Jeff Lawrence on mon 29 may 00
Hello,
I visited a ceramic factory this week, and was truly humbled by their
matter-of-fact expertise. I also found it to be a stark contrast to several
degreed ceramic artists I've encountered in the last few months, who ranged
from marginally aware but not interested in technical issues (even merely
for competetence) to pitiably ignorant.
My conclusion was this:
The division of art/craft from industry, epitomized by alleged ceramic
artists who seem to know little about ceramics, is a kiss of death for the
future. Learning the technical state of the art ought to be a requirement
for any degree that has the word ceramic in it.
The level of technical expertise here on clayart is high, and includes many
with ceramic art degrees, so please don't anybody get any knots in your
underwear about it. I am not bringing this up to derogate the the
incompetents who stimulated the question or thumb my nose at the state of
the art degree.
I bring it as a question to the technically astute academics on clayart:
Doesn't it bother you to have your degree diminished by MFA holders who are
technically out to lunch? Do you see any trends out there toward more
technical awareness?
There were a lot of good points in Why Get an MFA last year. I don't dismiss
them and they need not be repeated. I regret the serious gaps in my own
understanding of clay and clay art and find it troubling that an MFA may not
do much to help.
Jeff Lawrence ph. 505-753-5913
Sun Dagger Design fx. 505-753-8074
18496 US HWY 285/84 jml@sundagger.com
Espanola, NM 87532 www.sundagger.com
Jim Bozeman on tue 30 may 00
Jeff, I agree totally with you. If I had to do it all over again, I would
have spent a Summer at Anderson Ranch or Penland gaining knowledge in a
non-academic setting and using my money to then set up my studio instead of
wasting it on a degree. Jim Bozeman
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vince pitelka on tue 30 may 00
> My conclusion was this:
> The division of art/craft from industry, epitomized by alleged ceramic
> artists who seem to know little about ceramics, is a kiss of death for the
> future. Learning the technical state of the art ought to be a requirement
> for any degree that has the word ceramic in it.
Jeff -
Seems a rather extreme conclusion based on "several degreed ceramic
artists." But your primary complaint should be with BFA programs, not with
MFA programs. Undergraduate school is where most of the technical grounding
should take place. It is certainly true that much fault lies with
undergraduate art programs that neglect technical strengths. But for every
program that is guilty of negligence in this regard, there is one which
makes sure its graduates have sound technical skills. And those who receive
a strong technical grounding in undergraduate school, and continue on to
grad school, will aggressive explore materials and process in their graduate
studies. So I don't think you have anything to worry about. Throrough
grounding in materials and process helps give the fluency and confidence
from which arises good work. Graduates from BFA programs which cover all
the bases will excel in exhibition and marketplace (and grad school!). It
is really as simple as that. Those who are weak in these areas can't get by
on hype and bluster. Survival of the fittest.
I agree that the faculty in every MFA program should keep a vigilant eye on
the technical skills of their grad students. It just makes sense to do so.
Where they see deficiencies, they should recommend remedial studies. But
technical competence is not the primary focus of grad school. Greater
technical competence should be an OUTCOME of grad school, and it should
arise from the development of a professional level body of work, and the
student's commitment to attain professional level breadth of knowledge in
the field. Keep in mind here that any student who enters graduate school is
taking a step towards professional autonomy, and must adopt an aggressive
proactive commitment to their own education. If they get out of graduate
school lacking in fundamental skills and knowledge, the first one to blame
is themselves. It is too easy to blame everyone but one's self. Graduate
school is not a place for following instructions. It is a place for taking
initiative.
> There were a lot of good points in Why Get an MFA last year. I don't
dismiss
> them and they need not be repeated. I regret the serious gaps in my own
> understanding of clay and clay art and find it troubling that an MFA may
not
> do much to help.
With all due respect, Jeff, the amount of help that an MFA would provide is
mostly up to you. The university you choose would provide the opportunity,
the facility, the resources, and the faculty guidance. If you specifically
want the increase your technical expertise, and you decide that an MFA is
the right path, just be sure to choose a place where the faculty can provide
the technical guidance you seek, and where they are supportive of that
search.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on wed 31 may 00
> Jeff, I agree totally with you. If I had to do it all over again, I would
> have spent a Summer at Anderson Ranch or Penland gaining knowledge in a
> non-academic setting and using my money to then set up my studio instead
of
> wasting it on a degree.
We have been around and around on this, so I am not going to repeat myself
much, except to say that there are some faculty out there who do not provide
the appropriate amount of guidance or information, and that is a shame. But
anyone who makes it through a BFA program and in retrospect considers it a
waste of time must accept the lion's share of responsibility for that time
wasted. The key to success in almost any endeavor is to make the most of
every situation. You had the tools and the opportunity to do so. Who's
fault is it that you did not?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Louis H.. Katz on wed 31 may 00
Dear Jeff,
We are about to get an MFA program at TAMUCC. Our MA in studio arts starts up this
fall, the MFA in a year. I am considering how to balance the goal of becoming an
expert on your own work, developing that work, technical expertise, and knowlege
of ceramic history.
i do not feel like a degree is worth anymore than the paper it is written on.
