iandol on fri 8 sep 00
Dear Anji,
Grade class teachers are notorious for using photocopiers. It=92s a form =
of institutionalised idleness. A lot easier than getting your own nose =
to the grindstone and nutting out some stuff which is relevant to the =
kids in their own setting.
Some teachers get inspection copies provided free, with strings. They =
are required to return those books or buy a class set. Perhaps school =
administrators allow photocopying because then they do not have to =
expend capital on providing class sets.
Creating and designing teaching material seems to be a forgotten art, =
but that is how some of the best text books came into being. Writing =
good instructional material is very hard, editing and re-reading =
manuscripts is sheer graft. Illustrations take time to design and =
create. Takes a long time and it all has to be proof read before it is =
used. So those who can write get a bit narked when they hear of people =
not paying their dues by buying text books, magazines, journals or =
whatever. No subscriptions or royalties means no income payed for the =
work which is being used. Teachers who use massive amounts of =
photocopying get an income from what they do as teachers. They should be =
willing to share their earnings with people who provide materials for =
them use. Which is why I like to hear that people are buying =
subscriptions to CM and PMI. I am fairly rewarded for material of mine =
which they publish and I feel good about the copyright rules. If you =
cannot afford to buy the original, for a student to make one copy of an =
article for study seems fair. To copy a small portion of an otherwise =
unobtainable books for study or enlightenment seems fair. To run off a =
class set of even one page is against the rules. To copy the whole of an =
is illegal under the guidelines of the Berne convention.
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
Diane G. Echlin on sat 9 sep 00
Ivor, I am loathe to blame the teachers for the ridiculous amount of phot=
ocopying that goes on in our school systems, and I am even loathe to blam=
e the administrations. In my area (Northeast USA) and specifically in my=
town, every year the school budget comes up for a vote. Peolple who no =
longer have children in the system (the majority) routinely vote down the=
budget with the excuse that they shouldn't have to pay for the education=
of other people's children. It seems much more acceptable to vote for $=
18,000 to replace the lights on the town green because they do not fit in=
with the historical character of the area than to vote for that same amo=
unt of money for text books or upgraded computers. As long as we (societ=
y) do not value education and keeping it current, teachers will have to p=
hotocopy those awful pages and churn our children through the system that=
removes the concept of thought and effort from every aspect of education=
=2E
Just my take on it. Flame away!
Diane in CT
iandol wrote:
> Dear Anji,
>
> Grade class teachers are notorious for using photocopiers. It=92s a for=
m of institutionalised idleness. A lot easier than getting your own nose =
to the grindstone and nutting out some stuff which is relevant to the kid=
s in their own setting.
>
> Some teachers get inspection copies provided free, with strings. They a=
re required to return those books or buy a class set. Perhaps school admi=
nistrators allow photocopying because then they do not have to expend cap=
ital on providing class sets.
>
> Creating and designing teaching material seems to be a forgotten art, b=
ut that is how some of the best text books came into being. Writing good =
instructional material is very hard, editing and re-reading manuscripts i=
s sheer graft. Illustrations take time to design and create. Takes a long=
time and it all has to be proof read before it is used. So those who can=
write get a bit narked when they hear of people not paying their dues by=
buying text books, magazines, journals or whatever. No subscriptions or =
royalties means no income payed for the work which is being used. Teacher=
s who use massive amounts of photocopying get an income from what they do=
as teachers. They should be willing to share their earnings with people =
who provide materials for them use. Which is why I like to hear that peop=
le are buying subscriptions to CM and PMI. I am fairly rewarded for mater=
ial of mine which they publish and I feel good about the copyright rules.=
If you cannot afford to buy the original, for a
> student to make one copy of an article for study seems fair. To copy a =
small portion of an otherwise unobtainable books for study or enlightenme=
nt seems fair. To run off a class set of even one page is against the rul=
es. To copy the whole of an is illegal under the guidelin=
es of the Berne convention.
>
> Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________=
_______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pcl=
ink.com.
Earl Brunner on sat 9 sep 00
What Ivor says here is essentially correct, in the US as
well.
