Les Crimp on wed 23 aug 00
Lauren -
How can this be:
1. A "learning" experience when this institution blew up their work through
total mismanagement of firing a kiln. Surely they must check from time to
time and be able to read a pyrometer.
2. How can it be called a learning experience when an institution gives out
clay for a ^10 firing that must have been earthenware clay, to melt over
others works and shelves, etc.
$750.00 US for a weeks disappointment is pretty steep. In Canada that
$750.00 US would represent $1113.75 CDN. Too much !!!
Les Crimp in Nanoose Bay, B.C. (Vancouver Island)
Larry Phillips on wed 23 aug 00
mudslingers@ATT.NET wrote:
The explosions can be attributed to fate, but the clay mixup is clearly
the fault of the workshop folks.
If I had been in charge of the workshop, you would have had a discount
on a future one. I have been in the business of customer service for
most of my life, and I always bend over backwards to make the customer
happy, regardless of whose fault it is. So far, it has always paid in
the long run, sometimes in monetary value, but always in the way I feel
about myself.
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
mudslingers@ATT.NET on wed 23 aug 00
Hi Folks,
I recently attended a 6 day workshop at Peters Valley
in NJ, and there were some problems. I'd like to know
what you think of what happened (I'll try to make it
short!)...
The total cost could easily rise to over $750
(tuition, room & board, fees, supplies, gas, etc).
The Problems :
1. During candling to dry things out, the temp went
too high and a majority of our pieces were blown up.
2. Some students who bought clay were mistakenly given
earthenware for a cone 10 firing. The earthenware melted
down flat, ruining those pieces and others that they
melted onto.
The class was apologized to, but no further compensation
was offered. Although most students did get to take
pieces home--and sharing in the communal experience is
enjoyable--many of us were discouraged and disappointed
all the same. As another student commented: most of us
were already knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
of disasters. So I sent an email to the Valley, making
the suggestion that a discount on a course next season
be offered to the 12 students of the class. I thought
it would accomplish several things: it would be a show
of good faith to those who support the Valley; it might
encourage disappointed students to return; and if not,
it wouldn't cost the Valley anything more -- Not a whole
lot to be lost and pretty good business sense, I thought!
The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley
members and it was decided that no compensation was
"necessary" because "these experiences happen and
learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
to the learning process".
I'm a self-taugtht potter, and learning the hard way
goes with the territory in MY OWN environment (good
thing there's CLAYART!!). I don't think students should
expect to PAY for that type of learning experience. I
know I will return there for more classes, with or
without a discount, but it does change my view of what
I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!
I would be very interested in hearing what other
workshop goers and workshop providers think.
Thanks for any comments!
Lauren
(maybe i should be going to anderson ranch!)
mudslingers@att.net
http://mudslingers.home.att.net
Kevin Wiberg on wed 23 aug 00
(Lauren, this is not intended as a lecture--just offering a general opinion
about workshops and craft shools.)
I've been fortunate to have had nothing but great experiences with workshops at
both Haystack and Penland. There were some small problems that caused
temporary disappointments but nothing that sounded as bad as Lauren's
experience at Peters Valley. But even to the small problems we experienced, we
were reminded, and we reminded each other, that we were there for the learning
and not for the making.
This reminds me of another friend who went to a craft school sculpture session
that was to be inwardly focused and linked to nature. As soon as people heard
that the salt kiln would be fired many students switched in to production mode
of functional work. They abandoned the intention of the class. I mention this
because I think that some of us in the ceramic arts and crafts field have some
issues and expectations that may entice us from the basic intent of craft
school education. These schools are not there for our temporary production
needs. They are there for communal education, support, and inspiration.
Most craft schools are running on pretty tight budgets to begin with and I
guess that refunds or discounts could cause larger financial problems. The
problems Lauren identified sound like they were human error, but I guess my
expectations are pretty high when I go to a school and pay a lot of money. I
would offer that kiln "explosions" do happen and that is a risk of the
process. Selling students the wrong clay is just plain bad business (I think
all people whose work was ruined should have been refunded the cost of the
clay, at least.) Finally, it was not appropriate for Peters Valley to suggest
that human error (on their part) is educational--"important to the learning
process." How about a little public relations common sense?
Wishing you all wonderful workshop experiences,
Kevin in Vermont
(Where the two ripe tomatoes in my garden were just delicious!)
Kevin Wiberg
Evaluation Coordinator
University of Vermont Extension
601 Main St.
Burlington, VT 05401-3439
voice: (802) 656-8467
fax: (802) 656-8642
kevin.wiberg@uvm.edu
JODO96@AOL.COM on wed 23 aug 00
Lauren
I am sorry to hear about your experience. I do feel that some level of
compensation could have been made to maintain good faith. Yes, bad things
happen to all of us, in our own studios.
