priddy on wed 8 nov 00
vince pitelka wrote:
> This list includes people working at every stage of experience and
> I have something to say which I direct to myself as well as t everyone
> Don't be so goddamn reactionary and opinionated. Your way ain't the on=
> way, no matter how famous your teacher was. Open your mind and your ey=
I would like to agree with him and add this:
I know many potters and their pedigrees. Just because you =
had a good teacher does not mean you were a worthy student! =
Don't brag about your teachers as they might not want to claim you.
If your teacher wants to claim you, they will.
I am extremely proud of my teachers and sometimes =
I mention what I have studied as background for others =
in case they are wondering where I am coming from, =
but I try not to mention names. Many of my teachers =
claim me, but I wouldn't go around tossing their names =
lightly. It is rude, at least where I am from.
Also where I am from, you refer to older unrelated =
but familiar friends with "Mr" or "Miss" and their =
first name. Until they tell you its all right to =
call them by name, =
ie "just elizabeth is fine, honey/sug/dear" =
I called my uncle like family friend Mr Adolph =
until the day he died as he ws 50 years older than =
me and it NEVER became appropriate for me to address =
him by his first name. I loved him dearly and one of =
his last acts was to take a sip of "peach brandy" from =
a small whiskey jug I made him. His eldest son has that =
jug now, it still holds "peach brandy" from what I know,
speaking of legacy pots.
When I meet mel at nceca, i will probably address =
him as mr mel, and since he is old, he will probably =
not even blink.
and what does "SAN" mean? seriously, I have always =
wondered but never had the mindfulness to ask. People =
seem to apply it liberally in japanese culture and =
I can't get it clear from context. I get the gist =
is is something like "mr and miss" but I cannot be sure.
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
Martin Howard on thu 9 nov 00
but familiar friends with "Mr" or "Miss" and their
first name. Until they tell you its all right to
call them by name,
ie "just elizabeth is fine, honey/sug/dear" >
Be careful about this. Quakers have a concern for equality and have extended
this to mean no use of titles. Mr, Mrs, Ms are titles, albeit of a low
level, and therefore are objected to by many Quakers, Friends.
So, if someone gives you the name as First Name, Second Name, then respond
in the same way.
We have no right to change someone's name as given to us by them, even if it
seems to conform to the local general method of addressing such a person. To
a Quaker it can feel insulting.
If in doubt about a name (my memory for names is hopeless), then I just call
them , until instructed or some clue is dropped to lead me
Capital F for Quakers, lower case for others.
It does seem to bring a warmth to the conversation.
It could apply on pots as well but be careful of the spelling.
Fiend has been used at times, with unintended results.
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
PurpleLama@AOL.COM on sat 11 nov 00
In a message dated 11/9/00 1:21:45 AM, martin@WEBBSCOTTAGE.CO.UK writes:
<< If in doubt about a name (my memory for names is hopeless), then I just
them , until instructed or some clue is dropped to lead me
What a great idea. I, too, have a problem remembering names. I'm afraid that
I would not feel comfortable calling a person friend, especially my business
acquaintances whose names I don't remember. (I'm considered unusual enough as
is, calling a person friend would just increase that perception even more.)
But, if more people adopted that convention and my using it would not stand
out so much, I would be very happy.
Thanks for the idea.
Redondo Beach, California USA
Martin Howard on sun 12 nov 00
Shula, all I can say is it works over here.
They do not know that I am a Quaker, or the Quaker thing about titles.
But they have all accepted it and not one has, so far, objected in any way.
Why not try it. You might be pleasantly surprised.
They might consider you less distant and more one of them even :-) for all
your other differences.
Paul Taylor on mon 13 nov 00
> Also where I am from, you refer to older unrelated
> but familiar friends with "Mr" or "Miss" and their
> first name. Until they tell you its all right to
> call them by name,
> ie "just elizabeth is fine, honey/sug/dear"
> I called my uncle like family friend Mr Adolph
Dear Elizabeth and all
We live in Strange times The culture of the world is in our living rooms
I find the whole thing rather awesome in it's confusion and a little
exiting. Is this our last chance to link into an old way. The distinctive
cultures of the world are becoming extinct all we will be left with is a
mono culture with the shadows of the indigenous.
