Paul Kaye on wed 27 sep 00
Sorry Mr..Frederich, but I find your comments somewhat patronizing.
I do understand that you need to defend and support your very important
business. There are many applications of your product that necessitate a
high level of quality and this will never change.
My reason for investigating cone recipes is more philosophical.
All of the points that you have made can also be applied to formulating clay
bodies, glazes, owning your own business. For those of us who have taken on
these challenges, the rewards can be great. Please do not call cones
"insurance", many bad kiln firings have perfectly bent cones in the spy
holes.
Anyways, aren't you interested in the secret sauce on Big Macs?
>
>To all interested parties,
>
> There has been some discussion recently on producing your own
>cones.
>For those who want to try, please do so. You may find that it is more
>difficult than you thought it would be. The most important part of making a
>cone is achieving accuracy and reproducibility so that you can rely on the
>information recieved time after time. Orton has found over 29 variables
>that
>we must contend with in the production of cones. Composition is just one
>variable. Size, shape, density when pressing, binder content, moisture
>content when forming, and the purity of the water are just some of the
>other
>variables that we encounter.
> After the production of the batch powder, testing is done at
>several
>different heating rates and these have to match the standards at the
>National Bureau of Standards. Corrections may have to be made to the batch
>due to differences in materials. Testing is then done all over. Once the
>batch is approved, cones are pressed and then tested again.
> Other variables may also affect the bending of the cone such as
>atmosphere, hold times and the placement of the cones in the firing
>chamber.
>All of the above can affect the accuracy and reproducibility of cone
>deformation.
> With the low cost of cones, it is the cheapest insurance that you
>can buy to insure quality firings time after time. Your time has to be
>worth
>much more than the small amount spent on the purchase of cones for your
>firings.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Tim Frederich, Orton Ceramic Foundation
>
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Craig Martell on wed 27 sep 00
Paul sez:
>Sorry Mr..Frederich, but I find your comments somewhat patronizing.
Didn't seem that way to me. I thought the info was presented in a pretty
non biased way and I agreed with much of what Tim said.
>Please do not call cones "insurance", many bad kiln firings
>have perfectly bent cones in the spy
>holes.
Cones are the best indicator of "heat work" that I've ever used and you can
place them all over the kiln. It's pretty hard to do that with
thermocouples unless you have a lot of ports to move the probes to or a lot
of dough to purchase many. I always fire with a digital pyro and cones in
at least two points in the kiln. The bent cones will indicate heat work
done and I would bank on Orton's accuracy. Bad firings can be attributed
to a myriad of factors and I think most potters would agree to that. To
blame cones in this case is off the mark.
I've had some problems with Orton cones but given the number of firings
I've done in the past 25 yrs it has been very rare that the cones have
failed me. Most recently, I've had junior 03 cones break instead of bend
in the kiln sitter. This usually happens about 30 to 40 degrees F. below
target temp. That's when the pyrometer earns it's keep. I'm a great
believer in "being there" when the kiln reaches temp. Cones & Controllers
are convieniences in regard to shutting down kilns at the proper time and
you can't fully trust them to do your job. In terms of "heat work
indicators", I trust cones and I plan to continue using Orton cones. I
don't have the time or desire to make my own cones. There aren't enough
hours in the day to get all the pots done that I need to make. Sure, I
have to do other stuff too but one needs to be selective about time spent.
>Anyways, aren't you interested in the secret sauce on Big Macs?
Say what?
later, Craig Martell in Oregon
Paul Kaye on mon 2 oct 00
It would seem that you have misunderstood my concerns with Mr. Frederich's
comments.
I fully agree that Orton cones are of the highest quality and do a great job
of indicating heat work over time.I would never fire a kiln without cones. I
do not think that I had said otherwise.
The issue arises out of the fact that an employee of the company that makes
the cones would tell potters that"You may find that it is more difficult
than you thought it would be......Orton has found over 29
variables.....composition...size, shape, density...binder content, moisture
content...purity of water"
I will assume that most of us at one point or another has made our own glaze
or clay body to some degree of sucess. I will also assume that it is very
much within a potters ability to make cones for oneself.. To make it out to
be far more difficult than it really is,is patronizing.
Orton and other cone makers need to have exacting standards because of their
applications in labs and industry. If you want to pay for that precision
then by all means do.
To infer that I blame cones for bad firings is nonsense.
-Mr,Frederich said"...it is the cheapest insurance that you can buy to
insure quality firings time after time." this is also nonsense.
Cones have only one job, to measure heat work over time and is only useful
in the context of the knowledge that you have about the materials that you
use and all of the other variables that go into the finished product. Your
comments would seem to agree with the fact that cones are not insurance and
that the best insurance is knowledge.
Trying to make your own cones is just part of a larger education.
I like to think of CLAYART as a place where one can go to get encouragement
to try different glazes, clay, equipment, and ideas not discouragement.