Was someone watching the firing during the candling, were they keeping
track of the rate of climb, I assume this was a single fire. The matter of
buying clay that was low fire, I take it that it was purchased at Peter's
Valley for this specific workshop, if so that falls into their responsibility
of providing you with the correct materials for your class.
Dorothy
Manakin-Sabot, Va.
Earl Brunner on wed 23 aug 00
I can sympathize with your experience, but here comes the
*HOWEVER*
You really can't factor in anything other than the tuition
for the workshop, although the tendency is to do so. Some of
those costs are different for every participant. A couple of
things could have gone wrong with the bisque that blew up.
One, they might have been rushing things because workshops
are short. Two, if the presenters were guest presenters they
may have not been familiar with the kiln (although you would
expect local staff to oversee that part).
I personally think a refund on part might be more reasonable
than a future discount. Next year could have new presenters
or different people and how could you penalize them for this
times goofs?
Even though there were disappointments, Peters Valley
incurred all of the same expenses whether there were
accidents or not. I know that there are some people that
went to a workshop in Florida a while ago that were really
disappointed. The presenter flew in from the west coast
area and his flight got canceled, his luggage with the slide
presentation got lost by the airline and it was a total
disaster. The guild or organization that put on the
workshop, still had to pay him for his airfare, etc. But a
lot of people went home upset and disappointed.
mudslingers@ATT.NET wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I recently attended a 6 day workshop at Peters Valley
> in NJ, and there were some problems. I'd like to know
> what you think of what happened (I'll try to make it
> short!)...
>
> The total cost could easily rise to over $750
> (tuition, room & board, fees, supplies, gas, etc).
>
> The Problems :
> 1. During candling to dry things out, the temp went
> too high and a majority of our pieces were blown up.
>
> 2. Some students who bought clay were mistakenly given
> earthenware for a cone 10 firing. The earthenware melted
> down flat, ruining those pieces and others that they
> melted onto.
>
> The class was apologized to, but no further compensation
> was offered. Although most students did get to take
> pieces home--and sharing in the communal experience is
> enjoyable--many of us were discouraged and disappointed
> all the same. As another student commented: most of us
> were already knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
> of disasters. So I sent an email to the Valley, making
> the suggestion that a discount on a course next season
> be offered to the 12 students of the class. I thought
> it would accomplish several things: it would be a show
> of good faith to those who support the Valley; it might
> encourage disappointed students to return; and if not,
> it wouldn't cost the Valley anything more -- Not a whole
> lot to be lost and pretty good business sense, I thought!
>
> The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley
> members and it was decided that no compensation was
> "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
> learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
> to the learning process".
>
> I'm a self-taugtht potter, and learning the hard way
> goes with the territory in MY OWN environment (good
> thing there's CLAYART!!). I don't think students should
> expect to PAY for that type of learning experience. I
> know I will return there for more classes, with or
> without a discount, but it does change my view of what
> I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!
>
> I would be very interested in hearing what other
> workshop goers and workshop providers think.
>
> Thanks for any comments!
> Lauren
> (maybe i should be going to anderson ranch!)
> mudslingers@att.net
> http://mudslingers.home.att.net
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Diane G. Echlin on wed 23 aug 00
Dear Lauren,
Personally, I think the people there at the Valley have a piss poor attitude about
this situation. If it were me, I would write a very strongly worded letter to the
powers that be in the organization, ( the board of directors, CEO, whomever is at
the very tippy top) and send a copy to the op-ed section of your local paper. (I
think actual letters are taken more seriously than emails for some reason) To give
earthenware to students who are expecting stoneware is ludicrous! To fail to
monitor the candling is just plain inconsiderate. As with any service you pay for,
you should expect a minimum of "service." Obviously the people who replied that,
"no compensation was "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important to the learning process" have
their heads somewhere other than where they should be. I would be furious with
that reply. I AM furious with that reply, and it didn't even happen to me! You
paid your money to avail yourself of the expertise of the teachers running the
workshop. You did not get the expertise that you paid for. Is there any way to
contact the other participants to urge them to write letters also? Further, I
would inform the center that until some form of compensation is made to all the
students of this workshop, some gesture of good will, you will no longer support
them, and you will tell people very honestly and openly why you no longer support
them. These places must be reminded that patrons such as yourself are the
lifeblood of their organization, and without you, they will fade into oblivion.
Hmm. That was a rant! Sorry!