I would just add that the textbook industry is big and
represents a lot of money. It seems to have taken on a life
of it's own. It is more complex here in the US than in many
countries. First you have multiple companies all vying for
the same market, So there is competition. A single copy of a
text can cost $50-60 dollars, or more. But the district only
buys them every few years. I think our text committee only
adopts a text for a 6 year period at which point it is then
considered obsolete. The textbook people want income during
the "off" years so they create all of these consumable
materials that are written into the program. =20
You don't really buy a text anymore, it is more of a (they
have all sorts of terms for it) "learning system" or
"teaching program". You have to buy the consumed components
every year. There is always less money than we need to buy
all the components, so they end up only buying part of it.=20
Often we are even short teacher's manuals (you can share).=20
Some components are designed to be run off and copied, some
are not. Frequently there is little in or on the material to
indicate which can or cannot be copied.
I would like to defend grade class teachers from part of
Ivor's message.
People shouldn't be too critical of grade teachers for the
apparent over use of photocopiers. True there are some who
seem to do it to excess, we have a pair of team teachers at
our school whom we had dubbed the "ditto queens" (the new
teachers don't know what a ditto is, but that is a different
story). Grade school teachers in our school district at
least have to teach, reading, writing, math, science, social
studies, we now do technology beginning with 6 year olds,
students are expected to be able to learn all this stuff and
not just do a "report" anymore, but to be able to put
together a multimedia presentation. They teach all of these
subjects every day to 25-35 students. My wife had an
administrator that insisted that her lesson plans be so
complete that to quote"if it takes you two or three pages to
write out this lesson, then so-be-it". That was one subject
for one day. My wife is a very good teacher and has been
teaching for 14 years. The administrator had one year in
administration and was an ass. My son teaches grade school
in a different district, he is required to teach p.e., art,
and music as well. We at least have specialist for that.
Try it some time.
iandol wrote:
>=20
> Dear Anji,
>=20
> Grade class teachers are notorious for using photocopiers. It=92s a for=
m of institutionalised idleness. A lot easier than getting your own nose =
to the grindstone and nutting out some stuff which is relevant to the kid=
s in their own setting.
>=20
> Some teachers get inspection copies provided free, with strings. They a=
re required to return those books or buy a class set. Perhaps school admi=
nistrators allow photocopying because then they do not have to expend cap=
ital on providing class sets.
>=20
> Creating and designing teaching material seems to be a forgotten art, b=
ut that is how some of the best text books came into being. Writing good =
instructional material is very hard, editing and re-reading manuscripts i=
s sheer graft. Illustrations take time to design and create. Takes a long=
time and it all has to be proof read before it is used. So those who can=
write get a bit narked when they hear of people not paying their dues by=
buying text books, magazines, journals or whatever. No subscriptions or =
royalties means no income payed for the work which is being used. Teacher=
s who use massive amounts of photocopying get an income from what they do=
as teachers. They should be willing to share their earnings with people =
who provide materials for them use. Which is why I like to hear that peop=
le are buying subscriptions to CM and PMI. I am fairly rewarded for mater=
ial of mine which they publish and I feel good about the copyright rules.=
If you cannot afford to buy the original, for a
> student to make one copy of an article for study seems fair. To copy a =
small portion of an otherwise unobtainable books for study or enlightenme=
nt seems fair. To run off a class set of even one page is against the rul=
es. To copy the whole of an is illegal under the guidelin=
es of the Berne convention.
>=20
> Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
>=20
> _______________________________________________________________________=
_______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pcl=
ink.com.
--=20
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
GORMO1@AOL.COM on sun 10 sep 00
In a message dated 9/10/00 10:06:01 PM, dechlin@CONNIX.COM writes:
<< Recipes or lists of ingredients cannot be copyrighted. >>
Well, YOU SAY IF I MAKE UP A RECIPES PUT IN CLAYTIMES AND YOU TOOK THE
SAME RECIPES AND PUT IN CERAMIC MONTHLY UNDER YOUR NAME IT WOULD BE all right.
Well, LETS TRY IT! LETS SEE WHAT THE COURTS WOULD SAY! INGREDIENTS CANNOT BUT
% CAN!BUT YOU SEE I WOULD NOT CARE IF YOU DID IT AS LONG AS IT HELP OTHER
POTTERS
GORMO I POTTERY
POTTER : JIM GORMAN
500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
PHONE 540-953-0673
E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
GORMO1@AOL.COM on sun 10 sep 00
PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
others!
one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
printed!
why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
helping
her/his class! (CHILDREN)
and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you took
from
a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that ok
because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call it?
