Joyce Lee on sat 3 jun 00
Correct me if I'm wrong.... please do...... but I've heard and read
often that there are many more graduates of MFA programs seeking jobs in
their field than there are jobs available..... and
that the art/ceramic employment available on the college or university
level is very limited. Not true? Several clayarters have mentioned that
they're either anticipating enrolling (or wishing they had enrolled) in
an MFA program and then "getting a job in a university" as if that were
an automatic extension of the degree program. Maybe the art/ceramic
scene has changed in the last few years; if so, I'd like to know since I
sometimes still respond to requests for educational guidance from recent
high school graduates, and I'm still advising the ones who want to
continue with art and pottery especially to look into the job market and
to ask for statistics as to how many graduates the school they hope to
attend is placing into even beginning level art positions....
anywhere...... or in ANY school... much less at a post-secondary
institute. When I have communicated with art departments of major
universities concerning such stats, the inference has been that the
college or university is NOT in the employment business, but in the
business of education. Actually I tend to agree with that position,
vacillating occasionally in some cases, but I think that the enrolling
student should be given this information early on. If that isn't going
to happen in this lifetime for fear of losing further tuition monies,
then the students who care must ask the question themselves about
possible employment. I am eager to be enlightened if this is no longer a
viable attitude ..... thank you very much for thinking and responding
(if you do) since some critical decisions may be made based on your
information. I don't like to think it, but it is not likely that I'll
get more pertinent or recent information from major colleges and
universities than I will from our claybuds and gurus. AND I am an
educator with considerable faith that formal education is important in
any field ..... even if just to have a nationally accepted shared body
of knowledge ... but, based on experience, little faith that incoming
freshmen (or their parents who are paying big bucks) are given much
factual information about the educational process and how it will
prepare them for society...... real society... a working society. There
is much info available about dorm living, binge drinking, anorexia,
social groups, attending classes, financing via grants and loans etc.
The most thorough grounding in scholastic expectations, by the way, came
from tech and trade schools ... automotive, computers, nursing, design.
HOw many MFA graduates do YOU know who are working for slightly above
minimum wage at part-time jobs in galleries, art supply houses and
assistant jobs on school campuses ... just to hang on to some semblance
of being part of the art world?? I know many. Maybe California is the
exception. If so, please tell me. I think that on Clayart we have a
skewered perspective because so many of our gurus ARE art teachers with
good positions ... but it's my feeling that they are the exceptions ...
both in proven academic ability and in being in the right place at the
right time.... not so?
Joyce
In the Mojave
Cindy Strnad on sun 4 jun 00
Hi, Joyce.
As you know, I'm not an expert in this field, but I'd like to comment
anyway. Just put in my two cents. I love going to school. I love learning
new things and will never stop, and if I could afford it, I'd probably go
for another degree in one thing or another, but I believe it's more sensible
for people to pursue a degree for the sake of gaining the knowledge and
experience available in a study environment than for the hope of raking in
the bucks when they hit the "real world".
The idea of getting a master's degree in hope of future increased earning
potential *directly* related to having a master's degree often leads to
disappointment. The original idea behind these degrees, if I remember
correctly, was to produce a well-rounded person--not necessarily an
employable person.
Most of the folks I know who own one of these coveted master's degrees
aren't making as much money as your average self-employed, successful small
business person (who graduated from HS and then went to work). I'll never
forget the remark of my favorite history teacher in HS. He had something
like six or seven brothers and they were a black family in the south, during
a time when race made things even harder than it does now. Nevertheless, his
father managed to put all the children except one through college. The one
who chose not to go to college went into business for himself, and my
teacher told me ruefully, "He's making more money than any of the rest of
us."
Now that's not to say that making more money is the be-all and end-all to
success. Of course, on the other hand, if you can't pay your light bill, all
the letters behind your name probably won't comfort you or your family a
great deal. There's got to be a balance. Academic knowledge is important.
Making enough money is important. But the first does not necessarily lead to
the second. Sometimes the knowledge we really need can only be got through
living, taking the knocks, and keeping on.j
So, my conclusion is that people need to have realistic expectations as to
what they will get from higher education. They will get (one hopes) a more
well-rounded knowledge base--a foundation which will help them to ground the
knowledge they will, in the future, gather from the "real world". They will
*not* get a pre-packaged success kit which will guarantee them a good
job/successful business and a continuing and adequate income throughout
life. As long as people understand what they're buying, there should be
fewer problems with disappointed expectations.
Cindy Strnad
earthenv@gwtc.net
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
WHew536674@CS.COM on sun 4 jun 00
Good post Joyce! And good questions. I have wondered the same. One way to
find out possibly is to find out how many jobs are open at the National Art
Association convention that is held in Jan, if it is still going on. Been
years since I attended, (actually more like decades, but we won't go there)
The last one I read about had 3,500 applicants for 350 jobs, and that was
years ago. U.of T. Pan Am just started an MFA program, and I thought to
myself...Why? One thing they did do though, was bring in a new fellow with a
real strong graphic design back ground in computer graphics. There is a need
for that and available jobs, but as for the Fine Arts, I'd like to know also.
Since I am now at a community college, I would like some more answers along
those lines so I can be more prepared to give some better advice to the art
majors around and better prepare them for the future. Potters have an edge,
they can sell their work quicker than a painter. Is there anyone out there
that has attended a conference lately? I went to a couple right out of grad
school and it was a cattle market back then, had a good time but never got a
job attending one.
