David Hendley on sun 15 oct 00
Since I started this with my 'jury fee hustle' post,
here is a response to those who defend this practice.
First of all, I was never 'dumping' on art shows, just jury fees.
Second, I think, spread out around the world as we are, that
various people may be thinking of different situations.
Judging by where you live, Gail, and by the comments of
Kathi LeSeur and Jeremy, you all are writing about huge,
prestigious national art fairs.
I'm not. I never leave Texas, and we don't even have
such shows here.
What has happened here is that the old shows, with decades
of history, and usually put on to benefit a local museum
or arts group, have hired companies to 'produce' their art fairs.
All of a sudden, there is a 'jury fee' to apply to the show.
I think there is only one reason for this: because these
experienced promoters know that this is an easy way to
increase revenue. And yes, these companies exist to make
a profit.
Sure it takes time and effort to organize, look at, and judge
slides (there are, however, no hotels, meals, etc., because the
jurors are local people).
Well, so do all aspects of producing a show. If you can't cover
the expenses, raise the booth fee for participation in the show.
It still comes down to:
Why should people who get no benefit pay part of the expenses?
Actors are not charged to audition for a play and athletes are
not charged to try out for a team.
On second thought, maybe the show promotion company can
help me.
Heck, I could start charging people to come into my showroom.
It's only fair; I had to build all the displays, buy the lighting
fixtures, and design and print brochures to get them there in
the first place. I have to answer questions on the phone, pay
the utilities, maintain a website, and pay taxes.
Sounds great; charge a fee to look, and then those selected
can pay more to buy.
A jury fee does absolutely nothing to ensure that 'things will
be done right' or that the artists selected are 'serious'.
The artists have already spent hundreds of dollars to
make, or have made, professional quality slides.
Your chance of being selected for a show does not change
one bit if you are charged an extra 'jury fee', or the show
included jurying expenses in their overall budget. Unless,
of course, there is less competition because some people
prefer to spend their gambling money at casinos rather
than on jury fees.
It is true that imposing a jury fee will reduce the number of
applications to a show (you've lost me, for instance).
If reducing the number of applicants is a worthwhile goal,
why fool around with 20 or 30 dollar jury fees?
Go for a $100 jury fee. Why stop there, go for $500. That
ought to make the number of applications more manageable
and make sure those people are REALLY serious!
Finally, I understand why many artists pay jury fees. It's
only $20, a drop in the bucket compared to all the other
expenses of participating in a show, and insignificant
compared to the potential profit.
Fine. Do what you have to do.
But I say charging someone to 'audition', just because you
can get away with it, is a cheap and sleazy way to do things.
On a par with that $5 charge for a 3 minute call from
'Rip-off Long Distance' on your hotel bill, that $100 you
paid for a sheet of plywood the day before the hurricane hit,
and Steve Martin charging actors to audition for his movie
in 'Bowfinger'.
--
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: Gail Dapogny
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 11:11 PM
Subject: jury fees, etc.
| Hi,
| I've been pretty amazed at the current dumping on art shows with little or
| nothing to substantiate many of the throw-away statements. It's the sheer
| presumtuousness that has floored me, the assumptions that all or most
| organizers don't know or care about about the arts, that greed motivates
| these organizations, that they are raking in dough, that they are an
| unnecessary ripoff, gouging the artists, leveeing punitive damages on
new
| artists simply for the "ten seconds" it may take to see that they have
| unprofessional slides?, and on and on. This thread has produced some of
| the most vindictive statements I've ever seen on Clayart, and many of
them
| reflect a lot of ignorance and apparent sour grapes..
|
| Obviously most people haven't a clue about the fees and expenses involved;
| but in that case don't be condescending and make assumptions. If someone
| make off- the- wall public statements about your private business
endeavors
| and your pricing, you'd be outraged.