GORMO I POTTERY
POTTER : JIM GORMAN
500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
PHONE 540-953-0673
E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
Earl Brunner on sun 10 sep 00
The person who brought this issue up in the first case
wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
entitled to a piece of the pie.
We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
it was intended to be used.
For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
pressure up.
GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
> others!
> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
> printed!
> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
> helping
> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you took
> from
> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that ok
> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call it?
>
> GORMO I POTTERY
> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
> PHONE 540-953-0673
> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Diane G. Echlin on sun 10 sep 00
Recipes or lists of ingredients cannot be copyrighted.
GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
> others!
> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
> printed!
> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
> helping
> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you took
> from
> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that ok
> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call it?
>
> GORMO I POTTERY
> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
> PHONE 540-953-0673
> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Diane Mead on sun 10 sep 00
My manhattan lawyer niece (don't think bad--she's a good kid) specializes in
intellectual property and thinks as jim does below--she even intimates she'd
defend anybody like that b/c of her stance like Jim.
But this is a controversial deal right now, esp since the Internet is still
in diapers...(we hope) and the College ARt Association has been fighting on
it among themselves for way way too long. I've been in on some of that. Some
are on Jim's side (below) and some are right on the opposite side of the
fence. Quite an interesting controversy and I am inclined to ride out this
wave for the time being. having taught for as many decades as I have, it is
tough for me to make a call. I don't feel as tho i can offer and solution to
it based on pure logic. The guy who writes the thing owns the thing. The
teacher who works his/her ass off for the good of the students ought to have
some good fresh material. I am neutral. Switzerland.
Nobody send me their bank accounts.
>From: GORMO1@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:48:54 EDT
>
>PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
>others!
>one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
>printed!
>why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
>helping
>her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you
>took
>from
> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that
>ok
>because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call
>it?
>
>
>GORMO I POTTERY
>POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>PHONE 540-953-0673
>E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
Diane Mead on sun 10 sep 00
I was being Swiss netural (cheese) in former recent post.
Now I have a little idea. Please, no hitting (I am still Swiss)
Idea--anyone writes a glaze formula or article or review or other thing--at
the end rather than the @copyright symbol we think up the symbol that means
"I'd like everybody to use this. It is good. Please use it, on me and I do
now want any form of remuneration ever. Go ahead."
The symbol could be a little picture of Jimmy Carter, or a picture of Johnny
Appleseed, or something like that. Then the teachers feel comfortable, the
guys who want remuneration can identify themselves with the other @ symbol,
and the guys who want to give it away for free are identified for all
posterity.
Feel free to shoot any holes in this, it is made of polyurethane. Just no
hitting. I bruise easily (kidding of course)
>From: GORMO1@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:48:54 EDT
>
>PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
>others!
>one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
>printed!
>why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
>helping
>her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you
>took
>from
> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that
>ok
>because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call
>it?
>
>
>GORMO I POTTERY
>POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>PHONE 540-953-0673
>E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
John Hesselberth on sun 10 sep 00
Hmmm. Well I guess you're entitled to your point of view. Did you ever
think about the individual authors in those magazines though. They are
the basic copyright owners in most cases. They are just craftsmen or
artists like yourself. The magazine usually only has one time
publication rights. It is the authors who, oftentimes, are the ones
getting ripped off by people with your attitude. Same with books. The
author gets 10-15% of the sticker price of every book sold. If people
copy the author gets ripped off along with the book publisher. It's
really no different than someone copying one of your best selling pieces
of pottery by sending it to China for mass production and then reselling
it for a tiny fraction of what you sell it for.
Recipes, of course, are explicitly not protected by copyright laws. John
GORMO1@aol.com wrote:
>PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
>others!
>one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
>printed!
>why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
>helping
>her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you took
>from
> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is that ok
>because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call it?