Diane in CT
mudslingers@ATT.NET wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I recently attended a 6 day workshop at Peters Valley
> in NJ, and there were some problems. I'd like to know
> what you think of what happened (I'll try to make it
> short!)...
>
> The total cost could easily rise to over $750
> (tuition, room & board, fees, supplies, gas, etc).
>
> The Problems :
> 1. During candling to dry things out, the temp went
> too high and a majority of our pieces were blown up.
>
> 2. Some students who bought clay were mistakenly given
> earthenware for a cone 10 firing. The earthenware melted
> down flat, ruining those pieces and others that they
> melted onto.
>
> The class was apologized to, but no further compensation
> was offered. Although most students did get to take
> pieces home--and sharing in the communal experience is
> enjoyable--many of us were discouraged and disappointed
> all the same. As another student commented: most of us
> were already knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
> of disasters. So I sent an email to the Valley, making
> the suggestion that a discount on a course next season
> be offered to the 12 students of the class. I thought
> it would accomplish several things: it would be a show
> of good faith to those who support the Valley; it might
> encourage disappointed students to return; and if not,
> it wouldn't cost the Valley anything more -- Not a whole
> lot to be lost and pretty good business sense, I thought!
>
> The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley
> members and it was decided that no compensation was
> "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
> learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
> to the learning process".
>
> I'm a self-taugtht potter, and learning the hard way
> goes with the territory in MY OWN environment (good
> thing there's CLAYART!!). I don't think students should
> expect to PAY for that type of learning experience. I
> know I will return there for more classes, with or
> without a discount, but it does change my view of what
> I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!
>
> I would be very interested in hearing what other
> workshop goers and workshop providers think.
>
> Thanks for any comments!
> Lauren
> (maybe i should be going to anderson ranch!)
> mudslingers@att.net
> http://mudslingers.home.att.net
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Dannon Rhudy on wed 23 aug 00
>
>The Problems :
>1. During candling... majority of our pieces were blown up.
>
>2. Some students ....were mistakenly given
>earthenware ....melted...
>The class was apologized to, but no further compensation
>was offered.....
--------------------------------------
Disasters could happen anyplace (though the earthenware
misshap is certainly just that- disaster!). People run
workshops, and people do indeed make mistakes. Still,
those you present are on a pretty high order of magnitude.
It does seem to me that the place could compensate those
attending by offering a discount - but they see it otherwise.
Best thing to do is just let it go. Apparently you have
found workshops there in the past to be up to expectations.
If such carelessness were chronic, you'd be attending elsewhere,
no doubt.
It will be a great relief to you to just let go of it. And
you can add those misadventures to your repertoire of potters
stories. Everyone needs lots of those. Some of the best
and most laughter-filled times I've had have involved potters
sitting around kiln & cooler telling about "disasters I have
known". There've been some pretty good ones right here on the
list.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
GURUSHAKTI@AOL.COM on wed 23 aug 00
Their attitude of failing to take responsibility for their ineptitude reeks
of arrogance and lack of consideration for those who paid good money and put
in a lot of time and effort in expectation of getting something to show for
it all.
These people would lose in small claims court. They are responsible and
participants have a right to expect, under the circumstances, to be dealt
with in a professional and impeccable manner. I'm aghast at the position they
have taken on this. Personally, I would have written a much stronger letter
and taken them to task, even if it meant taking to it small claims court --
not because of the money but the principle of it all. Maybe if they were made
to look at this deeper, it would prevent future participants from having such
a disappointing experience and would teach them a well needed lesson, it
seems.
Regards,
June
Wendy Neilson on wed 23 aug 00
Dear Diane in CT..
Hold on a minute ........ is a workshop meant to be about product or
process?
If you want product, stay home and work.
If you want process attend workshops and take the mishaps as 'learning
experiences'. Bet you won't make the same mistakes in your studio! No, don't
expect compensation. There were accidents. They happen.
I recently spent two weeks at MISSA (Vancouver Island ) in a fabulous Tom
Coleman workshop. The gas kiln loaded to the hilt had a 'mishap'. Probably
to save costs (as what private school or institution isn't doing that?) a
not high enough fire brick was used to support the bottom shelf. You guessed
it. The pots and shelves collapsed in to the middle creating 'fused
sculptural pieces'. Students as well as Tom lost some stunning work. There
were other 'errors'... trivial in the overall scope of things. Just more
learning experiences.
Before there are too many moans about this mis-adventure it should be noted
that Tom, his tech and a few generous students bent over backwards to make
sure there were a couple of subsequent successful firings.... which there
were....
The long and short of this story is try turning a negative to a positive.
MISSA holds an instructors auction with the proceeds going to MISSA.........