| Consider: the year long process: marketing, designing, printing and
| mailing thousands of applications; paying for and maintaining a web site
| for the sake of better serving aritsts; paying staff to handle hundreds of
| requests for applications; fielding countless questions; a different
| staff to process and review applications, solve problems, handle thousands
| of slides, often over a period of months; room and equipment rentals;
juror
| stipends, ( sometimes for a large jurying crew brought in to assess the
| various media to be invited), travel, meals and room; responding to
| thousands of letters, e-mails, and faxes; making steep permit costs,
| sponsorship costs, city fees, etc. etc. etc.
|
| It is also important that jury fees usually result in a small REDUCTION
in
| the numbers of applicants and reduces the competition numbers. The quality
| stays high and the jurors can concentrate and give artists a more
| considered assessment. Jury fees help to weed out those applicants who
| would apply to anything if it's cheap enough.
|
| Jeremy Kalin stated it so well in his remarks:
| >>"I have absolutely no problem paying $20, 30, or even 40 dollar jury
fees
| >>to higher-end sales-oriented shows ...if I feel that the competitive
| >>nature of the show means that should I participate, I will likely make
| >>enough money to make it worth my time, energy, and capital output.
|
| >> It is an honor to be included in shows and fairs where everywhere one
| >>looks there is work of the highest quality (Smithsonian Craft Fair;
| >>Winter Park, FL; Ann Arbor Street Art Fair; Cherry Creek are all good
| >>examples of competitive shows that
| value showing the best work possible in all media). The energy and time
and
| output of capital it requires to put on a top-quality show is incredible,
| and jurying is one of the main emphases of this process. It can take two
or
| three days to look at the slides alone,
| and many hundreds of people hours to process the applicaitons, sort
slides,
| prepare all the carousels so mistakes aren't made that might cost someone
| the opportunity to have a 10,000 dollar weekend, etc... I will pay them 30
| bucks to make sure things are done right and that I have an equal
| opportunity to get in, not a "chance". Chance quates to luck; opportunity
| equates to possibilities based on the quality of our work, slides, etc...
|
| >> Frankly, most of the time, I will pay someone a jury fee (and a
| >>commission for a gallery show or a booth fee for a street/ craft fair)
to
| >>dot his work on our behalf. The
| best shows don't miss the ball much. Shows that do mess up too often won't
| get my participation until they show they have turned things around."
|
| And Terrance said:
| >>"Another reason a jury fee is levied is to ensure that the person
| >>applying for
| the salon is a serious; someone who is confident that he can make the
sales
| necessary to meet his marketing costs.
|
| >>I have put together many shows where when there was no jury fee, all
kinds
| of bad craft was submitted, artists did not have sufficient stock to meet
the
| demands, the booths were poorly designed and artists had absolutely no
idea
| of how much time they had to give to the show. When they got tired of not
| selling they often quit the show early."
|
|
| This post is long, and for this I apologize. But, believe me, art fair
| organizations do not exist to rake in profit; most often they break even;
| they generally agonize over ways to keep artist costs down. You need to
| understand the tremendous work and organization and THE UTTER COMMITMENT
TO
| THE ARTS AND THE ARTISTS that go in to the finer art fairs. You are off in
| left field if you think that these organizers are greedy business folks
| who don't know and care about finding the best art in North America. I
| suggest, if you live near one of the high quality fairs, that you
volunteer
| to serve on its board for a while. You may find that your life won't be
| your own.
|
| -----Gail
|
| Gail Dapogny
| 1154 Olden Road
| Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
| (734) 665-9816
| gdapogny@umich.edu
| www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny
|
Gail Dapogny on sun 15 oct 00
Hi,
I've been pretty amazed at the current dumping on art shows with little or
nothing to substantiate many of the throw-away statements. It's the sheer
presumtuousness that has floored me, the assumptions that all or most
organizers don't know or care about about the arts, that greed motivates
these organizations, that they are raking in dough, that they are an
unnecessary ripoff, gouging the artists, leveeing punitive damages on new
artists simply for the "ten seconds" it may take to see that they have
unprofessional slides?, and on and on. This thread has produced some of
the most vindictive statements I've ever seen on Clayart, and many of them
reflect a lot of ignorance and apparent sour grapes..