>
>
>GORMO I POTTERY
>POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>PHONE 540-953-0673
>E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>____
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
John Hesselberth
Frog Pond Pottery
P.O. Box 88
Pocopson, PA 19366 USA
EMail: john@frogpondpottery.com web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com
"It is, perhaps, still necessary to say that the very best glazes cannot
conceal badly shaped pots..." David Green, Pottery Glazes
Diane Mead on mon 11 sep 00
The following (quoted post) is so incredibly neat that I can't imagine
anyone ever wanting to call the concept plagiarism. (Of course I have gone
wack for fractals in the past few years--fantastic new book -- mostly
photos--I got at Xmas proves they are fascinating to no end!)
I feel Very comfortable with artists paying homage to what has gone before
by taking what they need--I guess my mind always assumes that the artist
will use a new matrix that will completely alter the way we ever thought
about the prior art.
I think hal's following concept surely falls into the category I think of as
greatly creative! And what a great argument for artists losing their fear of
using some of the ideas of others in new and fascinating ways. There
probably would never had been a Renaissance had those guys back then been
afraid of appropriation dilemmas!
Milton and fractals! wow
>From: hal mc whinnie
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:50:31 -0000
>
>i have become involved in appropriation of art for new purposes, for
>example
>i am curretnly illustrating paradise lost with fractals and i have not only
>selected from the milton text but have edited the language
>the result is what i condisder a new work of art.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Diane Mead
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>
>
> >Hal and I feel confused on the issue for obvious reasons. Mine is
>currently
> >the opposite of his.
> >
> >I am beholden to absolutely no other direct influence in my art right
>now.
> >
> >I do not feel that I am completely UNinfluenced (no such word--that's
>okay)
> >by art that has gone before.
> >The reference is in my DNA, not on my canvas....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: hal mc whinnie
> >>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:21:42 -0000
> >>
> >>I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
> >>
> >>there are two fundamental rights which are:
> >>
> >>1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either
>physical
> >>or
> >>by copying and adaptation.
> >>2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before
>him
> >>to
> >>use as he desires.
> >>
> >>these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each
> >>other.
> >>
> >>This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
> >>
> >>In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no
>living
> >>artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work
>without
> >>persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Earl Brunner
> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >>
> >>
> >> >The person who brought this issue up in the first case
> >> >wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
> >> >a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
> >> >wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
> >> >
> >> >We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
> >> >are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
> >> >the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
> >> >protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
> >> >hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
> >> >when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
> >> >friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
> >> >environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
> >> >that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
> >> >entitled to a piece of the pie.
> >> >
> >> >We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
> >> >Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
> >> >the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
> >> >weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
> >> >recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
> >> >it was intended to be used.
> >> >
> >> >For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
> >> >pressure up.
> >> >
> >> >GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> >> >> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault
>of
> >> >> others!
> >> >> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is
>even
> >> >> printed!
> >> >> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as
>it
> >>is
> >> >> helping
> >> >> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> >> >> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that
>you
> >>took
> >> >> from
> >> >> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or
>is
> >>that ok
> >> >> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you
> >>call
> >>it?
> >> >>
> >> >> GORMO I POTTERY
> >> >> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
> >> >> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
> >> >> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
> >> >> PHONE 540-953-0673
> >> >> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>__________________________________________________________________________
>__
> >>__
> >> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >> >>
> >> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
>subscription
> >> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >> >>
> >> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >>melpots@pclink.com.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Earl Brunner
> >> >http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> >> >mailto:bruec@anv.net
> >> >
> >>
> >___________________________________________________________________________
> >>___
> >> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >> >
> >> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >> >
> >> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >>melpots@pclink.com.
> >>
> >>__________________________________________________________________________
>____
> >>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >>
> >>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >>
> >>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >>melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
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> >http://profiles.msn.com.
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>___
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> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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hal mc whinnie on mon 11 sep 00
I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
there are two fundamental rights which are:
1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either physical or
by copying and adaptation.
2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before him to
use as he desires.
these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each other.
This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no living
artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work without
persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Brunner
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>The person who brought this issue up in the first case
>wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
>a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
>wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
>
>We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
>are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
>the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
>protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
>hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
>when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
>friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
>environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
>that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
>entitled to a piece of the pie.
>
>We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
>Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
>the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
>weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
>recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
>it was intended to be used.
>
>For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
>pressure up.
>
>GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
>> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
>> others!
>> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
>> printed!
>> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it is
>> helping
>> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
>> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you
took
>> from
>> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is
that ok
>> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you call
it?
>>
>> GORMO I POTTERY
>> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>> PHONE 540-953-0673
>> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>>
>>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>--
>Earl Brunner
>http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
>mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Diane G. Echlin on mon 11 sep 00
GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 9/10/00 10:06:01 PM, dechlin@CONNIX.COM writes:
>
> << Recipes or lists of ingredients cannot be copyrighted. >>
>
> Well, YOU SAY IF I MAKE UP A RECIPES PUT IN CLAYTIMES AND YOU TOOK THE
> SAME RECIPES AND PUT IN CERAMIC MONTHLY UNDER YOUR NAME IT WOULD BE all right.
> Well, LETS TRY IT! LETS SEE WHAT THE COURTS WOULD SAY! INGREDIENTS CANNOT BUT
> % CAN!BUT YOU SEE I WOULD NOT CARE IF YOU DID IT AS LONG AS IT HELP OTHER
> POTTERS
Why are you shouting? I simply stated a point of law. You need to calm down. I'm
not at all suggesting lifting a glaze recipe verbatim from one source and
publishing it under another's name is right. I'm simply stating the clear and
simple fact that recipes (and a list of ingredients with percentages is in fact a
recipe) cannot be copyrighted. Look it up.
Diane in CT
Anji Henderson on mon 11 sep 00
<wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".>>
Exactly right.. It wasn't what I wanted to hear .. And
some suggestions off list were just plain shocking..
Even I, with silica on the brain could tell that some
of the suggestions were just plain wrong....
Well, I thank everyone for the thoughts... Basically
my situation boils down to -- If I ask the teacher
which book it was and where she got it, I can get that
book and copy the worksheet... NOW, this does _NOT_
include every book!! The book that the science teacher
had was one of those ones FOR teachers to COPY, it
says so on every page, BUT it has to be the purchaser,
which I am not for this specific instance.. And, I am
not going to buy a science work book to get one page
to enlighten in a ceramics class... Sounds silly to
me.....
So, this problem is over and I thank yall' again .. On
to finding the next problem : ) Hahaha Like I have to
FIND it -- it will come to me I am soooooo sure!!!
Anji
--- Earl Brunner wrote:
> The person who brought this issue up in the first
> case
> wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was
> asking
> a question. Just because the answer may not be what
> she
> wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
>
> We go through this over and over and over. Just
> because you
> are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc
> to break
> the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders
> society and
> protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big
> of a
> hurry to run out there and break the law. There are
> times
> when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on
> to a
> friend is different then passing things on in a
> teaching
> environment.
=====
Good art does not have to match your sofa!!
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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Diane Mead on mon 11 sep 00
Hal and I feel confused on the issue for obvious reasons. Mine is currently
the opposite of his.
I am beholden to absolutely no other direct influence in my art right now.
I do not feel that I am completely UNinfluenced (no such word--that's okay)
by art that has gone before.
The reference is in my DNA, not on my canvas....
>From: hal mc whinnie
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:21:42 -0000
>
>I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
>
>there are two fundamental rights which are:
>
>1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either physical
>or
>by copying and adaptation.
>2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before him
>to
>use as he desires.
>
>these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each
>other.
>
>This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
>
>In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no living
>artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work without
>persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Earl Brunner
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>
>
> >The person who brought this issue up in the first case
> >wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
> >a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
> >wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
> >
> >We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
> >are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
> >the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
> >protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
> >hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
> >when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
> >friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
> >environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
> >that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
> >entitled to a piece of the pie.
> >
> >We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
> >Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
> >the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
> >weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
> >recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
> >it was intended to be used.
> >
> >For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
> >pressure up.
> >
> >GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
> >>
> >> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> >> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault of
> >> others!
> >> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
> >> printed!
> >> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it
>is
> >> helping
> >> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> >> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that you
>took
> >> from
> >> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is
>that ok
> >> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you
>call
>it?
