John Britt on wed 18 oct 00
Hello,
I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
pressure?
She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
Thanks,
John Britt
Penland
penlandclay@juno.com
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Dan Hill on wed 18 oct 00
John
I leave in Eastern Ontario and fire in similar weather conditions. I
have had no problems with my 500 gal. tank. Yes, it can form ice on the
surface but as long as I don,t let the tank get down to below 20% there
has not been any problem with presure.
* Note that I fire with a max. of 15 inches of pressure on the water
column which is less than 1 lb.
Dan.
Wilno Ontario.
John Britt wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
> have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
> about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
> The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
> She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
>
> Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
> Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
> pressure?
>
> She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
> experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt
> Penland
> penlandclay@juno.com
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Jeff Brown on wed 18 oct 00
John,
I have about the same setup in New Hampshire with an above ground tank. I
have lost pressure when the gas was below 30% in the tank.
When the tank is between 80 % and 45%I have had no problem firing in 20
degree weather (at 2 lb. pressure)(it takes 15% of the tank to fire ^10).
Jeff Brown
http://www.jeffbrownpottery.com
jeff@jeffbrownpottery.com
Norman van der Sluys on wed 18 oct 00
I don't think there should be a problem. My personal experience has been with much
smaller kilns and 300 gallon tanks but friends have a tile business and fire
similar output kilns with no problem through the winter.
John Britt wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
> have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
> about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
> The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
> She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
>
--
Norman van der Sluys
by the shore of Lake Michigan
Louis H.. Katz on wed 18 oct 00
Hi John,
You might call Josh DeWeese at the Archie Bray and ask him. I beleive that thier
~50 cubic foot Sprung arch kiln with Ransome Burners used to fueled by a 500
gallon propane tank. I am not sure if it was ever fired in the winter.
His number is 1-406 443-3502
email is mailto:archiebray@archiebray.org
website:http://www.archiebray.org
I used to fire a fifty cu ft kiln in Rhode Island with two 100 gallon tanks. They
had to be full to fire below 32 degrees.
Also in Rhode Island I worked on the Volunteer fire department and developed a
very healthy respect for propane. I would be wary of burying the tanks unless
professional assistance is used. Propane is heavier than air and on a still day
will collect around a leak or flow along the ground to a depression. It is
explosive in a much greater range of mixtures with air than natural gas.
Louis
John Britt wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
> have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
> about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
> The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
> She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
>
> Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
> Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
> pressure?
>
> She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
> experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt
> Penland
> penlandclay@juno.com
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
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NEW EMAIL ADDRESS Louis.Katz@mail.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director of Electronic Communication and Webmaster(Ad-Hoc)
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts
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Database Online
Anthony Allison on wed 18 oct 00
Dear John,
I live in northern Minnesota where temps fall really low. I fire an eight
burner updraft during the winter, The tank needs to be in the sun during the
day- I would think black paint would help.
I try to fire very early so the firing goes on during the day when it is
warmer and the sun helps. My firings usually last 8-12 hours so i havent had
any problems.
My gas supply man told me to keep snow shoveled away from the tank so the
sun warms the propane during the day. I have never explored the idea of a
tank warmer.
Hope this info helps a little My coldest firing was at 25 below zero. Also,
two tanks coupled together would help if she has problems with her
arrangement.
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: John Britt
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Propane question
>Hello,
>
>I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
>have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
>about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
>The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
>She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
>
>Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
>Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
>pressure?
>
>She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
>experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John Britt
>Penland
>penlandclay@juno.com
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
John Rodgers on wed 18 oct 00
Tony,
Many years ago in Alaska, I had the opportunity to visit in the home of an Alaska
Native family in the community of Grayling on the Yukon River. . It was dead of
winter and very cold. We had dinner, spent some good and enjoyable hours just
talking. One of the family members wanted to know if I wanted to wash up before
bed. I imagined wash water temperature 1/2 degree above freezing, but when the wash
basin was set out, it had warm water. They all laughed at the Chechako. I was shown
that the steel barrel stove had a copper tube wound around it, and because of the
angle it was wound, convective forces caused the water to flow as it was heated and
it flowed into a tub set up on a box.. I had not noticed copper coil. The pleasant
evening fire in the stove had done it's work, lulling me and heating the water
nicely. I cleaned up comfortably and was well refreshed.
