Peg Landham on sun 15 oct 00
When I decided my husband "needed" a digital camera for his birthday, I =
looked around a little, then bought a Sony Mavica, because I liked the =
features.
My husband, who is an engineer, (and a real fun guy to buy presents =
for,) immediately began to research digital cameras with the fervor he =
researches everything, plus the passion reserved for those objects of =
reverence known as "electronics." By the end of the week I returned the =
Mavica, and purchased the Olympus D-500L.
As usual, he was right. The picture quality is far superior. This has to =
do with the number of scan lines the camera makes, a figure you should =
be aware of as you compare models. As Joanne mentioned, you can get =
memory cards to increase your picture capacity greatly, the software =
makes the photos easy to manipulate, and you can view the pictures from =
the camera as soon as the scan is complete. The D-500L gives you a =
choice of three different resolutions for photographs, a 3x zoom, and a =
single lens reflex viewfinder with auto -focus mark. I think taking the =
photograph through an actual viewfinder rather than in "real-time" video =
is easier. It has a built-in flash, and an effective ISO of 180. For =
shooting pottery, and close-up florals, it's a dream.
My son was not as pleased. He thought the Sony had been more fun to play =
with. But then, the camera wasn't for him to begin with.
Just who it WAS for, I'll let you wonder about.
Peg Landham
Richard Jeffery on sun 15 oct 00
Kurt
try the archives - there was a lot on this about 6 months back. For the
record, I use a Nikon Coolpix 950 and am delighted. If you want more info
try off list.
Regards
Richard
Bournemouth UK
www.TheEleventhHour.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Kurt Wild
Sent: 15 October 2000 19:12
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Digital camera owners
I've finally decided I must get a digital camera primarily for the purpose
of photographing my pots; however, I think I would rather have
opinions/recommendations of Clayarters who own digital cameras rather than
trying to weed through the plethora of internet info on the subject.
My kiln holds a limited number of pots and I would like to photograph them
right after they come from the kiln and make them available on my web site
or through email. I'm interested in something under $500. The one feature
I feel I must have is the ability to view the shot in the camera
immediately after I have taken the photograph.
I would appreciate personal experiences/responses from those of you who own
a digital camera and have experience photographing pots with it.
Please don't send information referring me to various web sites
etc. Thanks in advance.
Kurt
email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Kurt Wild on sun 15 oct 00
I've finally decided I must get a digital camera primarily for the purpose
of photographing my pots; however, I think I would rather have
opinions/recommendations of Clayarters who own digital cameras rather than
trying to weed through the plethora of internet info on the subject.
My kiln holds a limited number of pots and I would like to photograph them
right after they come from the kiln and make them available on my web site
or through email. I'm interested in something under $500. The one feature
I feel I must have is the ability to view the shot in the camera
immediately after I have taken the photograph.
I would appreciate personal experiences/responses from those of you who own
a digital camera and have experience photographing pots with it.
Please don't send information referring me to various web sites
etc. Thanks in advance.
Kurt
email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
beardiepaw on sun 15 oct 00
Hi Kurt, I just did the same thing. I got a Fuji, $449.00 . i love it. it
uses a memory stick, but I can get a floppy utility thingy to use floppies
for storage if i want it. It came with a battery charger and cables to hook
up to my computer. you can keep the memory stick for future loading or
reuse it. the amount that you can store depends on the resolution you pick
to photo with....higher res, fewer pictures, just like puter. I have a 2.5
or somthing view screen, I do with I'd gotten one with 3.o viewscreen, but
mine is okay, I can live with it. Pictures viewed on it are great. I can
see what i shot immediately as well as view any others stored on the stick.
If I don't like it, I delete it and go again! Sherry Morrow, BeardiePaw
Pottery
Michael Sowers on sun 15 oct 00
I have a Sony Mavica that I use, I can see and delete if needed any picture
right after taking it and the images are on a floppy disk. I transfer them
to my hard drive, reformat the disk with the camera and shoot more. You can
view them on your screen directly from the floppy and you have a choice of
several resolutions to shoot at. I am happy with it for web work. For
printed images I still use a 35mm. You can get one for about $499 most
places. They have cheaper and more expensive models but that is the one I
use.
Mike
mike@classiclinespottery.com
Joanne L. Van Bezooyen on sun 15 oct 00
Hi Kurt,
My husband gave me an Olympus D-469 for my birthday which I am very pleased with.