People know what they know, not what some document represents. Programs and
students differ widely.
Louis
My personal definition of art:
Any artifact of intelligence.
--
Louis Katz
NEW EMAIL ADDRESS Louis.Katz@mail.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director of Electronic Communication and Webmaster (Ad-Hoc)
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts
Visit the NCECA World Ceramics Image Database Online
Looking for a school or a class? Visit NCECA Ceramics Educational Programs
Database Online
OWLPOTTER@AOL.COM on wed 31 may 00
In a message dated 5/31/0 03:00:19 PM, you wrote:
>Jeff, I agree totally with you. If I had to do it all over again, I would
>have spent a Summer at Anderson Ranch or Penland gaining knowledge in a
>non-academic setting and using my money to then set up my studio instead of
>wasting it on a degree. Jim Bozeman
Ditto!
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, MI
Earl Brunner on thu 1 jun 00
ahhhh, Jim, Jim, Jim.....
Vince is perfectly capable of supporting himself off of the
sell of his work,
I have seen some perfectly horrible potters do so. (Sorry
Vince, not trying to infer anything here). You are right,
not every school focuses or even encourages for that matter,
potters who wish to learn how to throw or make functional
work. But if you know what you want, and the school won't
give it, why go there and put yourself through all that?
Anybody going into any field of studio ought to find a
school that is a "good fit".
Now we just had a multitude of posts (adnauseam) about being
kind to each other, didn't you read *any* of them?
Jim Bozeman wrote:
>
> Vince, You make statements like you think every school bends over backwards
> to help their students. Well the school I attended really put a lot of
> barriars in front of me that I had to hurdle. I finally got sick of trying
> to educate my self THEIR way and took charge of my education. The chair of
> the clay department didn't even know how to do glaze theory, so I learned it
> on my own. The chair of the clay department encouraged me to make
> post-modernist crap. They tried to teach me that work made on the wheel was
> inferior to their post-modernist crap. Well in the end, I'm making my living
> off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
> yourself off of the sale of your work Vince. Jim Bozeman
> ________________________________________________________________________
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http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
vince pitelka on thu 1 jun 00
> Vince, You make statements like you think every school bends over
backwards
> to help their students.
No, Jim, I never said that at all. In fact, I very clearly acknowledged
that there are clay faculty who do not provide the necessary guidance and
assistance. That is the unfortunate reality. That was apparently the case
where you got your BFA. I also said that in such situations it is up to the
student to get proactive and take the initiative. From what you say, you did
that as well. So what's the problem, if you came out of it with a good
education?
> Well the school I attended really put a lot of
> barriars in front of me that I had to hurdle. I finally got sick of trying
> to educate my self THEIR way and took charge of my education. The chair of
> the clay department didn't even know how to do glaze theory, so I learned
it
> on my own. The chair of the clay department encouraged me to make
> post-modernist crap. They tried to teach me that work made on the wheel
was
> inferior to their post-modernist crap.
So Jim, if this is true than why in the world did you stay there? As master
of your own destiny, why did you allow yourself to be victimized by these
people? It sounds like this program was completely wrong for you, I cannot
understand why you chose to stay there and complete your degree.
> Well in the end, I'm making my living
> off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
> yourself off of the sale of your work Vince.
I am pleased that you are able to make a living off your work, and I'll bet
you would not be doing so without the background you received while
completing your BFA.
Regarding your closing statement, after undergraduate school, and before I
went to graduate school and became a unversity educator, I was an auto and
equipment mechanic for eight years, and a studio potter for ten years. I
supported my family quite comfortably.
Jim, I really am not trying to change your mind, but the idea of you
poisoning other people's aspirations to higher education based on your own
unfortunate experience is indeed disturbing. I support your right to speak
your mind, of course, but I wish you would think more carefully about the
implications. This is not the first time you have slammed BFA programs on
Clayart, and I am wondering what you get out of it.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Spincy68@CS.COM on thu 1 jun 00
as i recall, the mfa program i attended was voluntary, and thus if i was
unhappy with the instruction was free to leave any time to pursue other
goals. and it seems jim is not aware that the appalachian craft center does
not employ slouches in their ceramics department. better do your homework
before you start taking shots at people.
Diane Mead on thu 1 jun 00
The idea that an artist needs a chemistry degree
or a physics degree is absolutely logical to me.
I have a (very) heavy duty BFA but all the
questions I pose in my present job refer
back to the nuts and bolts and structure.
