clennell on mon 6 nov 00
>Tony,
>I would like to know what kind of seconds is it acceptable to sell? Also what
>percentage off? and should there be a permanent mark on the bottom to
>designate it as second? Or can they turn around and sell it without telling
>of the flow?
>Your thoughts please and thanks
>Mayssan
>
>
Mayssan- I have five categories of pots. this I learned in England from
Mick Casson
Racers- the best from the kiln
Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe excessive
crawling of a shino, a shino too black, a little crack under the handle- I
can come up with dozens of reasons that I might decide that these are not
of the first three categories.
Land drains- These are carted off to the landfill site about once a month.
I just sent off a pot to Terry Sullivan. Pot was tumblestacked with about
two feet of pots on top of it. A couple of scars, just like me. Some would
consider it a second, I consider it top drawer. Don't take me down that
road.
Perhaps a second is really only a standard of how good you are. All the
pots I made for the first 10 years I would now deem to be seconds, thirds
and almost certainly land drain.
Off to bed. I've got seconds to make tomorrow.
cheers,
Tony
sour cherry pottery
tony and sheila clennell
4545 king street
beamsville, on.L0R 1B1
www.sourcherrypottery.com
clennell@vaxxine.com
Mayssan1@AOL.COM on mon 6 nov 00
In a message dated 11/6/00 9:56:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
<< Rummage thru our
seconds on every visit. >>
Tony,
I would like to know what kind of seconds is it acceptable to sell? Also what
percentage off? and should there be a permanent mark on the bottom to
designate it as second? Or can they turn around and sell it without telling
of the flow?
Your thoughts please and thanks
Mayssan
in a beautiful day in WV, USA that is
Merrie Boerner on mon 6 nov 00
I sold a very good friend seconds for "her daughter's apartment"......I
found out later that she gave them as wedding presents to my other friend's
children in "small town" Mississippi. I was too embarrassed ! I don't sell
seconds anymore. I will give them to people who love them....with promises
that they will keep them....but I'm very selective. Scars, drips and crusty
spots can become very expensive oddities depending on who wants to
buy...especially with woodfired pots.......get my drift. In fact, what we
might call "buggers" on a pot could be "gifts from the kiln" in another
country...worth $$$
And, as to why people are so cheap.......I have thought about that one
all day. My Mother's father owned a furniture store before the depression.
Then, she gave 5cent haircuts and fed supper scraps to the hobos from the
train which stopped in her town. She still had good taste and generosity
after she married and was well off. The lady who I spoke of in my prier post
(who had the $500000 house and poor taste) did not know the difference
between an original and a print. She would buy anything her decorator said
to buy....the type who will buy from a gallery but not from the artist...I
can't figure them out. This is too broad a spectrum to figure out...it
boggles the mind. I took my wheel to do a demo for the "Climbers Club" (I'm
not kidding) a few weeks ago,,,,thinking all along that I could make big
bucks with these hoity toity women. I set up my display, worked hard, talked
the talk.....all they wanted to know was," I guess you cant have fingernails
if you do that !?!" and "How on earth can you get your nails clean ?"
Needless to say, I sold one pot. To these ladies, my work was
"homemade"....like the dress their poor friend wore to high school and
everyone made fun of it. Some folks will never appreciate the toil of the
hands......their loss.
Merrie
amy parker on tue 7 nov 00
Merrie - the difference for these women is indeed "homemade" vs.
"handmade". Sewn by your Mom, or sewn by an unknown Chanel seamstress. It
is the perception of exclusivity that is important to them. Perhaps if you
had added a decimal point to the price of your pots you would have sold
out! This kind of buyer likes to brag about how much they paid, as opposed
to how much they saved!
Amy, who happens to sew better than most designer shops when I get the urge!