It's $400. I can view photos on the camera and save or delete. He purchased an
extra memory card which holds 100's of images. The software program allows you to
crop, zoom sharpen, lightens, enhance, etc. etc.. I then save the images to a CD
disk. It zooms. It is easy to send images via e-mail or onto web-sites.
Write to me off-list and I can forward a few images to you from it if you like.
Joanne in Tucson
Kurt Wild wrote:
> I've finally decided I must get a digital camera primarily for the purpose
> of photographing my pots; however, I think I would rather have
> opinions/recommendations of Clayarters who own digital cameras rather than
> trying to weed through the plethora of internet info on the subject.
>
> My kiln holds a limited number of pots and I would like to photograph them
> right after they come from the kiln and make them available on my web site
> or through email. I'm interested in something under $500. The one feature
> I feel I must have is the ability to view the shot in the camera
> immediately after I have taken the photograph.
>
> I would appreciate personal experiences/responses from those of you who own
> a digital camera and have experience photographing pots with it.
>
> Please don't send information referring me to various web sites
> etc. Thanks in advance.
>
> Kurt
>
> email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
> website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Joanne L. Van Bezooyen
520-749-1685
Art Gecko Designs
http://www.arteriordesigns.com/noname.html
voice & fax: 520 760-1584
11220 East Via Madre
Tucson, Arizona 85749 USA
Marcia Selsor on sun 15 oct 00
I got a Sony at Sears for $499. It will hold up to 36 shots on a smart
stick at its current setting/resolution which when printed are very
clear up to a size of 11 x 14. 8x 10 looks like a photograph when
printed. We love it.We downloaded it regularly onto a laptop computer.
Marcia
beardiepaw wrote:
>
> Hi Kurt, I just did the same thing. I got a Fuji, $449.00 . i love it. it
> uses a memory stick, but I can get a floppy utility thingy to use floppies
> for storage if i want it. It came with a battery charger and cables to hook
> up to my computer. you can keep the memory stick for future loading or
> reuse it. the amount that you can store depends on the resolution you pick
> to photo with....higher res, fewer pictures, just like puter. I have a 2.5
> or somthing view screen, I do with I'd gotten one with 3.o viewscreen, but
> mine is okay, I can live with it. Pictures viewed on it are great. I can
> see what i shot immediately as well as view any others stored on the stick.
> If I don't like it, I delete it and go again! Sherry Morrow, BeardiePaw
> Pottery
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Marcia Selsor
selsor@imt.net
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
Kenneth D. Westfall on sun 15 oct 00
Kurt,
I, too, have just recently purchased a digital camera. I feel the photos
we shoot with the 35mm using Tungsten film are still much better photos for
slides due to the cost of printing slides from digital (about $2.00 per
print, and about $7.00 per slide here).
However, that said, I am very pleased with the Olympus D-360L I just
bought for $299.95. It is 1.3 Megapixels, has shutter free release, a
flash, and a 1.8" LCD display. You can shut off the LCD and the flash. It
is easy to use and has many optional shooting settings which allow for a
variety of results. The software is on CD ROM and is easy to install.
I would suggest that you might like to step up one model to the zoom lens
feature, which is about $100 more, but probably worth it. I didn't feel we
needed that feature, and in retrospect, still do not feel I NEED it.
However, for shooting pots while still stacked in the kiln, and for
shooting 'firing parties' and other non-studio setting photos, the zoom
would be a real plus.
The camera comes with an 8meg data card, which has varying storage
capabilities (how many photos it will hold) based on the resolution which
the photos are taken. Olympus offers larger storage capacity cards (16
meg, 32 meg & 64meg?) and you can buy a USB reader/writer to make your
downloads go faster. I have not found that necessary yet, however, LIKE
ALL DIGITAL CAMERAS, IT USES A LOT OF BATTERIES!!!! You can buy
rechargeable batteries and a charger for about $25.00 or you can buy an A/C
adapter for about $60.00
If you want to see some photos which I recently took using the Olympus
D360L, go to my site of a current show of some of my pots at
show.pinehillpottery.com
I know you said not to refer you to various websites, but I think you meant
advertisement type sites for cameras.
Hope this helps...feel free to ask more details if you like.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
pinehill@ruralnet.org
http://www.pinehillpottery.com
Frank Gaydos on sun 15 oct 00
Kurt,
I know you requested we not send you to web sites but....
