Larry Phillips on tue 22 aug 00
> At 01:50 PM 08/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm new to this list. I am an architect/artist that has a passion for
> bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai receptacles. I
> have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
> kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel that the
> kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were getting your
> first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
As someone else has pointed out, most bonsai containers are not thrown.
If you have decided that you really must have a wheel to do bonsai
containers, and realize that there is a lot more to throwing well than
it would appear from watching a potter, then your decision should be
based on whether or not you will continue to throw after having made a
few bonsai containers.
You can buy a kickwheel for a LOT less money than an electric, and the
kickwheels are a lot more readily available. I picked up a kickwheel for
under $200 Cdn (about $130 US), that I later motorized (at an additional
cost of about $3.00 for a hinge, and a surplus motor I had laying
around), so that now I have the choice. I tend to use the motor for
centering and pulls, and kick it for low speed finishing and decorating.
If I ever consider myself a potter, I might just spring for a fancy
electric, but then again, maybe I'll just stick with what I have.
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
laura on tue 22 aug 00
I would go with a kickwheel or otherwhise human powered wheel to start with.
At the University of South Dakota, our instructor refused to convert the
umpteen kickwheels to electric power because (and I quote loosely) "Learning
to throw is a frustrating experience, and it's human nature to vent
frustration on the closest thing possible. In pottery, that's your wheel."
And with an electric wheel, that means speed, speed, and more speed, usually
at the point when you should be slowing down.
That said, I also would recommend slab, coil, or other hand-building
processes, as did another respondent. You'll probably have a more rewarding
experience. Another possibility that would be worth your time is education
through an individual instructor or a local college (courses can usually be
audited for a minimal fee).
Good luck on your new adventure!
Lo in SD
Gayle Bair on tue 22 aug 00
Dear Luis,
When you said researched wheels does that mean
you actually used them?
I suggest you to take a class
where there are different types of wheels.
I think wheels are very personal like buying
a pair of shoes. It needs to fit correctly or
you will always be uncomfortable.
Spend some time on different wheels and you
will find the one best suited to your needs.
I cannot say the kickwheel provided
more control. I am glad my first experience
was on a kickwheel but I bought a electric
wheel for my studio. I feel I have more control
with my electric CI (Creative Industry) wheel
but this again may be a personal issue.
I spent a year trying out different wheels
before I bought one.
You might also find you prefer to handbuild
bonsai pots. You might not even need a wheel
unless, like myself, you get hooked!
Gayle Bair- where there was a glorious
summer day on Bainbridge Island, WA
Snip> I
have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel that the
kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were getting your
first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
mel jacobson on tue 22 aug 00
At 01:50 PM 08/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
Hello all,
I'm new to this list. I am an architect/artist that has a passion for
bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai receptacles. I
have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel that the
kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were getting your
first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
Thanks in advance!
Luis Fontanills
Miami, Florida USA
FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
Jean Cochran on tue 22 aug 00
If I were getting a wheel for the first time, it would be electric, a
Brent C. I learned on a kick wheel, so can speak from my own
experience. You'll probably have as many opinions, however, as there
are potters.
Good luck.
Jean Wadsworth Cochran
Hank Murrow on tue 22 aug 00
Luis wrote
I am an architect/artist that has a passion for
>bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai receptacles. I
>have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
>kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel that the
>kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were getting your
>first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
Dear Luis; It is hard to advise concerning the virtues of each type of
wheel. I learned on a momentum type (the 'german' kickwheel) similar to
those used by Marguerite Wildenhain at Pond Farm. Having a momentum type
means you must learn the virtue of conserving energy, avoiding the
'leadfoot' syndrome so prevalent with electrics. However, I now use an
electric wheel for everything save decoration, for which I require the slow
speed control of the kickwheel(a Soldner). However, on reflection I think
it is very important HOW you learn on either type. I taught pottery at U of
Ohio, Anderson Ranch, and U of Oregon; and In all that time comprising
hundreds of students, only two followed my advice, and both were soon very
accomplished throwers, and later on, potters.
The advice was simply to get two dozen 1# balls of clay in a bowl
in front of you and give yourself (with an egg timer) exactly 2 minutes per
lump. When the dinger goes, cut it off and start a new one. Make no attempt
to 'save' any piece. Do this until you have gone through your bowlful of
balls, and wedge it up and divide into balls again if you have the time to
do another set. Repeat this exercise until you are able to pull up the clay
once or twice within the 2 minute window; then try 2# balls until you
master them, and so on. Again DO NOT Save any pieces, as they are not
pottery, just practice. The Main Thing is not to get suckered in to saving
pieces which are not and never will be centered. This ensures the needed
repetition of the critical beginning steps. If you follow this regime for 3
months with 500 # of clay continually recycled_____you will be a thrower,
if not yet a potter. Wishing You the Best, Hank in Eugene
Dave Eitel on tue 22 aug 00
>At 01:50 PM 08/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>I'm new to this list. I am an architect/artist that has a passion for
>bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai receptacles. I
>have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
>kickwheels).