>... I took my wheel to do a demo for the "Climbers Club" (I'm
>not kidding) a few weeks ago,,,,thinking all along that I could make big
>bucks with these hoity toity women. I set up my display, worked hard, talked
>the talk.....all they wanted to know was," I guess you cant have fingernails
>if you do that !?!" and "How on earth can you get your nails clean ?"
>Needless to say, I sold one pot. To these ladies, my work was
>"homemade"....like the dress their poor friend wore to high school and
>everyone made fun of it. Some folks will never appreciate the toil of the
>hands......their loss.
>Merrie
Amy Parker
Lithonia, GA
Norman van der Sluys on tue 7 nov 00
Tony's system has meerit to it, and I think we price in a similar manner, though we
certainly don't label anything as "racers" or "seconds". We do have a sale area,
and that mainly includes items that we are tired of looking at in the showroom.
Twice a year our gallery has a "yart sale" and our seconds go there as a final
stop. We learned long ago that the pot we considered a second because it did not
turn out the way we expected was often the first to be sold! Different strokes for
different folks!
Of course, I don't consider my self as the pottery equivalent of a future Jan
Vermeer. If you think beyond everyday use to the showcase or museum, then you have
a problem and need to be ruthless with the hammer, for the sake of your
ego/potential or actual reputation. My personal take on that is that viewing the
coffee mug you just made as fine art stems from academia's reluctance to include
craft education in the curriculum, but let's not go there again.
As long as the "defect" that makes a piece a second is strictly cosmetic, let the
market place sort it out. If it is a functional flaw use the hammer or put it on a
top shelf in the studio as a reference piece.
clennell wrote:
> >Tony,
> >I would like to know what kind of seconds is it acceptable to sell? Also what
> >percentage off? and should there be a permanent mark on the bottom to
> >designate it as second? Or can they turn around and sell it without telling
> >of the flow?
> >Your thoughts please and thanks
> >Mayssan
> >
> >
> Mayssan- I have five categories of pots. this I learned in England from
> Mick Casson
> Racers- the best from the kiln
> Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
> So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
> Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe excessive
> crawling of a shino, a shino too black, a little crack under the handle- I
> can come up with dozens of reasons that I might decide that these are not
> of the first three categories.
> Land drains- These are carted off to the landfill site about once a month.
>
--
Norman van der Sluys
by the shore of Lake Michigan
Candace Young/Norman Czuchra on wed 8 nov 00
"gallery quality", in
your own mind? Is there hope for me?>
Make what you love and if someone wants to buy it how nice that you have
made something that resonates in another. Everything has a different
perspective over time and be excited that this is work that can only grow
and improve. Of course these pots will be less than the ones you make in
the future, but they will be a map of where you have been and that has
value. Will your pots be better in 10 years? Hope so, and because they
probably will be, that doesn't make the ones you making now worthless. My
mother has some doorstoppers ( casseroles, bowls etc) I made in the 70s
which I thought were great at the time. They are great doorstoppers and
had I been hypercritical about the work from others' perspectives I might
not have continued. Make the work for yourself, know that there will be
better potters than you and worse potters than you, that it doesn't matter
if one's better or not. Admire the good ones, aspire to that level and
make honest pots. Just don't let anything stop you from doing what you
choose.
Its your work and you get to say if its a first. I always consider
pinholing on my pots a flaw. David Shaner does not and he's a respected
potter. There will always be people around who will find flaws, if they
can show you a way to improve, great! listen to them, if they're just
blowing air pay no mind. As far as galleries go, if you're going to stay
a potter, eventually you will have given all the work away you can and you
will be forced to sell the pots so you can continue to make more and
grow. You'll find a forum. Take good workshops as you can find the
time. Afford them even if you have to scrimp. Join a clay guild if you
can and stay involved with clayart keeping in mind that you don't have to
agree with everything said here just as you don't have to agree with
everything in the real world. Good luck.
