Paul Lewing on fri 25 aug 00
I find this whole discussion a bit odd. It occurs to me that the people
who were upset that their work was ruined had gone to the workshop with
the wrong expectations and the wrong attitudes.
My idea of why you take a workshop in the first place is to learn some
new information or techniques that you can then take back to your own
studio and adapt to your work. You don't make stuff while you're there
to have great work to take home. You make stuff while you're there so
you and the instructor can make sure you're understanding what you need
to understand. Interesting stuff to take home is a bonus. It's like
those stacks of oil paintings you make in art school and then paint over
two or three times. They're exercises, not finished paintings.
It sounds to me like the people in this workshop got what they paid for
and the school had no obligation to compensate them for anything.
(This, of course is not addressing their attitude at all). They saw the
instructor's techniques, got to pick his brain, and even learned a very
important lesson that wasn't part of the curriculum. And that is: PAY
ATTENTION! Ceramics is complicated enough when you do pay attention.
It gets downright impossible if you don't watch it every minute.
I've made and glazed a ton of stuff as demos in workshops. I take my
own tiles with me, I send the schools my recipes, and I color them
myself. I don't often get to see the fired results, but every time I
do, the results are gag-me ugly. Seconds, at best. That's not the
point. The point was that everybody got to see application techniques
and learn about glaze chemistry. They're supposed to go home and try
something similar (but not identical) with their own glazes.
Anyway, I don't think anybody has a right to be disappointed if what
they make in a workshop doesn't work. So what? The valuable stuff is
in your head and in your notebook.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Christopher Anton on fri 25 aug 00
> The writer never said she had a bad time. In fact, she stated her
experience was pleasant overall and she
>plans to go back there.
Actually, the exact quote is 'I don't think students should expect to PAY
for that type of learning experience. I
know I will return there for more classes, with or without a discount, but
it does change my view of what
I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!'
>Because 1 person felt badly that means we should all boycott this place?
The writer never stated that she was the only person who had misgivings.
She also does not state that no one else mentioned
it to the staff of Peters Valley. In fact, she does state "--many of us
were discouraged and disappointed
all the same. As another student commented: most of us were already
knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
of disasters. "
>Having been to Peters Valley for both workshops and anagama firings, I can
assure you that NO ONE there is arrogant or >out to steal anyone's money.
I admit that Joyce's use of the words "rip off" is a bit strong, but rip
offs need not be intentional either. However, the response as described by
Lauren ('The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley members and it
was decided that no compensation was "necessary" because "these experiences
happen and learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
to the learning process" ') shows at the very least extreme lack of concern
for the feelings of their attendees, and can very easily be interpreted as
arrogance.
The facts of the case are that the staff of Peters Valley made two major
errors resulting in bad feelings for several of twelve attendees, and that
they did not care enough about those attendees feelings to offer any form of
restitution. While they apologized, an apology which does nothing to
correct the wrong done is merely words. Their words said they were sorry,
their actions said they did not truly care about the feelings of the
workshop attendees.
Do I believe in a boycott? No. But I do believe in individuals making up
their own minds. Lauren stated that her total expense for attending the
workshop was around $750. If I am going to spend even half that much to
attend a workshop, I want to feel confident that if a serious mistake
occurs, that the sponsors will feel enough genuine concern to at least offer
token recompense. Peters Valley failed to do that. Do I think you are
wrong for your loyalty? Of course not. At the same time, I do not feel
that I, nor anyone else, is wrong for voting with our feet.
- Chris Anton
Christopher Anton on sat 26 aug 00
Correction. I mistakenly remembered "rip off" being attributed to Joyce.
'Twas NOT she! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa maxima!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Anton"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Workshop Disasters (Long...again)
> > The writer never said she had a bad time. In fact, she stated her
> experience was pleasant overall and she
> >plans to go back there.
>
> Actually, the exact quote is 'I don't think students should expect to PAY
> for that type of learning experience. I
> know I will return there for more classes, with or without a discount, but
> it does change my view of what
> I used to consider a "little slice of heaven"!'
>
> >Because 1 person felt badly that means we should all boycott this place?
>
> The writer never stated that she was the only person who had misgivings.