I think you're putting the wheel before the pot. It most of the
bonsai containers I've seen look like they would be hand built more
easily than thrown. Many are oval or rectangular. Whereas almost
anyone can make a slab pot on the first try, learning to throw can be
a long process.
But if you must throw it, I've been a proponent of the Leach treadle
wheel for a long time. It is easier to use than a kickwheel, but has
even more control. In the electric wheel category I'd recommend
Soldners for control.
Dave Eitel
Cedar Creek Pottery
Cedarburg, WI 53012
http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on wed 23 aug 00
In a message dated 08/22/2000 5:03:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
melpots@PCLINK.COM writes:
<< Is this accurate? If you were getting your
first wheel would you get a kickwheel? >>
Yes, but not enough for everyone to prefer a kick wheel. You can adjust to
either and make both work for you. Some potters prefer an electric wheel and
the energy it saves you in not having to kick. Most people go with which
ever they have learned on. I learned on a kick wheel and then bought a
Thomas Stuart(may be mispelled) kick wheel that has an attached motor. I use
the motor for centering and am pleased with this set up.
Susan
Alisa and Claus Clausen on wed 23 aug 00
On buying any equipment, I think it is prudent to buy equipment you can =
grow into. Such as a stronger model wheel or sightly bigger
kiln than maybe you feel need at the moment you are buying. You will =
undoubtedly advance your skills and output and you will then
have the equipment to produce your work. I have an electric wheel, a =
Brent CXC. I rarely have need for the power of a full horse.
I center clay pads on top of clay pads to save my wrists from trying to =
center 10 kilos in one go. BUT, if I wanted to, I could on the=20
wheel I have. A wheel with a half horse power is usually strong enough =
for people not throwing very weighty pots.
The difference between a kick and electric is personal. I could =
probably manage with a kick, a well weighted kick with a good
frame to sit on, but otherwise I choose electric because for long =
throwing sessions, it saves my energy for other chores. But if=20
I was throwing for more or less hobby, I like a kick wheel because it =
gives a nice rythm between kicking and throwing.
Good luck,
Alisa in Denmark
Lee Love on wed 23 aug 00
Luis,
I'd recommend taking a class and trying out different wheels. It
is a more personal choice than picking what kind of instrument you write
with or what type of car you drive. A competent potter can make good pots
off of any kind of wheel. The sensitivity comes from the potter and not
the wheel. The main advantage of an electric wheel is that it is easier
to center larger amounts of clay on it. But a motorized kickwheel has that
advantage too. The main advantage of the kick wheel is that it is quiet
and forces you into a natural rhythm. There is something "Zen" about a
kickwheel.
I learned on Lockerbies and Leach wheels. I really like the
Lockerbie for its type of wheel. They are built like Mack trucks. Mostly,
I liked the Leach for decorating and trimming on. They are very easy to
reverse direction on. Someday, I'd like to have one of each: a
Lockerbie and a Leach to add to my Korean and Shimpo Gold. They each have
their strengths. The first wheel I bought was a Shimpo Gold. I went with
it because in the beginning, I used to throw on my front porch in the summer
and in my kitchen when it got cold (in Minnesota, it is more often cold than
warm.) The Shimpo is very portable.
Since February, I've been working on a wooden Korean type kickwheel
here in Japan, both where I am studying and at my studio at home. I really
like these wheels. I've mentioned here before, that I can throw all day
for weeks at a time (6 day weeks) and not really feel it. One thing I have
noticed on my 80 year old Sensei, is that his right leg is about a third
again as big as his left leg. *haha!* But most of us will never throw
enough to have to worry about that. ;^)
At home on my electric, it was more difficult. I think it
is a matter of posture, sitting on a platform instead of a chair and also
the movement required in kicking the wheel (I pull with my left foot and
kick with my right foot.) On my electric, I used to get cramps in my pedal
leg. I did find some relief on the electric by putting the wheel on milk
crates and sitting on a bar height stool. When I threw off the hump and had
to center 25lbs or more of clay, I could put my feet on the crates so I
could use my thighs to steady myself on. But still, it wasn't as
comfortable as what I am doing now.
The Korean requires more frequent kicking than a Lockerbie type
western wheel, especially when you are centering a large hump of clay.
They are wooden and don't have the weight or the accompanying momentum.