I need a lot more science info and wish
my background were stronger in science.
If I had my way, I'd go back to school and
major in chem, minor in physics, maybe end up in engineering.
This is after
the BFA. Only a handful of my profs had
real science understanding. This handful also happened
to be incredible artists. I was lucky. And I did
persevere until I got what I needed.
Sadly college is often a privilege for people
who are too young to get it. They take the
"easy art" grade (though I never got any breaks
like that), and think they are "learn-ed."
Society has bit of responsibility for
allowing artists to think they don't need proper
tools and information to live in the physical world.
Luckily, I was poor and had to go to school when I
could afford it. My BFA took decades.
Thanks to that dilemma, I ran into many amazing artists
who also realized they needed science as well.
Diane Mead
Jim Bozeman on thu 1 jun 00
Vince, You make statements like you think every school bends over backwards
to help their students. Well the school I attended really put a lot of
barriars in front of me that I had to hurdle. I finally got sick of trying
to educate my self THEIR way and took charge of my education. The chair of
the clay department didn't even know how to do glaze theory, so I learned it
on my own. The chair of the clay department encouraged me to make
post-modernist crap. They tried to teach me that work made on the wheel was
inferior to their post-modernist crap. Well in the end, I'm making my living
off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
yourself off of the sale of your work Vince. Jim Bozeman
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Ray Aldridge on thu 1 jun 00
At 01:48 PM 6/1/00 PDT, you wrote:
>Vince, You make statements like you think every school bends over backwards
>to help their students. Well the school I attended really put a lot of
>barriars in front of me that I had to hurdle. I finally got sick of trying
>to educate my self THEIR way and took charge of my education. The chair of
>the clay department didn't even know how to do glaze theory, so I learned it
>on my own. The chair of the clay department encouraged me to make
>post-modernist crap. They tried to teach me that work made on the wheel was
>inferior to their post-modernist crap. Well in the end, I'm making my living
>off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
>yourself off of the sale of your work Vince. Jim Bozeman
Jim, this seems a bit unfair. One of the several reasons that I have a lot
of respect for Vince's views, even when we don't agree, is that he was a
production potter before he was an academic.
I have to admit that I had a bad experience with academe, back when I was a
young potter. It soured my view of academia for many years. But even if a
lot of jerks have found safe harbor in ivory towers, the fact remains that
some of the best potters in the world do their work at universities.
Frankly, I envy them their good fortune.
Ray
Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
http://www.goodpots.com
Gayle Bair on fri 2 jun 00
snip- Well in the end, I'm making my living
off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
yourself off of the sale of your work Vince. Jim Bozeman
..............................
Ouch Jim,
Haven't you been reading the thread about getting personal???
I do not think that all of us need or want to support ourselves
off the sale of our work.
I have taken many workshops with famous potters who have not
supported themselves with the sale of their work.
I commend you for doing so if that is what was your goal.
If you are stuck in producing work that no longer appeals to
you then you have my sympathy. I've seen that as I worked
with such a person and it was very sad.
Now don't get me wrong I had similar battles while in college with
ineffectual professors that insisted you did work in their "image".
I switched from painting to printmaking for that reason. I also
would not idolize them. Out of my 4 years only one professor was
a true teacher.... and his is the only name I remember from college.
Several years ago I took a workshop with a famous potter who is a professor
in a prestigious college. I must tell you I had a violent
reaction to what I PERCEIVED as his style of throwing, demeanor, college
babble, limited communication skills and the fact that he doesn't sell much
of his work. I bitched no end about the workshop. Now, I will also tell you
that I may have gotten more out of that workshop than the others I have
taken. I can not explain that, it is just what happened.
So I think you are out of line and should think about it!
Gayle Bair-with finger hovering over the delete button
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Christopher Foxwell on fri 2 jun 00
You people are making my life hell. I guess it's my own fault for reading
this thread but the deed is done. I'm currently trying to decide between
two schools. One is an art school where the focus is on BIG things and a
liberal arts school where the focus is probably a little ambiguous. I would
like to make big sculptural pieces but I also like to make utilitarian
pieces. From talking to people, utilitarian is frowned upon at art schools
and the resources; large, multiple types of kilns, are lacking at smaller
schools. And, if I don't or can't get into teaching, I'm just throwing my
money down the crapper anyway. Thank you all very much.:-)
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Gail Dapogny on fri 2 jun 00
Many of us without ceramic arts degrees have been to a number of ceramic
workshops and learned a tremendous amount of stuff from each of them. These
workshops range from one- or two-day events, to several days or even weeks
long. Some of the information takes time to find a niche in our own
experience.
But consider: most or a great many of these workshops (as well as many of
those at the prestigious craft centers) are taught by ceramic artists who
teach at universities.