> She also does not state that no one else mentioned
> it to the staff of Peters Valley. In fact, she does state "--many of us
> were discouraged and disappointed
> all the same. As another student commented: most of us were already
> knowledgeable enough to prevent these kinds
> of disasters. "
>
> >Having been to Peters Valley for both workshops and anagama firings, I
can
> assure you that NO ONE there is arrogant or >out to steal anyone's money.
>
> I admit that Joyce's use of the words "rip off" is a bit strong, but rip
> offs need not be intentional either. However, the response as described
by
> Lauren ('The events and my suggestion were reviewed by Valley members and
it
> was decided that no compensation was "necessary" because "these
experiences
> happen and learning how to deal with [them] is [also] important
> to the learning process" ') shows at the very least extreme lack of
concern
> for the feelings of their attendees, and can very easily be interpreted as
> arrogance.
>
> The facts of the case are that the staff of Peters Valley made two major
> errors resulting in bad feelings for several of twelve attendees, and that
> they did not care enough about those attendees feelings to offer any form
of
> restitution. While they apologized, an apology which does nothing to
> correct the wrong done is merely words. Their words said they were sorry,
> their actions said they did not truly care about the feelings of the
> workshop attendees.
>
> Do I believe in a boycott? No. But I do believe in individuals making up
> their own minds. Lauren stated that her total expense for attending the
> workshop was around $750. If I am going to spend even half that much to
> attend a workshop, I want to feel confident that if a serious mistake
> occurs, that the sponsors will feel enough genuine concern to at least
offer
> token recompense. Peters Valley failed to do that. Do I think you are
> wrong for your loyalty? Of course not. At the same time, I do not feel
> that I, nor anyone else, is wrong for voting with our feet.
>
> - Chris Anton
>
>
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>
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>
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>
Wendy Neilson on sat 26 aug 00
Thank goodness.. well said. Can this thread be put to rest??
Cheers!
Wendy Neilson
www.pigpottery.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lewing"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Workshop Disasters (Long...again)
> I find this whole discussion a bit odd. It occurs to me that the people
> who were upset that their work was ruined had gone to the workshop with
> the wrong expectations and the wrong attitudes.
> My idea of why you take a workshop in the first place is to learn some
> new information or techniques that you can then take back to your own
> studio and adapt to your work. You don't make stuff while you're there
> to have great work to take home. You make stuff while you're there so
> you and the instructor can make sure you're understanding what you need
> to understand. Interesting stuff to take home is a bonus. It's like
> those stacks of oil paintings you make in art school and then paint over
> two or three times. They're exercises, not finished paintings.
>
> It sounds to me like the people in this workshop got what they paid for
> and the school had no obligation to compensate them for anything.
> (This, of course is not addressing their attitude at all). They saw the
> instructor's techniques, got to pick his brain, and even learned a very
> important lesson that wasn't part of the curriculum. And that is: PAY
> ATTENTION! Ceramics is complicated enough when you do pay attention.
> It gets downright impossible if you don't watch it every minute.
>
> I've made and glazed a ton of stuff as demos in workshops. I take my
> own tiles with me, I send the schools my recipes, and I color them
> myself. I don't often get to see the fired results, but every time I
> do, the results are gag-me ugly. Seconds, at best. That's not the
> point. The point was that everybody got to see application techniques
> and learn about glaze chemistry. They're supposed to go home and try
> something similar (but not identical) with their own glazes.
>
> Anyway, I don't think anybody has a right to be disappointed if what
> they make in a workshop doesn't work. So what? The valuable stuff is
> in your head and in your notebook.
>
> Paul Lewing, Seattle
>
>
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 27 aug 00
Bravo! Thank you for your eloquence, wisdom, and voice of reason.
>I find this whole discussion a bit odd. It occurs to me that the people
>who were upset that their work was ruined had gone to the workshop with
>the wrong expectations and the wrong attitudes.
>My idea of why you take a workshop in the first place is to learn some
>new information or techniques that you can then take back to your own
>studio and adapt to your work. You don't make stuff while you're there
>to have great work to take home. You make stuff while you're there so
>you and the instructor can make sure you're understanding what you need
>to understand. Interesting stuff to take home is a bonus. It's like
>those stacks of oil paintings you make in art school and then paint over
>two or three times. They're exercises, not finished paintings.
>
(rest of post snipped)
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