Obviously most people haven't a clue about the fees and expenses involved;
but in that case don't be condescending and make assumptions. If someone
make off- the- wall public statements about your private business endeavors
and your pricing, you'd be outraged.
Consider: the year long process: marketing, designing, printing and
mailing thousands of applications; paying for and maintaining a web site
for the sake of better serving aritsts; paying staff to handle hundreds of
requests for applications; fielding countless questions; a different
staff to process and review applications, solve problems, handle thousands
of slides, often over a period of months; room and equipment rentals; juror
stipends, ( sometimes for a large jurying crew brought in to assess the
various media to be invited), travel, meals and room; responding to
thousands of letters, e-mails, and faxes; making steep permit costs,
sponsorship costs, city fees, etc. etc. etc.
It is also important that jury fees usually result in a small REDUCTION in
the numbers of applicants and reduces the competition numbers. The quality
stays high and the jurors can concentrate and give artists a more
considered assessment. Jury fees help to weed out those applicants who
would apply to anything if it's cheap enough.
Jeremy Kalin stated it so well in his remarks:
>>"I have absolutely no problem paying $20, 30, or even 40 dollar jury fees
>>to higher-end sales-oriented shows ...if I feel that the competitive
>>nature of the show means that should I participate, I will likely make
>>enough money to make it worth my time, energy, and capital output.
>> It is an honor to be included in shows and fairs where everywhere one
>>looks there is work of the highest quality (Smithsonian Craft Fair;
>>Winter Park, FL; Ann Arbor Street Art Fair; Cherry Creek are all good
>>examples of competitive shows that
value showing the best work possible in all media). The energy and time and
output of capital it requires to put on a top-quality show is incredible,
and jurying is one of the main emphases of this process. It can take two or
three days to look at the slides alone,
and many hundreds of people hours to process the applicaitons, sort slides,
prepare all the carousels so mistakes aren't made that might cost someone
the opportunity to have a 10,000 dollar weekend, etc... I will pay them 30
bucks to make sure things are done right and that I have an equal
opportunity to get in, not a "chance". Chance quates to luck; opportunity
equates to possibilities based on the quality of our work, slides, etc...
>> Frankly, most of the time, I will pay someone a jury fee (and a
>>commission for a gallery show or a booth fee for a street/ craft fair) to
>>dot his work on our behalf. The
best shows don't miss the ball much. Shows that do mess up too often won't
get my participation until they show they have turned things around."
And Terrance said:
>>"Another reason a jury fee is levied is to ensure that the person
>>applying for
the salon is a serious; someone who is confident that he can make the sales
necessary to meet his marketing costs.
>>I have put together many shows where when there was no jury fee, all kinds
of bad craft was submitted, artists did not have sufficient stock to meet the
demands, the booths were poorly designed and artists had absolutely no idea
of how much time they had to give to the show. When they got tired of not
selling they often quit the show early."
This post is long, and for this I apologize. But, believe me, art fair
organizations do not exist to rake in profit; most often they break even;
they generally agonize over ways to keep artist costs down. You need to
understand the tremendous work and organization and THE UTTER COMMITMENT TO
THE ARTS AND THE ARTISTS that go in to the finer art fairs. You are off in
left field if you think that these organizers are greedy business folks
who don't know and care about finding the best art in North America. I
suggest, if you live near one of the high quality fairs, that you volunteer
to serve on its board for a while. You may find that your life won't be
your own.
-----Gail
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny
moorejnb@JUNO.COM on sun 15 oct 00
Thank you, Gail.
I have stayed out of the discussion for fear that my perspective as
someone whose fair charges a jury fee would be considered "rationalizing"
or "making excuses." I don't know about other fairs, but I work my butt
off all year round to ensure that the fair operated by my non-profit
organization stays committed to making money for the artists. It seems
to have worked: our avg sales per booth increased $1000 from '99 to '00
and now stands at over $3000. One artist made nearly $30,000.
