an
overwhelming need to comment.
I have spoken with Jonathan and have done business with him. That
does not mean I know him, but the contact I have had brings to
mind a phrase which is not commonly heard these days: 'he is a
really decent man'. I understand his passion as well. I get the
same feelings at times when I read comments on the CLAYART list.
There are many well intentioned folks who really do not understand
some technical areas that I live with every day. Sometimes I want
to shout at the screen. I do not often make comments, however,
because it would serve no purpose.
I have reserved my comments for those few occasion where I felt
that a brief explanation would clear things up for everyone. On
some of those occasions I have received comments on and off line
that were both mean spirited and clearly uninformed. In general I
take that to be a part of the human condition.
Being judgmental is wrong, I know it, and I still do it. There is
some compelling part of our human nature that makes us do stupid
things and being judgmental is one of those stupid things that we
do. It is most easy to fall into that trap when splitting hairs.
What we need to remember is that a lot of the "definitions" that
we use are subjective in the first place. One of my favorite
examples is "stoneware". Try as I may, I cannot find a truly
technical definition. I thought that I had one and used to get
upset over the "erroneous" use of the term. I finally realized
that the definition is really in the eye of the beholder. It is
more a marketing term than a technical term. I had to just get
over it and live with it.
For those of you who are determined to find a single one size fits
all definition of "handmade", for example, you are not ever going
to be satisfied. Not everyone is going to agree with your
particular view, so, get over it and live with it. A reasoned, if
passionate, comment may sway some, but by no means all. Throwing
vernal abuse at fundamentally good people like Jonathan will
change no minds at all and will frequently backfire.
I understand the passion on both sides, but the verbal abuse is
really unworthy of a sound argument.
Cameron
--
**********************************************************
Cameron G. Harman, Jr. 215-245-4040 fax 215-638-1812
e-mail kilns@kilnman.com
Ceramic Services, Inc 1060 Park Ave. Bensalem, PA 19020
get your free ezine: http://www.kilnman.com/ezine/ezine.html
THE place for total kiln and drier support
**********************************************************
Charles G Hughes on sat 20 may 00
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Kaplan
To:
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Reviewing the responses to the handmade issue...
This will be a long post, maybe my last to this list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan,
I strongly encourage you to stay a part of the list. (Selfish me!)
Offended or not, if you are as strong in your beliefs about your work as you
say you are, then the opinions of people who don't understand what you do
shouldn't matter too much. I have enjoyed your posts and have had my
somewhat provincial attitudes about pots and the multitude of ways to
process clay into objects adjusted accordingly by reading posts from
clayworkers who use every method imaginable to produce their beloved work.
That is what it is about, loving your work. The buying public has their own
tastes, if they want a pot, let them buy one, to their own definition. If
someone doesn't want to recognize a molded piece as Art, so be it, it's a
big world and plenty of customers to go around, plenty of room for everyone
to have an opinion too. Here's mine.
When we start ranting about authenticity and handmade and manufacturing
and whether a person or their work has value because of the methods they
use to create the objects they sell I think we are delving into issues that
are beyond logic and into the realm of the spiritual and emotional. You
can't argue logically with a person who is gaining spiritual or emotional
satisfaction from doing a thing, whatever it may be. To my experience,
everyone who gets spiritual or emotional satisfaction from anything becomes
an evangelist for their cause.I get a great deal of emotional and spiritual
satisfaction from making my pots with the wheel as my primary tool. THAT is
all that matters. I -personally, without regard to anyone else-like it.
Apparently enough people in the world like it that they part with a lot of
money to own what I make with my primary tool. I am satisfied, they are
satisfied. I am sure Jonathan that a lot of people agree with your methods
of producing art. Including other artists. You are satisfied, they are
satisfied. The summation of my not so humble opinion is Do what you do. Let
other people worry about whether it is handmade, authentic, or has analogous
ties to weapons production (what a joke). If you are being supported by your
customers and like doing what you are doing, then the opinions of folks who
just don't understand you, are and should be meaningless.
For those who say but what about how unfair it is for a manufacturer to
compete with a small studio. There are billions of people in the world,
plenty of customers to go around. Do some research and find some markets
that are uniquely suited to your style of art. If you can't make a buck,
then CHANGE. Raise your prices since you do it all yourself. There is plenty
of room for all of us. Clay is the medium. Creating is good, whatever the
methods.
There may be a time when my nerve damaged hands can't throw pots
anymore...you can bet I'll use molds.
Charles
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