TexasMudWoman@AOL.COM on thu 27 jul 00
In a message dated 7/27/00 5:24:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
melpots@PCLINK.COM writes:
<< we use a time honored material, clay. it can account for the history of
the
world, the soldner pieces will not be a part of that history. too bad for
him,
and perhaps he does not care, i do not know that. it is just sad that the
stuff will not last. he is a clay artist, it should. >>
But wait..do we know this for a fact? Or is it rumor? If it is true, what
percentage has fallen apart? Is it a large percentage or one or two? I
think we should be careful here, particularly with the reputation of a man
who has given this field so much. Just a thought.
Vicki Hardin
iloveclay.com
mel jacobson on fri 28 jul 00
i think many clay artists take pride in the fact that our work will last for
thousands of years...it separates us from the paper folks. Most paper art has
a life span of maybe
two hundred years...at best. with bad conservation 50 years. photos taken
to one hour processing are going to be pink and baby blue in 10 years...pure
white 20. no one seems to care. (take a roll of black and white once a year)
i have photos of grandparents that are perfect. 100 years old...black and
white.
i have seen copper matt glazes selling for hundreds of dollars that are pure
brown
today. who takes responsibility for that? artists say `time is fleeting,
you get what happens`...the new mentality, don't take responsibility, bullshit
em. (or, `oh, mel, join the new world of bullshit`...sorry, won't.
we use a time honored material, clay. it can account for the history of the
world, the soldner pieces will not be a part of that history. too bad for him,
and perhaps he does not care, i do not know that. it is just sad that the
stuff will not last. he is a clay artist, it should.
i know from my standpoint that i want my pots to last. fired hot, hard
and made to be a part of history....i have even joked that some day, far
in the future,my junk pile in the deep back yard will be found and wondered
over.
on new years eve, on occasion, i have had guests make plaques of clay with
a message to the future written on them...i fire them to cone 10, take
them to a frozen lake and dump them down a fishing hole through the ice.
they will be found thousands of years from now perhaps. folks like to
do that. it is a message to the future...i do not even read them, just drop
them. they are just stones with writing on them...no threat to the lake
bottom.
i think i have been around the art world long enough to understand fragile
art, art think speak. i have three art degrees and have discussed
the thoughts of young artists til my mind was numb. i always bring up the
word `responsiblity`....and often i get a blank stare. just had that
experience
last month, the answer to me was, `i am only responsible to myself`. sad.
we have the ability as clay artists to control our work so that it will last.
even
if you think your work should not last, well, let someone else decide..they can
throw it away. i think we do have a responsibility to the future. i do
believe that.
in fact,i feel that the concept of responsibility is essential to our
existence.
mel
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
written from the farm in wisconsin
Don & June MacDonald on fri 28 jul 00
A quote from Marguerite Waldenhain expresses what I consider important
about pots.
"As fleeting as clouds are publicity, fame, and limelight, but the good
pot will endure for centuries because of its integrity, its sound and
pure purpose, its original beauty, and especially because it is the
indivisible, incorruptible and complete expression of a human being."
I suspect that Paul Soldner's pieces that are crumbling were originally
an experimental approach to firing clay. In his words, "try it and
see". We all know that sometimes trying ideas sometimes leads to
success and sometimes does not. I know that I would be disappointed if
I had bought one of his pieces that subsequently fell apart. Is it
possible that one of the reasons that Soldner went on to cast pieces in
bronze was in an effort to maintain the integrity of those pieces?
I liked what Mel had to say about responsibility, I agree that one
should do the best one can to be responsible, creating products that
function as they are meant to, with glazes or finishes that will endure.
However, if one experiments, and without experimentation sometimes there
is no growth, there is also the risk that the end result may be unequal
to the test of time.
Now, do I have enough lifetime left to produce that one "good" pot?
June from B.C. where two days of rain have watered the plants
sufficiently so that we can go away for three days without worrying
about the gardens.
mel jacobson wrote:
>
> i think many clay artists take pride in the fact that our work will last for thousands of years.
>
> i have seen copper matt glazes selling for hundreds of dollars that are pure
> brown
> today. who takes responsibility for that?