We set the jury fee to pay for the printing and mailing of the call for
entries to 4000 interested artists, to cover staff time for receiving and
organizing the entries, to pay for the jurors, and to cover time and
materials for notifying the artists. The jury process ensures that our
audiences get a quality fair, and the amount of income the artists
receive reflects the audience's belief that it is quality. If it wasn't,
they wouldn't come. We are not out to "gouge" the artists--in fact, our
booth fee is still under $200 when other fairs in our area charge upwards
of $300 for less square footage--and I have been resenting the tone of
the discussion that assumes that fair operators see artists as merely a
source of income.
I won't go into what our organization does with what we earn from the
fair, but suffice it to say that we earn nearly 20% of our annual
programming budget that directly goes to serve artists in a variety of
capacities, from providing equipment, studio space, and business
resources to educating our community as to the value of art so that
future customers are ensured.
To request an application to our fair, email us at inartctr@netdirect.net
Julia Moore
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Peg Landham on sun 15 oct 00
Julia, Gail, et al.,
I obviously owe you and others an apology. Although I think the person =
who originated this subject had a valid point, I took it a bit too far =
in the letter I drafted. I appreciate the perspective you and others =
have given us all on the expenses involved.
Although I understand why jury fees are a necessary part of the process, =
I do think when they get too high to allow new artists to break into the =
field, there's something wrong with the cost distribution. Julia, you =
say your booth fees are low, but not how high your jury fees are, so I'm =
not sure we even have an argument. But if, say, you are charging =
prospective artists $40 to apply, would it be unreasonable to have the =
artists who actually benefit from the show pay a little more of the =
costs incurred by increasing booth fees and holding the line on jury =
fees?
I have learned a great deal on this list in the short time I've been a =
member, not the least of which is, if you want some discussion, don't =
ask questions, make a controversial statement. I don't aim to become the =
Rush Limbaugh of the Clayart World, and I really don't like to hurt =
people's feelings. Unfortunately, I tend to get blinded by projects and =
causes.
I have written a more thoughtful version of the letter, that focuses =
more on the point behind the rant. I would really appreciate as many =
varied perspectives as possible. If you are willing to share your point =
of view, please ask me to send you the letter off-line.
Peg Landham
plandham@charter.net
moorejnb@JUNO.COM on mon 16 oct 00
FYI, our jury fees are $20. Not unreasonable.
J. Moore
> Although I understand why jury fees are a necessary part of the
> process, I do think when they get too high to allow new artists to
> break into the field, there's something wrong with the cost
> distribution. Julia, you say your booth fees are low, but not how
> high your jury fees are, so I'm not sure we even have an argument.
>
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
ZALT@AOL.COM on mon 16 oct 00
Kathi;
You may be able to get away with your plan for a year or two. Once you see
that the artists are just using you to meet their own agenda you will begin
to charge Administration fees, Jury fees, Storage fees, credit fees, and what
ever.
So away you go. I wish you luck
Terrance
Diane G. Echlin on mon 16 oct 00
moorejnb@JUNO.COM wrote:
> Thank you, Gail.
>
> I have stayed out of the discussion for fear that my perspective as
> someone whose fair charges a jury fee would be considered "rationalizing"
> or "making excuses."
Julia,
although I'm not sure where my opinion falls on the issue of jury fees, I wanted to
comment on your post. I've come to view Clayart as an exceptional forum for
discussion on the many sides of many issues, and I think it's important to hear
from people who may have an "unpopular" perspective. I for one have little
knowledge of what it takes to put on a high quality craft show, and your
explanation is clear and edifying. And you point of view and experiences as a
promoter are valuable to the discusssion. Don't hold back because you don't fit
into the populist view! I doubt you will be blackballed, and your comments may
help others to understand the process and more importantly, may help others feel
less taken advantage of by the process!