> >>
> >> GORMO I POTTERY
> >> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
> >> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
> >> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
> >> PHONE 540-953-0673
> >> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
> >>
> >>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >>
> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >>
> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >--
> >Earl Brunner
> >http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> >mailto:bruec@anv.net
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________________
>___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
hal mc whinnie on mon 11 sep 00
i have become involved in appropriation of art for new purposes, for example
i am curretnly illustrating paradise lost with fractals and i have not only
selected from the milton text but have edited the language
the result is what i condisder a new work of art.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Mead
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Hal and I feel confused on the issue for obvious reasons. Mine is currently
>the opposite of his.
>
>I am beholden to absolutely no other direct influence in my art right now.
>
>I do not feel that I am completely UNinfluenced (no such word--that's okay)
>by art that has gone before.
>The reference is in my DNA, not on my canvas....
>
>
>
>
>>From: hal mc whinnie
>>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:21:42 -0000
>>
>>I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
>>
>>there are two fundamental rights which are:
>>
>>1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either physical
>>or
>>by copying and adaptation.
>>2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before him
>>to
>>use as he desires.
>>
>>these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each
>>other.
>>
>>This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
>>
>>In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no
living
>>artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work without
>>persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Earl Brunner
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
>>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>>
>>
>> >The person who brought this issue up in the first case
>> >wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
>> >a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
>> >wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
>> >
>> >We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
>> >are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
>> >the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
>> >protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
>> >hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
>> >when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
>> >friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
>> >environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
>> >that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
>> >entitled to a piece of the pie.
>> >
>> >We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
>> >Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
>> >the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
>> >weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
>> >recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
>> >it was intended to be used.
>> >
>> >For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
>> >pressure up.
>> >
>> >GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
>> >>
>> >> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
>> >> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at fault
of
>> >> others!
>> >> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is even
>> >> printed!
>> >> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as it
>>is
>> >> helping
>> >> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
>> >> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that
you
>>took
>> >> from
>> >> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or is
>>that ok
>> >> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to you
>>call
>>it?
>> >>
>> >> GORMO I POTTERY
>> >> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>> >> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>> >> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>> >> PHONE 540-953-0673
>> >> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>> >>
>> >>
>>__________________________________________________________________________
__
>>__
>> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >>
>> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >>
>> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Earl Brunner
>> >http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
>> >mailto:bruec@anv.net
>> >
>>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>>___
>> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >
>> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >
>> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________________
____
>>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
hal mc whinnie on tue 12 sep 00
thanks for the good words
i believe that the tension produced by the process of adaption of works from
the past for new purposes is central to creativityin the arts.
If i were a dancer i would now be sued if i would adapt any of martha
graham's movements to a new dance.
i do not use the work of living artists becasue i do not want to get into an
argument about theirrights and intents but what about after their death?
in the case of martha grapham one could make the argument that modern dance
will be significantly curtailled so long as the graham estate maitains its
rights and the head of that estate seems to be thinking more of himself then
the suppiosed rights of graham.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Mead
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>The following (quoted post) is so incredibly neat that I can't imagine
>anyone ever wanting to call the concept plagiarism. (Of course I have gone
>wack for fractals in the past few years--fantastic new book -- mostly
>photos--I got at Xmas proves they are fascinating to no end!)
>
>I feel Very comfortable with artists paying homage to what has gone before
>by taking what they need--I guess my mind always assumes that the artist
>will use a new matrix that will completely alter the way we ever thought
>about the prior art.
>
>I think hal's following concept surely falls into the category I think of
as
>greatly creative! And what a great argument for artists losing their fear
of
>using some of the ideas of others in new and fascinating ways. There
>probably would never had been a Renaissance had those guys back then been
>afraid of appropriation dilemmas!
>Milton and fractals! wow
>
>
>>From: hal mc whinnie
>>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:50:31 -0000
>>
>>i have become involved in appropriation of art for new purposes, for
>>example
>>i am curretnly illustrating paradise lost with fractals and i have not
only
>>selected from the milton text but have edited the language
>>the result is what i condisder a new work of art.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Diane Mead
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:01 PM
>>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>>
>>
>> >Hal and I feel confused on the issue for obvious reasons. Mine is
>>currently
>> >the opposite of his.
>> >
>> >I am beholden to absolutely no other direct influence in my art right
>>now.
>> >
>> >I do not feel that I am completely UNinfluenced (no such word--that's
>>okay)
>> >by art that has gone before.