Candace
>I'm so discouraged. After 2 years of doing pottery (very part-time, by
>necessity of having other full time employment...eg. for bills, groceries),
>everything I have, even the stuff I feel is getting pretty good, would fall
>under the heading of "seconds". I'm not trying to sell, although I have
>had some offers to buy :-)
>
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner on wed 8 nov 00
There is always hope. The learning curve for most people is
directly proportional to natural talent, (some of us have to
work harder than others) and time. I know potters here in
Las Vegas that have made HUGE strides in a year or two.
They squeeze many hours in per week. Others hardly get
enough time to make any progress at all.
Lizacat29@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/7/00 6:43:09 AM Central Standard Time,
> clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
>
> << Racers- the best from the kiln
> Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
> So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
> Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe excessive
> crawling of a shino, a shino too black, a little crack under the handle- I
> can come up with dozens of reasons that I might decide that these are not
> of the first three categories.
> Land drains- These are carted off to the landfill site about once a month.
> >>
> I'm so discouraged. After 2 years of doing pottery (very part-time, by
> necessity of having other full time employment...eg. for bills, groceries),
> everything I have, even the stuff I feel is getting pretty good, would fall
> under the heading of "seconds". I'm not trying to sell, although I have
> had some offers to buy :-)
> So how long did it take people to reach "firsts" or "gallery quality", in
> your own mind? Is there hope for me?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Cindy Strnad on wed 8 nov 00
Hi, Liz.
Most of us who aren't quite as particular about our firsts and seconds and
so on don't enter into this discussion. If I make a bowl and the glaze
doesn't turn out quite the color I intended, guess what? I sell it. Just
because I don't like the color doesn't mean no one else will like it.
Usually someone (usually plenty of someones) will fall in love with it.
Now, if it has a crack in the base or is full of pinholes or if the rim is
obviously off-round, then it's a second--well, no, it's studio equipment,
actually. Or I might give it to a friend for a dog dish or something.
But no, Liza, please don't get discouraged. This is a growing process. If
you love your pots, then someone else will, too. At the very least, they'll
save you money on Christmas presents. If you can't get them round,
then alter them--make them off-round on purpose. And the more you make, the
better you'll become until, yes, the pots you adore today may seem less than
adequate to you in the future.
But don't worry about that now. It will come naturally and on its own. Be
where you are, and enjoy the journey--you'll never be here again, will you?
Don't bother comparing yourself with people who've been doing pottery for 30
years. It's too, too discouraging, and it's not an accurate comparison. If I
compared myself to David and Mel and Vince and Dannon and Elizabeth and Tony
and many more, I'd give up right now.
Have fun.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
earthenv@gwtc.net
http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
vince pitelka on wed 8 nov 00
> So how long did it take people to reach "firsts" or "gallery quality", in
> your own mind? Is there hope for me?
Lizacat -
Relax. Keep making pots. As many as you can. When I look back at the pots
I sold in my first few studio sales in the early 1970s, I feel that most of
them should have been relegated to the seconds shelf or the shard pile. But
they sure sold well, and I never had a single complaint. So it may just be
the context in which you are viewing your pots. We are often bad judges of
our own work. Whenver possible, be proud of what you have accomplished, and
work hard to keep getting better.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
WHew536674@CS.COM on wed 8 nov 00
Liz (?),
How long does it take to reach professional quality? That's pretty
subjective. It's little goals along the way, i.e., I want to perfect that
shape, or that glaze. Eventually it happens. On to the next shape to
perfect, or next glaze. I doubt that I will ever reach the professional
quality I am looking for, because I keep raising the bar. It's a life time
quest. And thank goodness. When one reaches a goal, what's the nest
question? "Wow, I did that, now where I go from here?"
Joyce A
Lizacat29@AOL.COM on wed 8 nov 00
In a message dated 11/7/00 6:43:09 AM Central Standard Time,
clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
<< Racers- the best from the kiln
Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe excessive
crawling of a shino, a shino too black, a little crack under the handle- I
can come up with dozens of reasons that I might decide that these are not
of the first three categories.
Land drains- These are carted off to the landfill site about once a month.