Diane in CT
Gail Dapogny on mon 16 oct 00
Please folks, let's stop the mass of collective inaccuracies and blatant
generalizing on this subject. Don't know/ can't imagine what arts
organization you've been associated with, but this is not what goes on in
the major fairs and shows.
There have been enough careless and thoughtless statements thrown out about
all this to sink a ship. They are potentially damaging to the high
integrity art fairs and the fine, overworked, underpaid, caring folks who
run them.
---Gail
>In a message dated 10/16/00 1:02:03 AM, plandham@CHARTER.NET writes:
>
><< Although I understand why jury fees are a necessary part of the process, >>
>
>If you've ever worked for or been a volunteer for an arts organization that
>puts on a show you'll know how big a scam the jury fee is. It is not intended
>to cover the cost of jurying. It is a fund raiser. Applications are opened,
>sorted, and slides put in carousels by unpaid volunteers. Much of the running
>of the show is done by volunteers, also. While most shows pay jurors for
>their time and provide them with food and housing the costs associated with
>this are well beneath the funds raised through the fees. Anything over $5, in
>my humble opinion, is excessive.
>
>When fairs first started they were seen as a public service bringing artist
>and patron together to buy original artwork. Fees were minimal and there was
>not admission fee. "Enjoy an original oil painting from an artist you met and
>talked with rather than buying a Van Gogh print". Now fairs are so expensive
>for artists that they have to spend all of their time producing rather than
>creating new work. Prints are an expected part of the show because it's the
>only way painters can cover their costs. And legitimate print forms
>(serigraph, woodcuts) have all but disappearedd.
>
>There is only one solution. That is for artists to start new fairs under
>their own runs run, by themselves, with bylaws that can only be changes by a
>super majority. And don't fall into the non-profit trap. Becoming non-profit
>is the first step to giving up control of your fair to outsiders. The
>possible tax liability isn't enough to warrent trying to get out of it.
>
>Kathi LeSueur
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on mon 16 oct 00
In a message dated 10/16/00 1:02:03 AM, plandham@CHARTER.NET writes:
<< Although I understand why jury fees are a necessary part of the process, >>
If you've ever worked for or been a volunteer for an arts organization that
puts on a show you'll know how big a scam the jury fee is. It is not intended
to cover the cost of jurying. It is a fund raiser. Applications are opened,
sorted, and slides put in carousels by unpaid volunteers. Much of the running
of the show is done by volunteers, also. While most shows pay jurors for
their time and provide them with food and housing the costs associated with
this are well beneath the funds raised through the fees. Anything over $5, in
my humble opinion, is excessive.
When fairs first started they were seen as a public service bringing artist
and patron together to buy original artwork. Fees were minimal and there was
not admission fee. "Enjoy an original oil painting from an artist you met and
talked with rather than buying a Van Gogh print". Now fairs are so expensive
for artists that they have to spend all of their time producing rather than
creating new work. Prints are an expected part of the show because it's the
only way painters can cover their costs. And legitimate print forms
(serigraph, woodcuts) have all but disappearedd.
There is only one solution. That is for artists to start new fairs under
their own runs run, by themselves, with bylaws that can only be changes by a
super majority. And don't fall into the non-profit trap. Becoming non-profit
is the first step to giving up control of your fair to outsiders. The
possible tax liability isn't enough to warrent trying to get out of it.
Kathi LeSueur
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on tue 17 oct 00
In a message dated 10/17/00 7:58:49 AM, ZALT@AOL.COM writes:
<< You may be able to get away with your plan for a year or two. Once you see
that the artists are just using you to meet their own agenda you will begin
to charge Administration fees, Jury fees, Storage fees, credit fees, and what
ever.
>>
Frankly, I would never do this on my own. I would only do it if enough people
were willing to get together to organize, write bylaws that required
exhibitors to work the show, and were a compatible group.