>> >The reference is in my DNA, not on my canvas....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: hal mc whinnie
>> >>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:21:42 -0000
>> >>
>> >>I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
>> >>
>> >>there are two fundamental rights which are:
>> >>
>> >>1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either
>>physical
>> >>or
>> >>by copying and adaptation.
>> >>2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before
>>him
>> >>to
>> >>use as he desires.
>> >>
>> >>these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each
>> >>other.
>> >>
>> >>This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
>> >>
>> >>In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no
>>living
>> >>artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work
>>without
>> >>persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Earl Brunner
>> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> >>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >The person who brought this issue up in the first case
>> >> >wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
>> >> >a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
>> >> >wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
>> >> >
>> >> >We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
>> >> >are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
>> >> >the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
>> >> >protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
>> >> >hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
>> >> >when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
>> >> >friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
>> >> >environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
>> >> >that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
>> >> >entitled to a piece of the pie.
>> >> >
>> >> >We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
>> >> >Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
>> >> >the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
>> >> >weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
>> >> >recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
>> >> >it was intended to be used.
>> >> >
>> >> >For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
>> >> >pressure up.
>> >> >
>> >> >GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
>> >> >> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at
fault
>>of
>> >> >> others!
>> >> >> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is
>>even
>> >> >> printed!
>> >> >> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long as
>>it
>> >>is
>> >> >> helping
>> >> >> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
>> >> >> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart that
>>you
>> >>took
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission or
>>is
>> >>that ok
>> >> >> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to
you
>> >>call
>> >>it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> GORMO I POTTERY
>> >> >> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
>> >> >> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
>> >> >> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
>> >> >> PHONE 540-953-0673
>> >> >> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________________
>>__
>> >>__
>> >> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
>>subscription
>> >> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> >>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Earl Brunner
>> >> >http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
>> >> >mailto:bruec@anv.net
>> >> >
>> >>
>>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>> >>___
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>> >> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >> >
>> >> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> >>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >>
>>
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>> >>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >
>>
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____
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Diane Mead on tue 12 sep 00
Is there an element of jealousy here?
If someone takes one of my landscapes (and I am still living) and
appropriates parts and makes something incredible, but amazingly NOT like
what I intended or made
My inkling is to REJOICE!!!! Wow they loved my work
Wow they got my gist and ran with it
Why is this bad IF IN FACT THEY REINTERPRETED MY INTENTIONS AS ANOTHER
IDEA????
I think it is wonderful. It is how Renaissance artists learned from (and
excelled beyond ) their masters
Sadly lawyers (and you good lawyers out there--ignore this for you--I am
talking about the mean spirited ones) make some people think that
appropriation is always wrong....I cannot believe it is!
>From: hal mc whinnie
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:33:18 -0000
>
>thanks for the good words
>
>i believe that the tension produced by the process of adaption of works
>from
>the past for new purposes is central to creativityin the arts.
>
>If i were a dancer i would now be sued if i would adapt any of martha
>graham's movements to a new dance.
>
>i do not use the work of living artists becasue i do not want to get into
>an
>argument about theirrights and intents but what about after their death?
>
>in the case of martha grapham one could make the argument that modern dance
>will be significantly curtailled so long as the graham estate maitains its
>rights and the head of that estate seems to be thinking more of himself
>then
>the suppiosed rights of graham.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Diane Mead
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Date: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:09 AM
>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
>
>
> >The following (quoted post) is so incredibly neat that I can't imagine
> >anyone ever wanting to call the concept plagiarism. (Of course I have
>gone
> >wack for fractals in the past few years--fantastic new book -- mostly
> >photos--I got at Xmas proves they are fascinating to no end!)
> >
> >I feel Very comfortable with artists paying homage to what has gone
>before
> >by taking what they need--I guess my mind always assumes that the artist
> >will use a new matrix that will completely alter the way we ever thought
> >about the prior art.
> >
> >I think hal's following concept surely falls into the category I think of
>as
> >greatly creative! And what a great argument for artists losing their fear
>of
> >using some of the ideas of others in new and fascinating ways. There
> >probably would never had been a Renaissance had those guys back then been
> >afraid of appropriation dilemmas!