One of the fused mishaps became a delightful sculptural piece commanding the
biggest dollars at the evening gala. All the students in that class as well
as all the other clay classes on campus are now fully aware of the do's and
don'ts of kiln stacking. It was a cheap lesson for most of us.
Have a good one......... Wendy Neilson
> Dear Lauren,
> Personally, I think the people there at the Valley have a piss poor
attitude about
> this situation. If it were me, I would write a very strongly worded
letter to the
> powers that be in the organization, ( the board of directors, CEO,
whomever is at
> the very tippy top) and send a copy to the op-ed section of your local
paper. (I
> think actual letters are taken more seriously than emails for some reason)
To give
> earthenware to students who are expecting stoneware is ludicrous! To fail
to
> monitor the candling is just plain inconsiderate. As with any service you
pay for,
> you should expect a minimum of "service." Obviously the people who
replied that,
> "no compensation was "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
> learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important to the learning
process" have
> their heads somewhere other than where they should be. I would be furious
with
> that reply. I AM furious with that reply, and it didn't even happen to
me! You
> paid your money to avail yourself of the expertise of the teachers running
the
> workshop. You did not get the expertise that you paid for. Is there any
way to
> contact the other participants to urge them to write letters also?
Further, I
> would inform the center that until some form of compensation is made to
all the
> students of this workshop, some gesture of good will, you will no longer
support
> them, and you will tell people very honestly and openly why you no longer
support
> them. These places must be reminded that patrons such as yourself are the
> lifeblood of their organization, and without you, they will fade into
oblivion.
> Hmm. That was a rant! Sorry!
> Diane in CT
>
Leo C. Peck on wed 23 aug 00
Wendy, that was well said. I know Tom gives a wonderful workshop. This
whole clay business is all about trial and error and error and error. You
are only expanding your education. Leo
Leo Peck
Peck Tile, Pottery & Sculpture
Napa, CA
www.pecktile.com
leo@pecktile.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Neilson"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Workshop Disasters
> Dear Diane in CT..
> Hold on a minute ........ is a workshop meant to be about product or
> process?
> If you want product, stay home and work.
> If you want process attend workshops and take the mishaps as 'learning
> experiences'. Bet you won't make the same mistakes in your studio! No,
don't
> expect compensation. There were accidents. They happen.
>
> I recently spent two weeks at MISSA (Vancouver Island ) in a fabulous Tom
> Coleman workshop. The gas kiln loaded to the hilt had a 'mishap'. Probably
> to save costs (as what private school or institution isn't doing that?) a
> not high enough fire brick was used to support the bottom shelf. You
guessed
> it. The pots and shelves collapsed in to the middle creating 'fused
> sculptural pieces'. Students as well as Tom lost some stunning work. There
> were other 'errors'... trivial in the overall scope of things. Just more
> learning experiences.
>
> Before there are too many moans about this mis-adventure it should be
noted
> that Tom, his tech and a few generous students bent over backwards to make
> sure there were a couple of subsequent successful firings.... which there
> were....
>
> The long and short of this story is try turning a negative to a positive.
> MISSA holds an instructors auction with the proceeds going to
MISSA.........
> One of the fused mishaps became a delightful sculptural piece commanding
the
> biggest dollars at the evening gala. All the students in that class as
well
> as all the other clay classes on campus are now fully aware of the do's
and
> don'ts of kiln stacking. It was a cheap lesson for most of us.
>
> Have a good one......... Wendy Neilson
>
> > Dear Lauren,
> > Personally, I think the people there at the Valley have a piss poor
> attitude about
> > this situation. If it were me, I would write a very strongly worded
> letter to the
> > powers that be in the organization, ( the board of directors, CEO,
> whomever is at
> > the very tippy top) and send a copy to the op-ed section of your local
> paper. (I
> > think actual letters are taken more seriously than emails for some
reason)
> To give
> > earthenware to students who are expecting stoneware is ludicrous! To
fail
> to
> > monitor the candling is just plain inconsiderate. As with any service
you
> pay for,
> > you should expect a minimum of "service." Obviously the people who
> replied that,
> > "no compensation was "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
> > learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important to the learning
> process" have
> > their heads somewhere other than where they should be. I would be
furious
> with
> > that reply. I AM furious with that reply, and it didn't even happen to
> me! You
> > paid your money to avail yourself of the expertise of the teachers
running
> the
> > workshop. You did not get the expertise that you paid for. Is there
any
> way to
> > contact the other participants to urge them to write letters also?