There is a show here for just clay. While one man is in charge of the
organizing, it is put on by the exhibitors. Everyone works 14 hours of the
show over a three day period. There is a central checkout (actually 14 of
them). The show is in it's twenty-fifth year. No one is hired to work the
show. From set up to teardown it is done by the exhibitors. It is the most
successful and fun show I do and I glad I was asked to participate.
Kathi LeSueur
OWLPOTTER@AOL.COM on tue 17 oct 00
In a message dated 10/17/0 10:50:36 AM, you wrote:
>FYI, our jury fees are $20. Not unreasonable.
>J. Moore
I guess it depends on what I get for my $20 jury fee. If it is a form letter
of rejection sent back in my very own self-addressed-stamped-envelope, then I
consider $20 absolutely outrageously unreasonable!!!
If a show sees the need to increase its income, I suggest they simply raise
the booth fees to those who are accepted into the show and do away with the
jury fee. That way, those who benefit from the jurying, pay. And those who
do not benefit do not pay.
If for my $20 jury fee, I received a detailed slide by slide critque of my
slide presentation, some idea of each juror's impression of each piece of
work and how I could improve these things; along with how the jury scored
the slides and how the viewing process worked, who the jury was composed of
and how my score stacked up against those who were accepted in my category or
media, then I just might consider sending in my $20.
Otherwise, I might as well take the $20 and buy lottery tickets!
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
amy parker on wed 18 oct 00
Kathy - How do you set up the payments at this show? You say 14 "central
checkouts" - does this mean that all the exhibitors work at the one
checkout point, collecting checks and cash individually, or do you have
some kind of central payment, or a VISA/Mastercard arrangement?
Amy
>There is a show here for just clay. While one man is in charge of the
>organizing, it is put on by the exhibitors. Everyone works 14 hours of the
>show over a three day period. There is a central checkout (actually 14 of
>them). The show is in it's twenty-fifth year. No one is hired to work the
>show. From set up to teardown it is done by the exhibitors. It is the most
>successful and fun show I do and I glad I was asked to participate.
>
>Kathi LeSueur
>
Amy Parker
Lithonia, GA
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on wed 18 oct 00
In a message dated 10/18/00 6:39:47 PM, amyp@SD-SOFTWARE.COM writes:
<< Kathy - How do you set up the payments at this show? You say 14 "central
checkouts" - does this mean that all the exhibitors work at the one
checkout point, collecting checks and cash individually, or do you have
some kind of central payment, or a VISA/Mastercard arrangement?
>>
There are fourteen separate checkouts. Each has a person writing up the sale
and taking money and a person wrapping the items. Every artist has a code for
their work. Mine is HN. Beyond that there is a code for the area the pot came
from. Such as HN70065 would mean that the piece came from the main floor area
where higher priced pieces are located and cost $65. All sales are recorded
with the code at the checkouts. Checks and charges are accepted. The codes
are tabulated at the end of the show and then the artists are paid less a 15%
commission which funds the show and the community college's ceramics program.
Kathi
Pam Duncan on thu 19 oct 00
This is a great concept for a sale. Our local pottery guild is planning to
do a pottery fair next spring, with the individual potters being responsible
for their sales and all the business that goes along with operating a
business. My questions to you about your set up is
1. Who holds the "business license" and does the sales tax collections
and reports?
2. Who has the merchant account for doing the credit card sales?
If it is the guild, do you have more than the one sale per year? Do you
have a guild gallery that is open year round and you just take in more
"vendors" for the sale you have described? The situation that you have
described is a great way to introduce potters to selling their work without
their having to do all the BUSINESS that goes along with it.
Pam in Cinti
All sales are recorded
>with the code at the checkouts. Checks and charges are accepted. The codes
>are tabulated at the end of the show and then the artists are paid less a
>15%
>commission which funds the show and the community college's ceramics
>program.