A really informative and up to date site can be found at the Popular Science
web site:
http://www.popsci.com/electronics/features/cameras/index.html
In it are discussed a new cartridge that will fit into your present 35mm
camera.
The advantage here is you get better optics and lens interchangeability.
Very exciting.
Also, I read about a new chip technology that will produce resolution '
better than slides',
and very cheap. Due out next year. If you can wait, wait!
If I run across the article I'll post it's URL.
Frank Gaydos
> Kurt Wild wrote:
>
> > I've finally decided I must get a digital camera primarily for the
purpose
> > of photographing my pots; however, I think I would rather have
> > opinions/recommendations of Clayarters who own digital cameras rather
than
> > trying to weed through the plethora of internet info on the subject.
> >
> > My kiln holds a limited number of pots and I would like to photograph
them
> > right after they come from the kiln and make them available on my web
site
> > or through email. I'm interested in something under $500. The one
feature
> > I feel I must have is the ability to view the shot in the camera
> > immediately after I have taken the photograph.
> >
> > I would appreciate personal experiences/responses from those of you who
own
> > a digital camera and have experience photographing pots with it.
> >
> > Please don't send information referring me to various web sites
> > etc. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Kurt
> >
> > email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
> > website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> --
> Joanne L. Van Bezooyen
> 520-749-1685
> Art Gecko Designs
> http://www.arteriordesigns.com/noname.html
> voice & fax: 520 760-1584
> 11220 East Via Madre
> Tucson, Arizona 85749 USA
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Penelope's Pots on sun 15 oct 00
I have an Olympus D-200L. It is an older model I
believe, as my father lent it to me a while ago to
take pics of my pots as well as my kids and then got a
new one.
My camera has the view option and I love it. If I
don't like the shot I just delete it right away.
The most important thing about all this I think (and I
am no expert- remember that!) is the program you use
to not only download your pictures but also the one
you use to crop, rotate, fix your pics. You need to be
able to choose the resolution and formate you save the
pictures in. Too low a resolution and you can't
enlarge the photo without a great amount of distortion
or graining.
I hope this helped a little.
Good Luck
=====
Penni Stoddart of Penelope's Pots
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines =o)
_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Ducka Kelly on mon 16 oct 00
Kurt,
I have had a Sony Mavica 71 digital camers for a couple years. It
has the LCD screen and saves images on disc. I have even found an
inexpensive program to download to my MAC. It has 10 x zoom as well and
more features that I ever use. Wonderful and easy. The drawback is only
having LCD and not view finder. I have used the one with the viewfinder and
it is much easier to focus and take the picture. I need glasses for close
up and find it very difficult to focus without the viewfinder. If there is
any glaze on the LCD screen it is very difficult to see the subject.
Unfortunately it is a more expensive camera and I would suggest if at all
possible getting it.
Ducka Kelly
ducka@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 13:12:11 -0500
From: Kurt Wild
Subject: Digital camera owners
I've finally decided I must get a digital camera primarily for the purpose
of photographing my pots; however, I think I would rather have
opinions/recommendations of Clayarters who own digital cameras rather than
trying to weed through the plethora of internet info on the subject.
My kiln holds a limited number of pots and I would like to photograph them
right after they come from the kiln and make them available on my web site
or through email. I'm interested in something under $500. The one feature
I feel I must have is the ability to view the shot in the camera
immediately after I have taken the photograph.
I would appreciate personal experiences/responses from those of you who own
a digital camera and have experience photographing pots with it.
Please don't send information referring me to various web sites
etc. Thanks in advance.
Kurt
email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
-----------------------------
Kurt Wild on mon 16 oct 00
At 08:47 PM 10/15/2000 -0400, you wrote lots of good information and I
sincerely appreciate it. Pots look good - not just the photos but your
pots! I went to the site of after visiting
your personal site.
Thanks much.
Kurt
email: KURT.L.WILD@uwrf.edu
website: http://wwwpp.uwrf.edu/~kw77
Michael Sowers on mon 16 oct 00
One thing I forgot to mention about the Sony camera is the macro
capabilities. This is what sold me on it over the others, you can lay the
lens on your watch face and it will focus if you allow a sliver of light
between the two. No other camera I looked at would focus that close, there
may be some now, I don't know. I was photographing some jewelry around the
time I was looking at cameras and this was an important feature for detailed
close ups.