Joyce A
Mission, TX
vince pitelka on mon 5 jun 00
Regarding Joyce's post, it is true that there are way more MFA grads than
there are jobs. One should not view the MFA alone as the path to a higher
education teaching job. Long ago it used to be that MFA jobs were recruited
right out of grad school, but those days are long gone. Now it is necessary
to build up a good resume after the MFA. One of the contradictions of most
job listings in the Chronicle of Higer Education or the CAA (College Art
Association) job listings, is that they require three years of full-time
college teaching experience for an entry-level teaching position.
What is the solution? Do the very best work you can in grad school. Do as
much teaching as you can in the art program. Do as much teaching as you can
outside of the art program (other schools, community and museum programs,
etc.), and after grad school apply for residencies, apply for temporary
positions and sabbatical replacement positions. No matter what, figure out
a way to keep doing your work after grad school, and keep entering
exhibitions and arranging shows at any good venue. It is a great deal of
work, but of course it is completely worth it.
I have stated before that ANYONE who wants a full time tenure-track college
teaching position can get one if they are really committed to that goal. It
may require moving somewhere where adjunct faculty are in demand, so that
you can build up some years of part-time teching experience. In the
listings they SAY full-time experience, but they know that this is a
catch-22 situation. What they are really looking for is people who
demonstrate a strong commitment to teaching, who stick to their goals, who
are productive and do good work. They are also looking for people who will
make good colleagues, and I would say that a good energy and a positive
attitude are of foremost importance there.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on mon 5 jun 00
> As you know, I'm not an expert in this field, but I'd like to comment
> anyway. Just put in my two cents. I love going to school. I love learning
> new things and will never stop, and if I could afford it, I'd probably go
> for another degree in one thing or another, but I believe it's more
sensible
> for people to pursue a degree for the sake of gaining the knowledge and
> experience available in a study environment than for the hope of raking in
> the bucks when they hit the "real world".
Cindy -
You make a very good point. If a person pursues undergraduate and graduate
school because they love what they are doing, because they crave more
education and experience, and because they want to enrich their life
(absoutely the best investment one can possibly make) their chances of
getting a good job are a hell of a lot better than for someone who is just
following a career track.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
douglas gray on mon 5 jun 00
In message Joyce Lee writes:
> Correct me if I'm wrong.... please do...... but I've heard and read
> often that there are many more graduates of MFA programs seeking jobs in
> their field than there are jobs available..... and
> that the art/ceramic employment available on the college or university
> level is very limited. Not true?
True, but I would like to offer another perspective. For a couple of years now
articles have been published in US journals like the Chronical of Higher
Education which suggest some hope for graduates with degrees in the humanities.
It probably comes as no surprise, but the largest number of college graduates
these days are completing degrees in business, law and medical schools with
dropping enrollments in more traditional Arts and Science disciplines. This
trend has been going on for some time now and shows no sign that it has slowed.
Another notable fact is that the average age of college professor is within ten
years of retirement. So within 10 - 15 years, many college positions will
become available.
What this means is up to interpretation, but some researchers believe that there
will be a growing demand for graduates with degrees in the humanities such as
art, english, history, music, etc. Fewer qualified graduates and more vacant
positions would suggest that sometime in the near future there might actually
be a demand for college teachers.
We've already begun to see evidence of this in K-12 education in areas of the
US. South Carolina has declared that several disciplines (art included) are
critical need priorities and has been pulling nationally acredited teachers from
where ever they can get them. I know that they have recruited heavily in KY and
TN and as of the past 5 years, we here at Francis Marion University have had a
nearly perfect (98%) placement record with our undergraduate art education
majors. So I would say there is a need.
I can't say that I've seen this same trend at the college level though.
Predictions aside, I know several MFA grads that are unemployed or
underemployed. And for those who do eventually get full time teaching
positions, it is not uncommon to spend the first two years after graduation
teaching part time just to get some experience on the resume.
I agree with Joyce that it is a difficult path. I suspect that a single
advertised position can get any where from 30-50 applicants at small colleges
and 150-200 applicants at the larger universities. Tough odds, but I don't
think it's so impossible that we should discourage anyone from pursuing that
goal. From my own experience, I know that not everyone who graduates with an
MFA is interested in teaching. Some use it purely as an educational experience.
Many use the opportunity to refine skills and cultivate ideas so that they can
become studio artist (another tough road to say the least, but still possible).
So there really doesn't need to be teaching position for every MFA graduate. It
would be nice if there were more available for those who truly wish to teach.
I sincerely hope there is some substance to the reports floating about. My
father has been the Dean of Graduate Studies at Western KY University for years
and he believed those published statistics enough to encourage me to pursue my
MFA when I had my doubts even ten years ago. He also reminded me that when
assessing career goals, success is more than just recognition and that rewards
can't always be measured by salary--the perfect mantra for most educatosr these
days.
doug
Douglas E. Gray, Assistant Professor of Art
P.O. Box 100547
Department of Fine Arts and Mass Communication
Francis Marion University
Florence, South Carolina 29501-0547
dgray@fmarion.edu
phone 843/661-1535
fax 843/661-1432
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