>
>Kathi
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on thu 19 oct 00
In a message dated 10/19/00 10:25:43 AM, jessiedog11@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
<< This is a great concept for a sale. Our local pottery guild is planning to
do a pottery fair next spring, with the individual potters being responsible
for their sales and all the business that goes along with operating a
business. My questions to you about your set up is
1. Who holds the "business license" and does the sales tax collections
and reports?
2. Who has the merchant account for doing the credit card sales?>>
I would imagine that in this case the community college owns both the
business license and the credit card account.
In your case, getting the business license and merchant account would depend,
I would imagine, on how loosely or tightly structured the organization is. If
you have legal representation, I'd talk with them and whoever advises you in
financial matters especially to make sure that the officers of your
organization are protected from liability.
Second, you must give out 1099 tax forms for the sales for each artist. You
must charge sales tax (and you must pay it!).
<> This
sale is put on by the students and faculty of the communnity college with
several other potters (myself included) invited to participate. There is no
gallery.
Why has this format worked for 25 years? I would say that the most important
reason is that the participants leave their egos at the door. There are some
participants in this show with national reputations. Others are just
embarking on their careers. There is a wide range of work offered to the
public and they buy it all. When yu wrap up $1000 worth of pots for one
customer, 75% of which you think are really of inferior quality, and
then........ there is one of your own "best" pieces it makes you question
your own right and ability to make judgements of quality. Either the customer
has good taste or doesn't. Your "best" piece indicates they have good taste.
But, the fact that they love all of the pots they are buying either means
your pot wasn't as good as you thought or you just don't really know what's
good. Very sobering.
If your organization has members who look with disdain at others who they
believe aren't as good, then the project is doomed to failure.
Kathi LeSueur
Gail Dapogny on sun 22 oct 00
Beth,
If you really think that your fellow potters are making $100,000 a year or
anything like that, you're on a different planet from the one I live on. I
don't intend any disrespect by this, but this just is very far off base.
And by the way it is not just "starting out" potters who don't make much
money. Nevertheless, I am quite certain that the jury fees in the area of
$25 are very much needed for the extremely high cost of putting on a
quality art fair.
And, incidentally, the wealthy "art patron ..who can afford to volunteer
time to the arts" is very often one of your non-wealthy friends or fellow
artists. The wealthy are not in sight' certainly they are not out there
putting on art fairs, believe me.
No, $25 is not a piddling amount; I'm an average potter who has to pay it
also. And why do I volunteer as a board member for an art fair? Because
it is my way of giving back something to the arts and because of the
pride--mine-- involved in being a part of a splendid event. Other than
that, I'm just another hard-working potter like yourself.
----Gail Dapogny
>I know there has been oh so many posts concerning jury fees. Some pro, some
>con. I am not at the point where I have to worry about them yet, but I
>wonder if the increase of fees is due to a misunderstanding by relatively
>wealthy 'patrons of the arts' as to how much that jury fee money is worth to
>those who make less than $100,000 or more a year?
>If a new potter is just starting out, a $25 non-refundable jury fee is a lot
>of money. The 'Art Patron' probably believes that $25 is a piddling amount,
>and to someone who can afford to volunteer their time to the arts, it
>probably is a piddling amount. I suspect there is little or no intent to
>hurt the potter, but the wealthy just don't know what it is like to try to
>make money with their talents and their hands.
>
>Just a thought!
>
>Beth Donovan
>in beautiful Leavenworth, Kansas
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Beth Donovan on sun 22 oct 00
I know there has been oh so many posts concerning jury fees. Some pro, some
con. I am not at the point where I have to worry about them yet, but I
wonder if the increase of fees is due to a misunderstanding by relatively
wealthy 'patrons of the arts' as to how much that jury fee money is worth to
those who make less than $100,000 or more a year?
If a new potter is just starting out, a $25 non-refundable jury fee is a lot
of money. The 'Art Patron' probably believes that $25 is a piddling amount,
and to someone who can afford to volunteer their time to the arts, it
probably is a piddling amount. I suspect there is little or no intent to
hurt the potter, but the wealthy just don't know what it is like to try to
make money with their talents and their hands.