> >Milton and fractals! wow
> >
> >
> >>From: hal mc whinnie
> >>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:50:31 -0000
> >>
> >>i have become involved in appropriation of art for new purposes, for
> >>example
> >>i am curretnly illustrating paradise lost with fractals and i have not
>only
> >>selected from the milton text but have edited the language
> >>the result is what i condisder a new work of art.
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Diane Mead
> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:01 PM
> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >>
> >>
> >> >Hal and I feel confused on the issue for obvious reasons. Mine is
> >>currently
> >> >the opposite of his.
> >> >
> >> >I am beholden to absolutely no other direct influence in my art right
> >>now.
> >> >
> >> >I do not feel that I am completely UNinfluenced (no such word--that's
> >>okay)
> >> >by art that has gone before.
> >> >The reference is in my DNA, not on my canvas....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>From: hal mc whinnie
> >> >>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> >> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:21:42 -0000
> >> >>
> >> >>I have evolved a very different point of view towards artists rights.
> >> >>
> >> >>there are two fundamental rights which are:
> >> >>
> >> >>1] the right of a work iof art not to be abused in anyway either
> >>physical
> >> >>or
> >> >>by copying and adaptation.
> >> >>2] the right of an artists to have access to all that has gone before
> >>him
> >> >>to
> >> >>use as he desires.
> >> >>
> >> >>these two rights are absolute and of course are in conflict with each
> >> >>other.
> >> >>
> >> >>This produces a tension which is part of the creative process.
> >> >>
> >> >>In my recent work I have employed the images of Ingres and others{no
> >>living
> >> >>artists} and I fell that i have a right to adopt those in my work
> >>without
> >> >>persmission from the owner who is not the artist.
> >> >>
> >> >>-----Original Message-----
> >> >>From: Earl Brunner
> >> >>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >> >>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 2:24 AM
> >> >>Subject: Re: Re; Plagiarism/Copyright ???????
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >The person who brought this issue up in the first case
> >> >> >wasn't looking for or getting fault finding, she was asking
> >> >> >a question. Just because the answer may not be what she
> >> >> >wanted to hear doesn't constitute "fault finding".
> >> >> >
> >> >> >We go through this over and over and over. Just because you
> >> >> >are "helping" someone does not give you carte blanc to break
> >> >> >the law. We are talking LAW here. LAW orders society and
> >> >> >protects the rights of citizens. Don't be in too big of a
> >> >> >hurry to run out there and break the law. There are times
> >> >> >when you want it on YOUR side. Passing something on to a
> >> >> >friend is different then passing things on in a teaching
> >> >> >environment. When teaching you are usually being paid. Read
> >> >> >that profiting from the work of someone else. They may be
> >> >> >entitled to a piece of the pie.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >We have also talked about the glaze recipe issue before.
> >> >> >Most recipes in books are what amounts to public domain in
> >> >> >the first place. Most of the ones in books I've seen
> >> >> >weren't invented by the author in the first place. When a
> >> >> >recipe is placed in a book it would be safe to assume that
> >> >> >it was intended to be used.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >For Heaven' sake use your delete key, don't get your blood
> >> >> >pressure up.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >GORMO1@AOL.COM wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> PLAGIARISM-COPYRIGHT!
> >> >> >> for the people that have nothing better to do than look at
>fault
> >>of
> >> >> >> others!
> >> >> >> one thing 99% of mags are paid for by ads before the first one is
> >>even
> >> >> >> printed!
> >> >> >> why should you care how much a teacher is photo copying as long
>as
> >>it
> >> >>is
> >> >> >> helping
> >> >> >> her/his class! (CHILDREN)
> >> >> >> and the next time one of you put a glaze recipe on clayart
>that
> >>you
> >> >>took
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> a book CM,PMI CT or any other source i hope you get permission
>or
> >>is
> >> >>that ok
> >> >> >> because it you and you don't copyright! then what in the hell to
>you
> >> >>call
> >> >>it?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> GORMO I POTTERY
> >> >> >> POTTER : JIM GORMAN
> >> >> >> 500 SOUTHGATE DRIVE
> >> >> >> BLACKSBURG,VA 24060
> >> >> >> PHONE 540-953-0673
> >> >> >> E-MAIL GORMO1@AOL.COM
> >> >> >>
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