Michael Sowers
Email: mike@classiclinespottery.com
Web: www.classiclinespottery.com
Quentin D Maxwell on mon 16 oct 00
I have used two digital cameras in my Graphic Design class in High school.
The first was a Sony Mavica FD-83. The second is a Sony Mavica FD-85. Both
are excellent cameras with Mega pixel ability. They record the pic right
on a floppy disc and are pre-viewable. They are a bit higher than the $500
you mentioned, but are well worth it. The FD-83 was around $600 and the
FD-85 was around $700.
The only reason I got the second camera was because the English Dept.
needed one for their publications classes and a new grant opened up to get
me the newer one, so I gave them the older one (it was only 1 year old).
Hope this helps.
Love & Prayers,
Q.
qmaxwell@mail.llion.org
Earl Brunner on mon 16 oct 00
I like my Olympus D-460, 1.3 megapixel capability, zoom
lens, I have a floppy adapter that I pull the flash card out
of the camera, put it in the floppy adapter and download
just like from a regular floppy. view screen on the back.
Quentin D Maxwell wrote:
>
> I have used two digital cameras in my Graphic Design class in High school.
> The first was a Sony Mavica FD-83. The second is a Sony Mavica FD-85. Both
> are excellent cameras with Mega pixel ability. They record the pic right
> on a floppy disc and are pre-viewable. They are a bit higher than the $500
> you mentioned, but are well worth it. The FD-83 was around $600 and the
> FD-85 was around $700.
>
> The only reason I got the second camera was because the English Dept.
> needed one for their publications classes and a new grant opened up to get
> me the newer one, so I gave them the older one (it was only 1 year old).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Love & Prayers,
> Q.
> qmaxwell@mail.llion.org
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
John Rodgers on mon 16 oct 00
Peg, Interesting story about the camera. But I have a question about the on-screen presentation of your message.
I get a lot of mail from Clayart with the text strung out in a single line that seems endless when trying to read the message. Your message thru clayart just came in that way.
I have been using Netscape for some years and currently I'm running the latest version. Ever since the home base of Clayart was moved from the University of Kentucky, with Joe Molinaro running the show, there has been this single line thing going on. With Joe it never happened. Since moving is happens every day.
So my question is "What computer and operating system are you running?" I'm just trying to get some if my computer has a problem, or if yours does, and if a lot of others on clayart has problems.
Just searching for solutions on that situation.
How is the search for studio space going? Would you and Tena consider a third partner. As I mentioned, I am looking for space as well. Need something that is capable of handling a big workshop a couple of times a year. But the rest of the time, I would need so much space.
Just thoughts.
Later,
John Rdogers
Peg Landham wrote:
> When I decided my husband "needed" a digital camera for his birthday, I looked around a little, then bought a Sony Mavica, because I liked the features.
>
> My husband, who is an engineer, (and a real fun guy to buy presents for,) immediately began to research digital cameras with the fervor he researches everything, plus the passion reserved for those objects of reverence known as "electronics." By the end of the week I returned the Mavica, and purchased the Olympus D-500L.
>
> As usual, he was right. The picture quality is far superior. This has to do with the number of scan lines the camera makes, a figure you should be aware of as you compare models. As Joanne mentioned, you can get memory cards to increase your picture capacity greatly, the software makes the photos easy to manipulate, and you can view the pictures from the camera as soon as the scan is complete. The D-500L gives you a choice of three different resolutions for photographs, a 3x zoom, and a single lens reflex viewfinder with auto -focus mark. I think taking the photograph through an actual viewfinder rather than in "real-time" video is easier. It has a built-in flash, and an effective ISO of 180. For shooting pottery, and close-up florals, it's a dream.
>
> My son was not as pleased. He thought the Sony had been more fun to play with. But then, the camera wasn't for him to begin with.
>
> Just who it WAS for, I'll let you wonder about.
>
> Peg Landham
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Tom Wirt/Betsy Price on mon 16 oct 00
Kurt...One suggestion, once you do decide on a camera and model, and I
know you said you didn't want website recommendations, I DO really
suggest going to
http://www.imaging-resource.com/
They review just about everything in great depth and from real use.
It could keep you from buying something that has some feature that
will just bug the hell out of you. I'm like everyone else, I
recommend the items I use.
Tom Wirt
PS They also have articles posted that can help get the most from
your camera once you get it.
Marcia Selsor on mon 16 oct 00
Kurt,
I forgot to answer all your questions.