Just a thought!
Beth Donovan
in beautiful Leavenworth, Kansas
Beth Donovan on mon 23 oct 00
I don't think you read my message, sorry!
I do not think any potter makes $100,000 a year. I think that some people
running shows make that much, especially shows that are supposed to help the
arts.
I'm sorry I was not more clear
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Gail Dapogny
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:22 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Jury Fees, etc.
Beth,
If you really think that your fellow potters are making $100,000 a year or
anything like that, you're on a different planet from the one I live on. I
don't intend any disrespect by this, but this just is very far off base.
And by the way it is not just "starting out" potters who don't make much
money. Nevertheless, I am quite certain that the jury fees in the area of
$25 are very much needed for the extremely high cost of putting on a
quality art fair.
And, incidentally, the wealthy "art patron ..who can afford to volunteer
time to the arts" is very often one of your non-wealthy friends or fellow
artists. The wealthy are not in sight' certainly they are not out there
putting on art fairs, believe me.
No, $25 is not a piddling amount; I'm an average potter who has to pay it
also. And why do I volunteer as a board member for an art fair? Because
it is my way of giving back something to the arts and because of the
pride--mine-- involved in being a part of a splendid event. Other than
that, I'm just another hard-working potter like yourself.
----Gail Dapogny
>I know there has been oh so many posts concerning jury fees. Some pro,
some
>con. I am not at the point where I have to worry about them yet, but I
>wonder if the increase of fees is due to a misunderstanding by relatively
>wealthy 'patrons of the arts' as to how much that jury fee money is worth
to
>those who make less than $100,000 or more a year?
>If a new potter is just starting out, a $25 non-refundable jury fee is a
lot
>of money. The 'Art Patron' probably believes that $25 is a piddling
amount,
>and to someone who can afford to volunteer their time to the arts, it
>probably is a piddling amount. I suspect there is little or no intent to
>hurt the potter, but the wealthy just don't know what it is like to try to
>make money with their talents and their hands.
>
>Just a thought!
>
>Beth Donovan
>in beautiful Leavenworth, Kansas
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on mon 23 oct 00
In a message dated 10/23/00 7:52:01 AM, gdapogny@UMICH.EDU writes:
<< Nevertheless, I am quite certain that the jury fees in the area of
$25 are very much needed for the extremely high cost of putting on a
quality art fair. >>
The cost of putting on a "quality art fair" should be covered by those who
are accepted not on those who are applying. Jury fees should cover the cost
of jurying. An a fair with a jury fee of $25 and 1000 applicants will
generate $25,000 worth of jury fees. If it costs an event that much to jury
the show then something is dramatically wrong with their system.
When a show charges a "jury fee" then I expect it to be used to fund the
jurying process. It is unethical to tell me a fee is for one thing and then
to use it for another. If it's going to be used to fund the fair or other
programs then call it an "application fee".
There are many quality shows that do not charge a jury fee at all. They fund
the show completely with show fees and sponsorships.
Kathi LeSueur
BTu1690922@AOL.COM on wed 8 nov 00
Right on, David!
I am just starting out again in clay after a hiatus of 15 years. A lot has
changed, and the jury fee is new to me. Being barely able to afford the
other upfront expenses, having to pay just to be considered doesn't seem
fair. A few years back, I tried to get some original, one of a kind, relief
woodcarvings into the Ft. Worth Main St. Festival, and was rejected. At the
time, losing $20 was not so important, but now it is. Ok, but why will they
accept tie-dyed t-shirts and the same old similar type easily mass produced
products every year? I liked the show, but don't understand having to pay
for rejection. It's hard enough to market hand made work, paying to be
rejected stinks. I will be looking for the less expensive, no jury fee shows
in the future.
Gail Turton
Gilchrist, TX
| |
|