The excitement is ,that I can take up any culture and with study practice
and sincerity I can be almost indistinguishable form the original tradition.
The study is the most difficult I will have to go through the "cartoon stage
ethnic" to come out absorbed into the culture I have chosen. It will never
be the same because there is no same to be. There are many foreigners here
playing and singing traditional irish music yet no indigenous traditional
musician would criticize them, because they are too busy pinching ideas from
other cultures themselves. We get a few complaints when we sing songs that
are obviously american country but That is the price you pay for a living
tradition - change.
Manners - Yet more cultural confusion.
Where I live we all call everybody by their christian names . If you are
not used to it can be very disconcertingly. Even when being booked for
speeding the Garder (policeman) is going to call me Paul and not as in
England Mr Taylor - This is a republic.
I was brought up in England where formality rules evey body was calles mr
of mrs, but on trips to see distant Welsh relatives I had to call any body
who was slightly wrinkled uncle or auntie.
I now enjoy living in a place with a strong culture but including many
Europeans. It is true that foreigners living here become more Irish than the
I like the way some americans ( southeners) call me sir they can do it
sincerely with out a hint of sarcasm. For a while I thought they were
winding me up, but now I know it to be sincere, I find the good manners of
it gets ten percent off any purchase in my show room.
And the cultural bull that is pottery
The antecedence of my pottery training goes back to the middle ages. That
sounds good but it is meaning less. On the way all sots of thing happened to
the pottery tradition in england - mostly bad . We have had to revive it. It
is not the same but alive . In ireland there is no pottery tradition to
speak off. We had to invent it- Great fun .
If you are at all inquisitive you only have to see something done once to
know it is possible for you to do yourself with practice and as I have said
before a textbook.
I can attribute some of my worst work to the influence of the best potters
I have studied under. The best teacher is the fellow that shows you where he
comes from not just where he is. Blood
So i think manners is an art form probably the most underrated and the one
that causes most trouble between people and nations.
The question is what titles and approaches do you give and receive in this
multi cultured world. Do you remember the heated discretion Janet and I had
over Masters, because Janet and I could read each other culturally we did
not get offended at each others forthrightness.
I wonder what I would do called upon to call some arrogant over blown
"master" Sensay, would I go to his culture or stay true to my republican
nature. I expect if I wanted something from the old "fart" I would call him
what he wanted to be called - the social grace of hypocrisy.
Yet in the days when I was most anarchical in my politics (my first
pottery), the rural development officer for Norfolk was Major Langley. He
was so cultured and well mannered I found myself quite un bidden calling him
Regards from Paul Taylor
Janet Kaiser on tue 14 nov 00
My young cousin uses the courtesy title "Auntie
Janet" when he wants to wind me up. When someone
addresses me as "Mrs. Kaiser" it makes me feel
like the cleaner/janitor, but when someone calls
me "Frau Kaiser" it does not. Frau is not an
indication of marital status, it is merely a
courtesy title given to all women over the age
of 18. "Fraulein" is very rare indeed beyond
school age, unless a grown woman wants her
unmarried and virginal state to be publicly
known and recognised.
But then the modern English "you" is for
everyone, having long forgotten about "thee" and
"thou" (except in the North of England). Whilst
in languages like French, German, Welsh, etc.
where there is a distinction between the polite
form of you: vous/Sie/chi and the familiar:
tu/Du/ti - it certainly helps to keep within
those margins of linguistic respect.
> Do you remember the heated discussion Janet
and I had
> over Masters, because Janet and I could read
each other culturally we did
> not get offended at each others
And because Paul and I can read each other's
cultural signs and signals without
misinterpreting or wanting to take offence, it
remained a simple discussion and not a slanging
match with hysterical and irrevelant outbursts.