> Further, I
> > would inform the center that until some form of compensation is made to
> all the
> > students of this workshop, some gesture of good will, you will no longer
> support
> > them, and you will tell people very honestly and openly why you no
longer
> support
> > them. These places must be reminded that patrons such as yourself are
the
> > lifeblood of their organization, and without you, they will fade into
> oblivion.
> > Hmm. That was a rant! Sorry!
> > Diane in CT
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Diane G. Echlin on wed 23 aug 00
Wendy Neilson wrote:
> Dear Diane in CT..
> Hold on a minute ........ is a workshop meant to be about product or
> process?
> If you want product, stay home and work.
> If you want process attend workshops and take the mishaps as 'learning
> experiences'. Bet you won't make the same mistakes in your studio! No, don't
> expect compensation. There were accidents. They happen.
>
This is about both process AND product.
I absolutely concede that mistakes happen, errors in judgement are par for the
course in any learning atmosphere, however, I have to wonder what one learns from
these two specific events? Does a potter really need to pay for a 6 day workshop
to learn to monitor a candling to avoid work blowing up unnecessarily? It's one
thing when I rush my pieces through the drying process in my own studio, but quite
another to have it happen in a "learning" atmosphere. And in reality, I would be
less inclined to make an issue out of that mishap if it were isolated.
On the issue of the earthenware/stoneware clay confusion, that is plain
incompetance, and frankly, I'm disgusted by it. As I mentioned in my earlier
(emotionally charged) post, if I pay to learn from a presenter with more experience
and knowledge, at a facility that promotes learning of this craft, I expect basic
competance. These participants did not get basic competance, they got shoddy
administration of a class.
I ran a service-based business for several years, and the most important thing I
learned was to take care of those who take care of you---your customers. The
arrogance of the response to Lauren's email is beyond my comprehension. Whomever
issued this response seems to have lost sight of the fact that this center offers a
product, which is the experience of the workshop. The product in this case was
marred by gross incompetance. Perhaps it was a singular event, perhaps it is just
one in a long line of mishaps. At any rate, if it were my arts center, I would be
sure to offer some sort of compensation or remuneration to the participants as a
gesture of good will and faith.
As for my advice re: write a letter to the higher ups and the paper, I stand by my
opinion. Further, if I got no results from the letter, I would most likely drop
the matter. Certainly nothing is gained by harping on it.
Peace.
Diane in CT
Craig Martell on wed 23 aug 00
Hi:
I really hate the "part of the process" excuse. People take workshops to
learn how to do stuff right, not see the worst possible scenario happen and
be told that it's "part of the process". Most of us know that already and
don't need to pay someone else to point that out. Perhaps the folks in
charge of the workshop at Peter's Valley should take some classes
themselves and learn how to do it right before attempting to teach others.
later, Craig Martell in Oregon
Paul Taylor on wed 23 aug 00
Dear Lauren
I am amazed at your story. We are told here by our media that Americans
have no trouble complaining. I guess from your post that they are as
reticent to complain as we are here.
The things that happened on your course were not failures in equipment
which all potters live with but failures in the judgment of the tutors for
not informing the students of the mistakes they were making . That approach
reasonable enough on a three year course but not in a weeks holiday
instruction.
The standard of pottery instruction at a good many educational
establishments needs a lot to de desired. And may who have studied under
these inadequate regimes either never realize or are too proud to admit they
were badly taught.
My own ceramic education was hopeless but since it was thirty years ago I
was too stoned to have appreciated a good course - even if it was offered.
It was only during my first job that I fully realized I had been taught
little. If I had gone streight back into the education system I could still
be quiet happily leading students astray . A living tradition of mediocrity
and misinformation.
I have taught in "further education" and I am amazed not so much by the
ignorance but by the lack of reflection when confronted by the obvious. I
would not be surprised if there are tutors out there who still think that
bloating is caused by over firing the glaze kiln or air in the clay, even
when it has been going on intermittently for years and after a better
explanation has been given to them.
I have listened to one of the so called leading tutors in this country
trash this list, because some of the replies he got to his question he did
not agree with. Even though I agreed that the answers he received were not
of the caliber he expected. I know they all could not have been that
shallow. I expect pride and snobbery played the most part in his judgment.
The older you get the worse you get.
There is good reason for this. Change means you are starting again or
feeling like it. When you meet middle age you are frightened that one day
you will not have the time to start again.
I have a special sympathy with this, because after recent contact with
some Japanese potters,I feel that I have only been potting two weeks. I am
frightened that I will not be able to make the changes their vision has
given me.
Even so; get some of your money back. You were ripped off by people who
refuse to recognize their failure least they fail .
-- Regards Paul Taylor.
Westport Pottery, Liscarney, County Mayo. Ireland.