>
> we use a time honored material, clay. it can account for the history of the
> world, the soldner pieces will not be a part of that history. too bad for him,
> and perhaps he does not care, i do not know that. it is just sad that the
> stuff will not last.
> we have the ability as clay artists to control our work so that it will last.
> in fact,i feel that the concept of responsibility is essential to our
> existence.
> mel
>
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> written from the farm in wisconsin
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Tom Wirt/Betsy Price on sat 29 jul 00
Subject: Re: crumbling art
> I suspect that Paul Soldner's pieces that are crumbling were originally
> an experimental approach to firing clay. In his words, "try it and
> see".
> I liked what Mel had to say about responsibility, I agree that one
> should do the best one can to be responsible, creating products that
> function as they are meant to, with glazes or finishes that will endure.
> However, if one experiments, and without experimentation sometimes there
> is no growth, there is also the risk that the end result may be unequal
> to the test of time.
>
>
> > in fact,i feel that the concept of responsibility is essential to our
> > existence.
> > mel
I'm going to say it again....you are not just responsible to yourself if you
put untested, short-lived work out there....you are responsible to the
entire clay community. If you sell a piece that doesn't perform as the
customer can reasonably expect, functional or decorative, you not only hurt
yourself, you hurt all he other potters from whom that person might have
later bought pottery.
Consumers today are "once bitten, twice shy". They get burned in too many
of their purchase and have learned to shift their buying habits rather than
take risks. We hear it every day how someone hasn't bought pottery in 20
years because they once had a casserole crack.
Experimentation is fine...just don't sell it.
"We have seen the future and it is us" --Walt Kelly (I think).
Tom Wirt
Clay Coyote Pottery
claypot@hutchtel.net
Larry Phillips on mon 31 jul 00
Veena Raghavan wrote:
>
> But if a work of pottery is meant to endure and it crumbles to dust over a
> short period of time, what does it say about the work of all potters?
Nothing at all.
> Does it not reflect on all of us?
No, or at least no more so than a badly built house reflects on all
carpenters. Should I apologize for someone else's bad design? A garish
glaze? A pot that I wouldn't have in my house? Of course not. My pots
are what I take responsibility for, and whatever I put out there
reflects only on my own skills and taste. I refuse to consider a bad pot
a reflection on myself, unless I made it.
> And does it not color the feelings of those who appreciate and love to use
> pottery even though they do not create it?
Possibly. If that person tars all potters with the same brush as the one
that produced a poor pot, though, he is not being fair.
> It is more than possible that I am totally wrong in my
> assumptions, and if so, I apoligise for taking up everyone's time.
Never apologize for stating a sincerely held opinion. You are entitled
to it, just as anyone else is entitled to agree or disagree.
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
Veena Raghavan on mon 31 jul 00
As a potter who feels very passionate about pottery and who has a deep and
profound love of clay, I would like to join those who are concerned at the
lack of pride some potters seem to have in the durability and safety of the
wares they make and sell. There was a time, some years ago, when I did not
know any better. I was ignorant. But I educated myself by reading,
attending workshops, and by being a part of Clayart. I have realized the
importance of producing work in clay that will be durable. I do not know if
anyone will see my work a hundred or more years from now, but I would like
to think that I have done everything in my power to make my work a part of
some small history somewhere.
We live in a disposable age of paper and plastic products. But, we potters
have an opportunity to produce work that can be appreciated for years and
years to come. It will not melt in the rain, it will not fade in the
sunlight, and it will endure, if we make the effort to produce work of a
certain quality. I have known people who do not care whether the work they
produce is vitrified, if the glazes will eventually crumble off, if the
copper matts will tarnish and turn brown, and if the glazes they are using
are safe for functional ware. Being a passionate person, I feel
passionately angry, because I feel they are abusing all potters and
pottery. If a pot crumbles and disintegrates, and it is meant to do so, it
returns to the earth, as is the case with some very low fired unglazed
wares in Asia. But if a work of pottery is meant to endure and it crumbles
to dust over a short period of time, what does it say about the work of all
potters? Does it not reflect on all of us? And does it not color the
feelings of those who appreciate and love to use pottery even though they
do not create it?