PK
>From: Craig Martell
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Cones and cone recipes-patronizing
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:15:21 -0700
>
>Paul sez:
>>Sorry Mr..Frederich, but I find your comments somewhat patronizing.
>
>Didn't seem that way to me. I thought the info was presented in a pretty
>non biased way and I agreed with much of what Tim said.
>
>>Please do not call cones "insurance", many bad kiln firings
>>have perfectly bent cones in the spy
>>holes.
>
>Cones are the best indicator of "heat work" that I've ever used and you can
>place them all over the kiln. It's pretty hard to do that with
>thermocouples unless you have a lot of ports to move the probes to or a lot
>of dough to purchase many. I always fire with a digital pyro and cones in
>at least two points in the kiln. The bent cones will indicate heat work
>done and I would bank on Orton's accuracy. Bad firings can be attributed
>to a myriad of factors and I think most potters would agree to that. To
>blame cones in this case is off the mark.
>
>I've had some problems with Orton cones but given the number of firings
>I've done in the past 25 yrs it has been very rare that the cones have
>failed me. Most recently, I've had junior 03 cones break instead of bend
>in the kiln sitter. This usually happens about 30 to 40 degrees F. below
>target temp. That's when the pyrometer earns it's keep. I'm a great
>believer in "being there" when the kiln reaches temp. Cones & Controllers
>are convieniences in regard to shutting down kilns at the proper time and
>you can't fully trust them to do your job. In terms of "heat work
>indicators", I trust cones and I plan to continue using Orton cones. I
>don't have the time or desire to make my own cones. There aren't enough
>hours in the day to get all the pots done that I need to make. Sure, I
>have to do other stuff too but one needs to be selective about time spent.
>
>>Anyways, aren't you interested in the secret sauce on Big Macs?
>
>Say what?
>
>later, Craig Martell in Oregon
m.
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Frederich, Tim on wed 4 oct 00
Paul Kaye and and other interested parties,
I never meant to sound patronizing as I was stating some facts about
cones. I have been a potter for 35 years with a degree in ceramics and had
my own full time production studio for 27 years. I still do work for some of
my long time accounts and I teach all levels of ceramics at the Delaware
County Cultural Arts Center in Delaware, Ohio. I have been working for the
Orton Ceramic Foundation almost 3 years. Even with my experience and
knowledge I do not profess to be the total expert when it comes to cones and
clay. I think that everyone should experiment with all areas of ceramics if
they have the desire and the time. This is a wonderful way to learn. All
that I said was that "you may find that it is more difficult than you
thought it would be". I do not feel that this is being patronizing. It is
difficult to produce a quality repeatable product time after time.
I do feel that cones are an inexpensive method of "insurance" to
control and evaluate your firings. The cone will not run the kiln for you
but can provide the information needed so that you can do a better job of
firing the kiln. The cone can help reduce some of the guesswork in firing a
kiln. The best insurance is knowledge and that knowledge can come from the
use of cones as "insurance".
I encourage everyone to try anything they desire in the field of
ceramics. All knowledge is good and contributes to the overall growth as a
clay addict. I am still learning about ceramics every day and that has kept
clay alive and exciting for me. "The clay community is the best in the
world."
Best regards,
Tim Frederich, Orton Ceramic Foundation
GSM_ENT on thu 5 oct 00
Hi Tim!
Great statement!
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederich, Tim
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: Cones and cone recipes-patronizing
> Paul Kaye and and other interested parties,
>
> I never meant to sound patronizing as I was stating some facts
about
> cones. I have been a potter for 35 years with a degree in ceramics and had
> my own full time production studio for 27 years. I still do work for some
of
> my long time accounts and I teach all levels of ceramics at the Delaware
> County Cultural Arts Center in Delaware, Ohio. I have been working for the
> Orton Ceramic Foundation almost 3 years. Even with my experience and
> knowledge I do not profess to be the total expert when it comes to cones
and
> clay. I think that everyone should experiment with all areas of ceramics
if
> they have the desire and the time. This is a wonderful way to learn. All
> that I said was that "you may find that it is more difficult than you
> thought it would be". I do not feel that this is being patronizing. It is
> difficult to produce a quality repeatable product time after time.
> I do feel that cones are an inexpensive method of "insurance" to
> control and evaluate your firings. The cone will not run the kiln for you
> but can provide the information needed so that you can do a better job of
> firing the kiln. The cone can help reduce some of the guesswork in firing
a
> kiln. The best insurance is knowledge and that knowledge can come from the
> use of cones as "insurance".
> I encourage everyone to try anything they desire in the field of
> ceramics. All knowledge is good and contributes to the overall growth as a
> clay addict. I am still learning about ceramics every day and that has
kept
> clay alive and exciting for me. "The clay community is the best in the
> world."
>
> Best regards,
>
> Tim Frederich, Orton Ceramic Foundation
>
>
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