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery/
> From: mudslingers@ATT.NET
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:11:47 +0000
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Workshop Disasters
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I recently attended a 6 day workshop at Peters Valley
> in NJ, and there were some problems. I'd like to know
> what you think of what happened (I'll try to make it
> short!)...
>
> The total cost could easily rise to over $750
> (tuition, room & board, fees, supplies, gas, etc).
>
> The Problems :
> 1. During candling to dry things out, the temp went
> too high and a majority of our pieces were blown up.
>
> 2. Some students who bought clay were mistakenly given
> earthenware for a cone 10 firing. The earthenware melted
> down flat, ruining those pieces and others that they
> melted onto.
>
> The class was apologized to, but no further compensation
> was offered. Although most students did get to take
> pieces home--and sharing in the communal experience is
> enjoyable--many of us were discouraged and disappointed
> all the same. As another student commented: most of us
> were already knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
> of disasters. So I sent an email to the Valley, making
> the suggestion that a discount on a course next season
> be offered to the 12 students of the class. I thought
> it would accomplish several things: it would be a show
> of good faith to those who support the Valley; it might
> encourage disappointed students to return; and if not,
> it wouldn't cost the Valley anything more -- Not a whole
> lot to be lost and pretty good business sense, I thought!
>
> The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley
> members and it was decided that no compensation was
> "necessary" because "these experiences happen and
> learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
> to the learning process".
>
> I'm a self-taugtht potter, and learning the hard way
> goes with the territory in MY OWN environment (good
> thing there's CLAYART!!). I don't think students should
> expect to PAY for that type of learning experience. I
> know I will return there for more classes, with or
> without a discount, but it does change my view of what
> I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!
>
> I would be very interested in hearing what other
> workshop goers and workshop providers think.
>
> Thanks for any comments!
> Lauren
> (maybe i should be going to anderson ranch!)
> mudslingers@att.net
> http://mudslingers.home.att.net
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Frank Gaydos on wed 23 aug 00
Subject: Workshop Disasters
> Hi Folks,
>
> I recently attended a 6 day workshop at Peters Valley
> in NJ, and there were some problems. I'd like to know
> what you think of what happened
> short!)..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Lauren,
I took the Pre Anagama workshop right after your workshop at the Valley.
I really go for the food and since I have nothing to do between meals I sign
up for the classes. :>)
I actually saw one of the earthenware 'cow chips' on the kiln shelf, and
thought to
myself, 'uh oh, not good'!!
I understand your disappointment in the accident and know you can
appreciate
the fact that 'Stuff' happens sometimes.
I do, but I think the staff could have handled it with a bit more tact than
what you report.
I was going to suggest to the staff that the workshops be extended at least
a day even
before you wrote, seems they put an awful strain on themselves to get the
work dry and
fired in a short amount of time.
Even though I've been going to Peters Valley for six of the last eight
years and never had a
bad experience I will print out the comments here on clayart and hand
deliver them when I
travel there this Sunday to pick up my Anagama work.
Now, I've been to workshops where I did not like one thing I made, BUT, I
did learn the
technique being presented and improved upon it at my studio where things are
less frantic.
Frank Gaydos
vince pitelka on wed 23 aug 00
> I would be very interested in hearing what other
> workshop goers and workshop providers think.
Lauren -
We have had our share of rough moments in our summer workshops, especially
during the two summers when we were hovering on the edge of the precipice.
But we have never experienced anything like what you mention. I am appalled
that Peters Valley was unwilling to grant a discount to the attendees who's
work was ruined because of someone else's incompetence. As far as I am
concerned, that is not acceptable in a professionally-run workshop venue.
And you should not have had to ask for such compensation. They should have
offered it.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on wed 23 aug 00
In a message dated 08/23/2000 8:27:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mudslingers@ATT.NET writes:
<< I would be very interested in hearing what other
workshop goers and workshop providers think.
Thanks for any comments!
Lauren >>
Lauren, I not only agree with you but am surprised at the lack of business
sense being shown. Such decisions are often motivated by a money factor
without recognizing that generosity reaps a big return.
Susan
Tommy Humphries on wed 23 aug 00
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Neilson"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Workshop Disasters
> Dear Diane in CT..
> Hold on a minute ........ is a workshop meant to be about product or
> process?
> If you want product, stay home and work.
> If you want process attend workshops and take the mishaps as 'learning
> experiences'. Bet you won't make the same mistakes in your studio! No,
don't
> expect compensation. There were accidents. They happen.
Bull...
I have no Idea what the workshop was about, but if the work of the
participants is ruined by the ineptness of the ones giving the workshop,
then there is no lessons learned except not to attend any more of their
workshops.