>>
I'm so discouraged. After 2 years of doing pottery (very part-time, by
necessity of having other full time employment...eg. for bills, groceries),
everything I have, even the stuff I feel is getting pretty good, would fall
under the heading of "seconds". I'm not trying to sell, although I have
had some offers to buy :-)
So how long did it take people to reach "firsts" or "gallery quality", in
your own mind? Is there hope for me?
Lizacat29@AOL.COM on wed 8 nov 00
In a message dated 11/7/00 6:43:09 AM Central Standard Time,
clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
<< All the
pots I made for the first 10 years I would now deem to be seconds, thirds
and almost certainly land drain. >>
Well, there you go, I just popped off a question before reading the rest of
the post. Ten years....but I'd like to hear other people's ideas about how
long it took to reach professional quality in their work.
Frederich, Tim on thu 9 nov 00
Somebody once asked Hamada if he knew it all after working in clay for 55
years and he replied that he was still learning every day. This is how I
feel. After 35 years I still make my share of seconds each day, but I would
not stop the learning process since clay has become a part of me that cannot
be separated. Just keep on working and each day will have it's little
treasure and bit of pleasure.
Best regards,
Tim Frederich
-----Original Message-----
From: Lizacat29@AOL.COM [mailto:Lizacat29@AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:59 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Why??? & about seconds
In a message dated 11/7/00 6:43:09 AM Central Standard Time,
clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
<< Racers- the best from the kiln
Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe excessive
crawling of a shino, a shino too black, a little crack under the handle- I
can come up with dozens of reasons that I might decide that these are not
of the first three categories.
Land drains- These are carted off to the landfill site about once a month.
>>
I'm so discouraged. After 2 years of doing pottery (very part-time, by
necessity of having other full time employment...eg. for bills,
groceries),
everything I have, even the stuff I feel is getting pretty good, would fall
under the heading of "seconds". I'm not trying to sell, although I have
had some offers to buy :-)
So how long did it take people to reach "firsts" or "gallery quality", in
your own mind? Is there hope for me?
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Diane Mead on thu 9 nov 00
Earl is right. I was selling as soon as I started making in the 70's. I was
young and had too much energy and lots of time. Now I have neither and a
full-time (plus) job and still raisin' college age kids.
If you really want this to happen--the Racers--I believe it will. Your
desire to have that happen seems to be the greatest indicator of success in
good art. My experience. (And if God doesn't give me a break pretty
soon--time and energy-wise, I'll realize that the decades that went before
were an anomaly, and I'll quit! Who knows at this point.I'll find out for
sure in about 20 years.)
>Earl Brunner wrote
>There is always hope. The learning curve for most people is
>directly proportional to natural talent, (some of us have to
>work harder than others) and time.
>
>Lizacat29@AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11/7/00 6:43:09 AM Central Standard Time,
> > clennell@VAXXINE.COM writes:
> >
> > << Racers- the best from the kiln
> > Firsts- gallery quality- you're proud of them
> > So-whats- it's a pot "so what"
> > Seconds- small blemishes, a slight warp to body or lid, maybe > So how
>long did it take people to reach "firsts" or "gallery quality", in
> > your own mind?
Is there hope for me?
> >
> >
>
>--
>Earl Brunner
>http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
>mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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amy parker on thu 9 nov 00
When I was learning to race my 'Vette, we had a saying that if you don't
spin out pretty often, you aren't trying hard enough.
Amy, with dust on the Vette & none on the kiln!
At 08:15 AM 11/9/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Somebody once asked Hamada if he knew it all after working in clay for 55
>years and he replied that he was still learning every day. This is how I
>feel. After 35 years I still make my share of seconds each day, but I would
>not stop the learning process since clay has become a part of me that cannot
>be separated. Just keep on working and each day will have it's little
>treasure and bit of pleasure.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Tim Frederich
>
Amy Parker
Lithonia, GA
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