Each was giving and taking, even approaching
some sort of accord in a civil and civilised
way. No one retreating in a huff to sulk and
think dark thoughts on each other's parentage.
This sort of rancour only enters when people
purposely antagonise each other or the one
cannot read what is actually being said versus
what they think is being said or want to hear.
False or distorted reading between the lines.
(Norman v.d. Sluys wrote an excellent post on
this very subject some time ago, which I could
not hope to emmulate).
There is another Paul on this list, who thinks I
am always rude and abrasive. He is unable to
apply wider parameters, when talking to others
not from the same social group. He probably
suffers from the same disadvantage when (if
ever) he visits the other side of the tracks,
let alone if he is one of the 20% who own a
passport. I find this sad, but on the whole it
is his problem and not mine.
The worst of all, is carefully contrieved and
pointed rudeness which is politely written. It
usually passes the majority without comment,
because it has been so cunningly composed, only
the one or one group it is aimed at will catch
the full meaning. What is the point of
apparently being polite, when kicking someone in
the balls as hard as you possibly can? It is
dishonest and extremely undignified. Why hide
behind convention? Why not be plain speaking,
forthright and robust? It is possible without
being patently rude. Or are you secretly ashamed
of what you are saying and therefore couch it in
Anything said with intent to hurt, belittle,
scorn and wound is undignified at the very
least. What appears as gentle mockery to me,
could appear to be all of these things to
someone else. But not only are they not on the
same wave-length in that case, they would also
have to be in the mind-set to _want_ to be
insulted. Permanently programmed to think "it's
him/her again - how is he/she going to
insult/hurt/belittle me today".
The socially inept are always going to be in
this mind-set. Just shows their deep insecurity
and inability to take their proper part in the
rough-and-tumble of life. They probably were the
ones who stood in the corner of the play ground
at school, never took part in debates and had a
narrow little clique of friends. I truly feel
very sorry for them.
Misogynists come in all shapes and sizes, some
in sheep's clothing. The strange thing is, I
have never heard of anyone who has not had at
least one friend. Someone, somewhere will like,
presumably respect and even love the worst
monster. Look at Mrs. Stalin or Eva Braun...
So, if a mere title is going to be the most
important unit for measuring respect, who knows
where it will lead? You too could end up with a
similar situation to the prevailing and quite
ridiculous Austrian convention of addressing
your much dis-respected but highly qualified
ceramics professor as Mr. Professor Dr. Dr. XYZ
and his wife (who has no title in her own right)
as Mrs. Professor Dr. Dr. XYZ ---Yes indeed, I
kid you not! I have met several such matrons,
who absolutely insisted. Needless to say, they
earned little respect by their attitude.
"Master" is also a title still used for school
boys in the UK, albeit just for addressing
envelopes. Although some teachers use it when
being factitious. It therefore prevents using
Master as a form of address for a master
craftsman including a master potter, who
otherwise has no high academic title. A shame
really, because unlike some other professions,
all crafts lack a proper or distinguished title
to use for addressing those one really does
respect... "Master Mel" would be rather a
fetching title, don't you think?
Strangely here, in this part of Wales, several
medical practitioners are addressed by their
first name... i.e. Dr. Tudor and Dr. Helen (both
Jones). It simply saves confusion.
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
Linfield College on tue 14 nov 00
> the prevailing and quite
> ridiculous Austrian convention of addressing
> your much dis-respected but highly qualified
> ceramics professor as Mr. Professor Dr. Dr. XYZ
> and his wife (who has no title in her own right)
> as Mrs. Professor Dr. Dr. XYZ ---Yes indeed, I
> kid you not! I have met several such matrons,
> who absolutely insisted.......
Not just there. In lots of (at least) small towns of
Texas many doctors (or professors) wives are introduced
as "Mrs. Doctor Whatsis", or "Mrs. Reverend/Parson Whosis".
I don't believe that I've ever heard the opposite, though.
Far from being offended, I am bemused, and amused,
by colloquial differences. But then, I'm not all
that easy to offend, even when offense is obviously meant.