Sorry to be so long winded, but this thread touched on something that has
been upsetting me for years. I look at how pottery is appreciated and
admired throughout Europe and England, and I lament that, in the United
States, the appreciation of pottery is by a much smaller community. I
sometimes wonder whether this is because of cultural differences, or if it
is also a reflection of standards. Is quality part of the issue here..the
fact that there is quite a lot of pottery out there that does not have any
standards? It is more than possible that I am totally wrong in my
assumptions, and if so, I apoligise for taking up everyone's time.
Veena
Veena Raghavan
75124.2520@compuserve.com
Veena Raghavan on wed 2 aug 00
Larry,
Thanks for your response.
I do think that inferior work in the "market" helps to destroy the
credibility of other potters, because too many customers are not terribly
educated about pottery. If they have one bad experience, it will tend to
put them off handmade pottery.
I agree, you should not have to apologize for another's inferior design, a
garish glaze, or a pot that you would not have in your house. I also agree
that you only take responsibility for your pots, as I do mine, and I wish
this could be sufficient. My children tell me that I live in a world that
no longer exists, because I expect others to operate within the same
ethical guidelines that were set for me and by which I live. I realize that
this is not realistic. I know I am honest and that there are others who are
not. Their dishonesty does not reflect on my actions, but it does have an
affect on the society I live in. Is it not the same in the world of art and
craft?
I have found, and at 62 I seem to have been a slow learner, that the world
just isn't fair. So, although it might not be fair for someone to judge all
potters by the work of one or two, it certainly does tend to have that
affect on many customers.
Thanks for telling me never to apologize for stating a sincerely held
opinion. I must learn, among other things, not to do that. It seems to be a
habit, also from the past.
I have to add that I hope that as the years go by, I will see less and less
pottery that does not meet basic standards. I am beginning a new phase in
my life of pottery, and I think that I will now finally have the
opportunity of mixing with fellow professionals. I am sure that this will
bolster my faith in the process as has my experience with Clayart.
All the best and thanks again.
Veena
Veena Raghavan
75124.2520@compuserve.com
Ron Roy on wed 2 aug 00
I think Veena is right on here. Ask any potter who has been trying to sell
hand made pots when there has been a lead glaze scare in the local press.
Think of what goes through the average persons mind when they pay $25 for a
casserole and it cracks in use after only a few uses. I'll tell you what
they don't do - run out and buy another. Same thing with tea pots.
It's a matter of craftsmanship and caring.
RR
>I do think that inferior work in the "market" helps to destroy the
>credibility of other potters, because too many customers are not terribly
>educated about pottery. If they have one bad experience, it will tend to
>put them off handmade pottery.
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough
Ontario, Canada
M1G 3N8
Evenings 416-439-2621
Fax 416-438-7849
iandol on thu 3 aug 00
About 25 years ago an Australian prime minister approved the purchase of =
a painting for the sum of about Au$ 6 million. Today it is crumbling =
because the painter used commercial paint. But it is still a work of art =
and an inspiration for many people who view it.
The Artist, Jackson Pollack. The Painting, Blue Poles. Current value, =
priceless.
Art conservation is a degree subject at many universities, a worthwhile =
enterprise and a great career for creative people. No doubt the work of =
avant guarde ceramic artists will come under their scrutiny and benefit =
from their skill in future years.
Ivor Lewis.
JIMV062@AOL.COM on thu 3 aug 00
Ron..you are right about craftsmanship, etc, but it is also a matter of
honesty... does everyone remember that word?.. How can you sell a pot to
someone to cook in when you know that it is NOT ovenware or fire ware. If
it is used in a oven,, it might make it through the cooking/cooling process a
couple of times -- but, you know it will fail. It is just a matter of
time...not to mention the possibility that someone might be badly burned if
is cracks while being handled, or the mess in someone's oven...........No
they wont buy another, would you?
Maybe i miss a sale, but i can sleep at night... Jim in Dallas
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