Imagine the exposure you get at a one- or two-day workshop spread over a
semester or more! Take the wealth of information bits that we constantly
get on CLAYART and magnify it . Take the generous and patient and
informative teachers on this list--- Vince, Marcia, Dannon, Ron, Linda,
Doug, Mel, Hank, Paul, Tom, David, Kurt, Nils, Richard, Joe, John, and on
and on... all the others whom I've left out-- and imagine studying with
them...not for just a day!
The various roads to information-- studio, workshop, reading, academic,
etc.-- continually (and ideally) overlap in our experience, and so do the
people involved.
You with the ceramic degrees...don't knock it. That background --technical
and exploratory-- is resting in there providing you with resources that
will eventually find their place in your experience.
-----Gail
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny
Earl Brunner on fri 2 jun 00
I well remember one instructor when I was working on my BFA
that insisted on requiring projects made from materials that
couldn't be purchased at the University bookstore. He said
he was tired of students that went through their whole
schooling and never found out where to locate materials in
the "real world".
Randall Moody wrote:
> You should have been charge of your education from the outset. I recently
> graduated with my BFA and had many of the same gripes that I have heard here
> on clayart, but I must take responsiblility for my part in the system. I
> came to the system expecting to be force fed like a new bird waiting to have
> the worms of wisdom crammed down my throat. I was wrong. The university
> system is geared much differently than the primary and secondary systems in
> that you don't have to go to a university. Also, I you don't like it, the
> exits are clearly marked.
>
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Randall Moody on fri 2 jun 00
> Well the school I attended really put a lot of
> barriars in front of me that I had to hurdle. I finally got sick of trying
> to educate my self THEIR way and took charge of my education.
You should have been charge of your education from the outset. I recently
graduated with my BFA and had many of the same gripes that I have heard here
on clayart, but I must take responsiblility for my part in the system. I
came to the system expecting to be force fed like a new bird waiting to have
the worms of wisdom crammed down my throat. I was wrong. The university
system is geared much differently than the primary and secondary systems in
that you don't have to go to a university. Also, I you don't like it, the
exits are clearly marked.
> The chair of
> the clay department didn't even know how to do glaze theory, so I learned
it
> on my own. The chair of the clay department encouraged me to make
> post-modernist crap. They tried to teach me that work made on the wheel
was
> inferior to their post-modernist crap.
It is great that you learned glaze theory on your own, you are probably
better for it. But the I think it is fair to say that the chair encouraged
you to make post-modernist "art." You more than likly supplied the "crap"
due to your obvious dislike of the movement. We rarely do well what we are
forced to do. My instructor tried to make people stop making things that
were comfortable for them to make. One person was really good at plates and
platters, if given a choice that is what he would have done ad infinitum.
The pofessor actually told him that if he saw another plate at a critique he
would fail. Now the student is making wonderful sculptures of cityscapes.
> Well in the end, I'm making my living
> off of the sale of my artwork and they aren't. I bet you couldn't support
> yourself off of the sale of your work Vince.
Have you seen Vince's work? You may be making a fool's bet. I know a few
ceramic artist that are fantastic technicians but their 'art' is pedistrian.
They make 'nice' things but in the end that is as far as the piece can go...
nice.
Jeff Lawrence on sun 4 jun 00
Hello,
I am intrigued by the range of opinion on this topic and glad that the
necessity for technical awareness informs at least Louis Katz's new program.
I am unpersuaded, though, by the assertion several folks have made, that
since technical background should be acquired during undergraduate studies,
MFA programs are absolved of responsibility for technical competetence in
the persons who get their degrees. By analogy, if a medical student doesn't
know the difference between barium carbonate (poisonous) and barium sulfate
(inert), should she get an M.D. anyway, since that is an undergraduate
chemistry issue?
This point sounds very much like a punt (to football-deficient nations: a
"punt" is a play in football to deflect attention from your untenable
position; not unrelated to cruising along in a boat that only floats when
nobody rocks it).
Jeff
vince pitelka on mon 5 jun 00
> I am unpersuaded, though, by the assertion several folks have made, that
> since technical background should be acquired during undergraduate
studies,
> MFA programs are absolved of responsibility for technical competetence in
> the persons who get their degrees. By analogy, if a medical student
doesn't
> know the difference between barium carbonate (poisonous) and barium
sulfate
> (inert), should she get an M.D. anyway, since that is an undergraduate
> chemistry issue?
Jeff-
In the messages I have read no one ever said this. It is a fact that
undergraduate programs are responsible for technical grounding, and if they
fail in that regard it is hard to make up for it in grad school. As I
clearly said, graduate faculty should keep a vigilant eye on the technical
competence of their grad students, and suggest remedial studies wherever
necessary. There had been a lot of interesting discussion on this topic,
but let's not prolongue it unnecessarily.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
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