If the workshops were about surface textures and decoration, then maybe, the
experience of actually working on the items was enough, but if the workshop
included glazes and color treatments then the workshop was a total loss, and
the students should be given their money back.
How can you learn from your pots if they are in a puddle on the shelf?
Learning experience?? Not on your life...what was learned? "maybe that pot
with the blue glaze over the carbon trap looked great...but I will never
know" what was learned by that?
True you pay your money for the brain food, not the pots you make, but you
should expect to take away a feeling of accomplishment and not
disappointment. I am sure none of the paying participants went to learn
only how *not* to do it!
Tommy Humphries,
"`You know, it's at times like this, that I really wish I'd listened to what
my mother told me when I was young.'
`Why, what did she tell you?'
`I don't know, I didn't listen.'"
(Douglas Adams)
Ray Aldridge on thu 24 aug 00
At 09:26 PM 8/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>The explosions can be attributed to fate,
Not in my opinion. This is also incompetence. Someone rushed things-- the
only times I've ever had explosions were when I was in too much of a hurry,
and I knew whose fault it was. Mine.
Ray
http://goodpots.com/
Janet Kaiser on thu 24 aug 00
IMHO Paul, Vince & Co. are right in the
condemnation of this very poor course and even
poorer response to justifiable complaint. It is
very arrogant of the workshop to believe that
they have no need to make good in some way, even
if the complaint came a little late.
It is always best to complain on the spot, and
in the case of a full class, get as many as
possible to support you. If you were served a
bad meal, you would have to make your complaint
whilst still sat at the table, and not later.
Classes and workshops are similar. It weakens
your case if you leave it until everyone has
gone home.
But sadly like a bad restaurant, they have a few
million other prospective customers. At least
that is the attitude which prevails in the UK...
"Plenty more where they came from" so there is
no need to address customer satisfaction. (Like
Paul, I thought things worked differently in the
US).
They would do well to know, that they should
reckon with the loss of at least twenty
prospective clients for every one they lose. The
word soon goes round and it is very difficult to
regain credibility once lost.
They may believe that there is "no such thing as
negative publicity", but in my experience, one
bad report takes a lot of living down and bad
stories are always repeated more often than the
good.
What surprises me most, is that the original
poster was contemplating another course at this
place! Nice, friendly and well meaning people
they may be, but surely dilettante in their
attitude to taking people's fees and yet
short-changing them all along the way.
I would hate to spend another week worrying if
the same thing (or worse) was going to happen
again. It is one thing to be ripped off, but
going back again for more? That is pure
masochism in my book!
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> I am amazed at your story. We are told here
by our media that Americans
> have no trouble complaining. I guess from your
post that they are as
> reticent to complain as we are here.
>
> The things that happened on your course
were not failures in equipment
> which all potters live with but failures in
the judgment of the tutors for
> not informing the students of the mistakes
they were making . That approach
> reasonable enough on a three year course but
not in a weeks holiday
> instruction.
>snip<
>
> -- Regards Paul Taylor.
> Westport Pottery, Liscarney, County Mayo.
Ireland.
> http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery/
Carrie or Peter Jacobson on fri 25 aug 00
I ran a community studio for a while, and before I got there, the students
used a cone 6 clay and a low-fire earthenware. When you were throwing with
them, you could tell them apart by color, texture, etc. At bisque stage, it
was next to impossible. I got rid of the earthenware.
I am surprised that someone at Peter's Valley, student or teacher, didn't
recognize the earthenware for what it was, by color, by feel, by plasticity?
How disappointing!
Think of this. If you'd gone there, and the same stuff had happened, and the
school had done The Right Thing, you would have come back to the list and
related *that* story. What a different set of responses you'd have gotten!
What a different set of responses the school would have gotten!
Next time the phrase "Peter's Valley" crosses the mind of most ClayArters,
it will bring with it the little reminder that there was a problem. Had the
school done right, the mention of their name would have brought just the
opposite.
Carrie Jacobson
Best potter in Bolster's Mills, Maine
Only potter in Bolster's Mills, Maine
Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 25 aug 00
Janet you have no right to assert such a scathing post about a place
you have never been. It is just plain wrong. You obviously didn't
even read the original post. The writer never said she had a bad
time. In fact, she stated her experience was pleasant overall and she
plans to go back there.
Having been to Peters Valley for both workshops and anagama firings, I
can assure you that NO ONE there is arrogant or out to steal anyone's
money. No one there thinks of the students as suckers who's money is
there for the taking. I have been there and know them and you don't.