The point of this is that the principle of the heating coils could be applied to
warming a propane tank. Copper tubing coiled around the tank with heated water
pumped through the coils could do a lot for raising the temperature of the propane
and make its delivery to the burners a lot more efficient. You would have to use
some sort of heater and circulating pump to heat the water and get it delivered to
the coils, and maybe apply some kind of blanket over the coils on the tank. If you
started circulating the heated water in the coils the day before firing, the
propane should be warmed up nicely buy the time you light off the burners. Of
course you would need antifreeze in the coils, given how cold it gets in winter in
your part of the world.
John Rodgers
Birmingham, AL
Anthony Allison wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> I live in northern Minnesota where temps fall really low. I fire an eight
> burner updraft during the winter, The tank needs to be in the sun during the
> day- I would think black paint would help.
>
> I try to fire very early so the firing goes on during the day when it is
> warmer and the sun helps. My firings usually last 8-12 hours so i havent had
> any problems.
>
> My gas supply man told me to keep snow shoveled away from the tank so the
> sun warms the propane during the day. I have never explored the idea of a
> tank warmer.
>
> Hope this info helps a little My coldest firing was at 25 below zero. Also,
> two tanks coupled together would help if she has problems with her
> arrangement.
>
> Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Britt
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 7:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Propane question
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
> >have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
> >about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
> >The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
> >She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
> >
> >Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
> >Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
> >pressure?
> >
> >She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
> >experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >John Britt
> >Penland
> >penlandclay@juno.com
> >________________________________________________________________
> >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________________
> ___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Dave and Janet Evans on wed 18 oct 00
Regarding propane tanks,
These tanks need to be able to vent. Some effort should be taken to =
keep them free of too much snow, and they should not be buried. =
Differential heating between the piping and snow can form a conduit-like =
tube around the pipe. Vented propane could then inch up the line, =
pooling under the house until it finds an ignition source. A house or =
to a year goes up this way a year in the Sierras. Just take a little =
time, especially after a thick blanketing, wade out to the tank, and dig =
out the vent. Some units do have a vent stack and this should be kept =
clear.
Enjoy your firing,
John Evans in San Diego =20
Garret D. Bonnema on thu 19 oct 00
Hi John,
We live in western Maine. Last fall we went from a 1000 gallon above ground
tank to a 500 gallon buried tank ( to get our backyard back). I was worried
about the smaller tank size. I called the company that built the burners we
use and talked to an engineer. He "did the physics". Maybe your friend can
get someone to do that for the burners they are using.
Here is the report that I recieved from the engineer.
System outline:
Ceramic kiln firing, using two MK-1-SS burners. Operating pressure is to be
set to 2.5 psi.
Each burner is consuming 395,000 btu/h (x2) burners= 790,000 btu/h.
At 2.5 psi, you will burn 8.63 gal/hr. On a 12 hour firing you will burn
103.5 gal.
With a temperature of the propane tank at 20 degrees F, you will be able to
maintain a full firing capacity until you reach 50% liquid in the propane
tank ( approx. 250 gal).
A 500 gal. tank can only store 450 gal. of propane ( 10% head space). From
full to 50%= 200 gal. of fuel. This will give you 23.2 hours of firing at
2.5 psi.
Last winter I always started the firing with a full or nearly full tank and
had no problems. I do a slow firing, nearly 24 hours +/-.
Garret Bonnema
Bethel Maine
ferenc jakab on fri 20 oct 00
>
> I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
> have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
> about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
> The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
> She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
It sounds like the tank will be borderline at those temps. The Gas company
should be able to calculate the draw off if she gives them the btu rating of
the burners. How much she draws(gallons) in an average firing and the time
it takes her to do this. If they can't then she should get another gas
supplier.
Feri.
Mary Irvine on fri 20 oct 00
My art school in New Brunswick, Canada uses a gas kiln with a propane tank
supply (but we're now getting natural gas in a year or so) we fire through
the winter with no problem. The tank is not buried and netiher is the line
into the building and we get alot colder up here than Michigan!
Hope that helps!
Mary
>From: John Britt
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Propane question
>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:25:35 -0300
>
>Hello,
>
>I have a friend who is building a kiln in northern Michigan. She has to
>have a propane tank because there is no city gas. She is a bit worried
>about not having enough gas pressure during the winter. (10 F - 20 F)
>The kiln is a 50 cu. ft. sprung arch powered by 4 B-4 Ranson burners.
>She has a 500 gallon tank that is above ground.
>
>Should she bury the tank? How close should the tank be to the kiln?
>Should the line be buried? Are there tank warmers to keep up the
>pressure?
>
>She has talked to the gas company but didn't think they had a lot of
>experience with potters. That is why we are asking here for advise.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John Britt
>Penland
>penlandclay@juno.com
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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