You really don't spin the wheel as much as you are turning it when you are
centering a large hump (softer clay helps.) But after you have the hump
coned up and are throwing off of it, there is much less friction so you
don't have to kick as much. There is no way to overpower the clay on this
type of wheel, so you have to cooperate with the clay more.
The Korean wheels are hard to find in the States. I bought one
from Jasper Bond, who bought it from the monks at St. John who make them for
Richard Breshnehand. I also know several people who built their own,
including Willem Gebben and Randy Johnson. Here in Mashiko, a local
carpenter makes them for about 90000 yen (about $800 dollars American.)
Most go for at least twice that amount, so this local maker is a good deal
One thing to keep in mind is that it is much easier to go from a
kickwheel to an electric than it is to go from electric to a kickwheel.
The two people that started after me at the workshop had only thrown on
electric wheels before coming to study at the present workshop. It took
them a longer time to get used to the Korean kickwheels.
--
Lee Love
Nanai , Mashiko-machi ,Tochigi-ken 321-4106 JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
Voice Mail and Faxes (a USA number): (303) 256-0374
Help E.T. Phone Earth: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
Liz Gowen on wed 23 aug 00
Luis, welcome to the list . I learned on a kick wheel and currently
own a motorized kick wheel and a shimpo electric. The latter I
bought so I could throw standing up, back problems, a little tougher
to manage with a kick wheel since the fly wheel is in the way. I
still prefer my motorized kick wheel, feel more in tune with the
piece on fine detail things where perhaps I have not learned to
finesse the shimpo. The kick wheel will take up more space and with
a good flywheel they are heavy. Mine is a Dinac ( don't know that
they make them any more.) nice wheel comes apart to move, easy to
reassemble.
The difference I see while throwing is;
get the kick wheel going take your foot off the petal or wheel and
concentrate on throwing. I love that the weight of the heavy
flywheel keeps it going, smoothly, quietly, for so long without
applying more kicking or the motor again It will slow down as you
throw but often when you want it to if you develop a rhythm with
pots you are throwing. I also much prefer it for trimming pots, and
generally do without the motor.
With a straight electric wheel, you put your foot on the petal
to get the speed but to slow it down you must back off on the petal
. The sailboat vs. the motor boat.
If I could only have one it would still be my motorized kick
wheel.
Good luck.
Liz Gowen
> I'm new to this list. I am an architect/artist that has a passion
for
> bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai
receptacles. I
> have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
> kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel
that the
> kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were
getting your
> first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Luis Fontanills
> Miami, Florida USA
>
>
> FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
>
>
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>
vince pitelka on wed 23 aug 00
> > I'm new to this list. I am an architect/artist that has a passion for
> > bonsai, and this has led me to explore making my own bonsai receptacles.
I
> > have researched many types of pottery wheels (electric powered and
> > kickwheels). A friend told me that most experienced potters feel that
the
> > kickwheel is best for control. Is this accurate? If you were getting
your
> > first wheel would you get a kickwheel?
Although many bonsai containers are handbuilt, Many others are thrown, and
the wheel also offers great possibilities for thrown or thrown-and-altered
bonsai containers, or for throwing components for handbuilt bonsai
containers.
It is true that many traditional potters believe that the kick wheel offers
more control, and that the kick wheel is the ideal wheel for the beginning
student. I disagree. There is enough to concentrate on when learning to
throw, without having to deal with providing the physical momentum.
Electric wheels are wonderful, and as long as you discipline yourself from
the start to avoid excessive speed, you will learn more quickly on a power
wheel.
Regarding learning to throw so that you can make bonsai containers, I cannot
remember his name, but in Wendell, Massachusetts there is a very well known
bonsai gardener who wrote the definitive book on collecting bonsai plants
from nature. It is a wonderful book. He tells about all the places you can
find distressed plants which make wonderful bonsai plants (with proper
treatment and training after collecting). This man learned to throw
entirely in order to make his own bonsai containers, and has become very
expert at it, and in the process built his own gas high-fire kiln and
learned to formulate all his own glazes.
Good luck to you!
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Luis Fontanills on thu 24 aug 00
I am ever so grateful for all the interesting and detailed comments;
reconsideration of my initial assessment is in order. I should try to find
an establishment with several types of wheels and test them out for a
personal suitability. I have already begun my search for community colleges
in my area, and will look for other possibilities.
Many types of bonsai pots are thrown and/or modified from thrown pots. I
have a very good book on 'Hand-built Ceramics' by Jane Waller from the
complete potter series and have built a few pots to date using these non-
wheel methods.
If you are interested in two excellent American bonsai potters see these
links:
http://www.infoblvd.net/hagedorn/
http://www.win.bright.net/~rayner/
I welcome any additional comments and thank you in advance. This is a great
group!
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