Generalisations like this are dangerous and immature. Because 1
person felt badly that means we should all boycott this place? Get
real. Should I have asked for a refund because there was a psycho in
my class, who I ultimately shared a dorm with? Maybe they should do
psychological testing before accepting students. I should sue!!! =20
>I would hate to spend another week worrying if
>the same thing (or worse) was going to happen
>again. It is one thing to be ripped off, but
>going back again for more? That is pure
>masochism in my book!
Then I am a true masochist, because I am looking forward to a terrific
labour day weekend at Peter's Valley. It will be my second workshop
there this summer, not including the anagama firing I have loads of
work in. But instead of spending my 5 days worrying about what will
go wrong, I will be responsible for checking my clay myself (takes
about 2 seconds to say "may I see the box?") and enjoy the
instruction, the company of others, the lush surroundings, maybe get a
bear sighting or two, enjoy the amazing food, and laugh to myself
about the negative people who think I'm a mashochist. =20
Maybe i need medication. Or is the glass half full?
Scsclay@AOL.COM on fri 25 aug 00
In a message dated 8/25/00 8:06:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
carriej@MEGALINK.NET writes:
<< Next time the phrase "Peter's Valley" crosses the mind of most ClayArters,
it will bring with it the little reminder that there was a problem. Had the
school done right, the mention of their name would have brought just the
opposite. >>
I have to disagree with my friend Carrie, or at least take myself out of the
group
of "most Clayarters". When the name Peter's Valley crosses MY mind today,
even after all of this discussion, I bring up only positive memories of a
workshop
there and would still go back in a flash if something that interested me
worked
out in my schedule, unlike this summer when I had hoped to take the Lynda
Benglis workshop but had family obligations. I echo Lois's sentiments.
Susan Schultz
Stonington, Ct.
Janet Kaiser on sun 27 aug 00
May I take my cake and eat it?
Or do I have to eat humble pie?
As a matter of fact, taking comments or mere
words out of context is my idea of being
"reactionary". The original is below. I believe
I was making fair points in what I considered a
helpful way. Oddments like addressing issues
there and then and not some time later, seeing
if a number supported the complaint, etc. etc.
It was not me who felt ripped off... Obviously
some in the class felt that way, otherwise this
would not have been the subject of so much
heated debate.
It may not appear like it to everyone, but I
always do try to take care. I certainly was not
slating anybody. I did not even repeat the name
of the place, so it would not turn up in a
search. I was not being personal... Mel sees to
it those posts do not get circulated...
I usually try to put myself into other people's
shoes... In this case, $750 to learn that a
workshop can get it wrong. Not me or my fellow
students mistake/s, but theirs alone. Then no
compensation or attempt to mollify my gripes...
That was naughty and not good for the reputation
of what is probably a perfectly OK place run by
lovely people.
A great shame that the system was so
incompetent. Does that sound better?
But really, "Holier than thou"? Me? I think not!
I certainly did not go off at the deep end, but
I think I would have done if it had been me at
the receiving end of this breakdown in the
system.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
> And Janet, you take the cake. Never having met
the good folks at the Valley
> you ascribe the following:
> "arrogant ,dilettante ,rip off artists, and
students that go there are
> masochists." Pa lease. Give us a break!
> This holier than thou attitude has gotten old,
fast.
> Clayart is a great resource, but sometimes you
guys go off the deep end.
IMHO Paul, Vince & Co. are right in the
condemnation of this very poor course and even
poorer response to justifiable complaint. It is
very arrogant of the workshop to believe that
they have no need to make good in some way, even
if the complaint came a little late.
It is always best to complain on the spot, and
in the case of a full class, get as many as
possible to support you. If you were served a
bad meal, you would have to make your complaint
whilst still sat at the table, and not later.
Classes and workshops are similar. It weakens
your case if you leave it until everyone has
gone home.
But sadly like a bad restaurant, they have a few
million other prospective customers. At least
that is the attitude which prevails in the UK...
"Plenty more where they came from" so there is
no need to address customer satisfaction. (Like
Paul, I thought things worked differently in the
US).
They would do well to know, that they should
reckon with the loss of at least twenty
prospective clients for every one they lose. The
word soon goes round and it is very difficult to
regain credibility once lost.
They may believe that there is "no such thing as
negative publicity", but in my experience, one
bad report takes a lot of living down and bad
stories are always repeated more often than the
good.
What surprises me most, is that the original
poster was contemplating another course at this
place! Nice, friendly and well meaning people
they may be, but surely dilettante in their
attitude to taking people's fees and yet
short-changing them all along the way.
I would hate to spend another week worrying if
the same thing (or worse) was going to happen
again. It is one thing to be ripped off, but
going back again for more? That is pure
masochism in my book!
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