I have a Sony DSC-S30 from Sears. It has no video capacity, just stills.
Excellent Quality images. Downloads to a computer from smart sticks, no
disc involved.
Has a zoom. Best thing I like about it is its size, very small.smaller
than my old pentex 35mm.
You can view image immediately.
Got $499 and is still at that price.
Marcia
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Marcia Selsor
selsor@imt.net
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
george koller on mon 16 oct 00
Happy Jack wrote:
>> I'm interested in a DIGITAL CAMERA under $500.
>>The one feature I feel I must have is the ability to view the
shot in the camera immediately after I have taken the photograph.
Hello Happy Jack,
We have found our Digital Camera to be very convenient. Even our two year old
Olympus 500DL camera with a maximum pixel count of 0.85M has more than sufficient
resolution for the usual Internet purposes. I'll try to make a list of
considerations that may not be obvious:
1.) Overrides for camera settings for flexibility beyond "point and shoot". Best
value "Point and shoot cameras" will not have this, low end "professional" cameras
will. You likely will want/need some professional features before you will stay
happy.
2.) Does it sight through the lens for what you see is what you get or do you just
get something else? (SLR - I think it is an important feature).
3.) Be aware that there are two types of zoom - one is genuine and very convenient
for some kinds of shooting. The other kind is "electronic" which decreases
resolution as it "focuses" on a part of the image. This seems like a quality
"trap" for the unaware.
4.) Decide if you need additional chargers, power cords, batteries, extra
chargers, or whatever and include this in your price. You might find you will
want more memory, factor this in.
5.) How many shots can you take at the expected resolution? And how long will it
take to get this onto your computer. (serial cables will tend to be slowest.
6.) Consider if you want a good case for moving (or jumping off bridges), and other
things you may do with it.
7.) A "macro" feature might be useful for close-ups, I'm really not sure, but I
have found it useful for capturing images from small flat items.
8.) Color trueness. I suspect this is a BIG and bottomless can of worms. I
"love" my Olympus 500DL but when I compared colors on my screen (directly from my
camera) to the actual ceramic objects the inaccuracy was much more than I would
have expected. You get a good feeling of the piece in some way, but accuracy seems
to be a very complex issue and your camera is only a part of it because what you
are seeing must also be shown on a screen (which cannot be avoided).
9.) If you are using the Camera strictly in a studio situation there may be some
ways to save money and get more camera by not demanding small size and battery
power.
10.) Dimensions and quality (light) of the image viewer.
11.) Some cameras may include a "photoshop lite" or similar package. If you don't
have this already it will be good to know about.
12.) Tripod base and type - I suppose some "point and shoots: may not have this, or
may require you to buy a new one.
Couple of more notes. You may not want to use the web to review your camera but I
would seriously consider using the web to find your best price. Savings can be
substantial as well as find a source with real digital camera expertise to help you
make the final selection. Two years ago I saved almost 40% off of local sales
prices by buying at a New York shop with lots of Digital Camera expertise - I think
it is all they sell. Anyway, no connection etc.
The name of the shop is:
Best Stop Digital
1-800-339-8357
Hope this helps,
George Koller
Sturgeon Bay, WI - Door County
Where we are hearing about snow but haven't seen any yet here - no particular
hurry, we love the fall season and our woods are aglow
with color. Still haven't put the boat away.
Norman van der Sluys on tue 17 oct 00
John Rodgers wrote:
>
> I get a lot of mail from Clayart with the text strung out in a single line that seems endless when trying to read the message. Your message thru clayart just came in that way.
>
> John,
Go to and expand , select and check the box under MESSAGE WRAPPING that reads " Wrap incoming> > >".
There is also an option to set the wrap length for your outgoing messages. I set mine at 72 characters.
--
Norman van der Sluys
by the shore of Lake Michigan
John Rodgers on tue 17 oct 00
Thanks, that worked!!
John Rodgers
Norman van der Sluys wrote:
> John Rodgers wrote:
>
> >
> > I get a lot of mail from Clayart with the text strung out in a single line that seems endless when trying to read the message. Your message thru clayart just came in that way.
> >
> > John,
>
> Go to and expand , select and check the box under MESSAGE WRAPPING that reads " Wrap incoming> > >".
> There is also an option to set the wrap length for your outgoing messages. I set mine at 72 characters.
>
> --
> Norman van der Sluys
>
> by the shore of Lake Michigan
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
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