Bret Hinsch on tue 12 dec 00
All this talk about what is and isn't "real" jade raises the interesting
problem of translating concepts between different cultures. Lots of the
concepts that Western potters use come from Asia. But we should be careful
not to assume that people in Asia and the West classify things the same way.
Jade is a great example. The Chinese word for jade is yu. Although the
dictionary says that jade = yu, in fact the two are somewhat different. Yu
is much broader than jade - the Chinese term covers jadeite, nephrite, and
anything else that looks remotely jade-like.
Porcelain is another strange case. The Chinese word for porcelain is
supposedly ci (tz'u). But in fact, ci and porcelain are different
categories. The Western definition of porcelain usually emphasizes body
type and firing temperature, so it is much more specific and precise.
Chinese define ci much more broadly as anything remotely porcelain-like.
For example, Chinese consider most of those fine Song dynasty imperial wares
to be ci ("porcelain"), while Westerners consider them stoneware.
Strangest of all, there isn't a Chinese word for clay. Whereas Western
languages tend to divide earth into several different categories like soil
and clay, in Chinese there is no distinction. Soil and clay are both called
tu. Not having a Chinese word for clay can be very inconvenient sometimes.
There are also colors that exist in Chinese but not in English. The color
qing (ch'ing) can be either blue or green, but Chinese consider them the
same thing. Green grass and blue sky are both qing. It's hard for me to
comprehend how blue and green can be considered the same color.
The lesson to us all is - be careful when reading about concepts from other
cultures. The categories people in each culture use to think about basic
concepts are often very different. Translations of terms from other pottery
traditions are often very imprecise and sometimes even misleading.
Bret
in Taipei where the sky is currently not qing
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Michael A. Turton on wed 13 dec 00
>
>
> Porcelain is another strange case. The Chinese word for porcelain is
> supposedly ci (tz'u). But in fact, ci and porcelain are different
> categories. The Western definition of porcelain usually emphasizes body
> type and firing temperature, so it is much more specific and precise.
> Chinese define ci much more broadly as anything remotely porcelain-like.
> For example, Chinese consider most of those fine Song dynasty imperial wares
> to be ci ("porcelain"), while Westerners consider them stoneware.
>
> Strangest of all, there isn't a Chinese word for clay. Whereas Western
> languages tend to divide earth into several different categories like soil
> and clay, in Chinese there is no distinction. Soil and clay are both called
> tu. Not having a Chinese word for clay can be very inconvenient sometimes.
>
> There are also colors that exist in Chinese but not in English. The color
> qing (ch'ing) can be either blue or green, but Chinese consider them the
> same thing. Green grass and blue sky are both qing. It's hard for me to
> comprehend how blue and green can be considered the same color.
>
> The lesson to us all is - be careful when reading about concepts from other
> cultures. The categories people in each culture use to think about basic
> concepts are often very different. Translations of terms from other pottery
> traditions are often very imprecise and sometimes even misleading.
>
> Bret
> in Taipei where the sky is currently not qing
Bret, where are you getting this? I translate videos on collecting Chinese porcelain
for a multimedia company. First, Chinese has several words for clay, never mind
technical
terms. It is true that "tu" is a general term that stands for either clay or soil, but
in
context it can never be confusing (they don't mold soil and fire it in kilns). In any
case, pottery clay is "tau tu", modeling clay is "nien tu" etc, etc etc. It's usually
pretty clear.
Song Dynasty wares are considered porcelain, not stoneware. Check out the Jun Ware
exhibition at the National Palace Museum, which was going on when I left Taipei
in July and might still be there. In fact, check out any Song Wares up there, you'll
find they are described as porcelains. They are true porcelain by any standard,
high-fired, highly vitrified, etc.
"Ci" is merely a general term and does not mean "porcelain" necessarily. It is
understood
that way only as shorthand and in context. Like most Chinese words, it must be
used in conjunction with another word to nail down its meaning -- "ci chi" pottery, "tao
ci"
porcelain, or "ci zhuan" tile, etc.
You are right about "qing," however. I usually make the video company I work for
send me a copy of the video, so I can see what color they are referring to!
Translations from other pottery traditions are not necessarily "very imprecise and
sometimes even misleading." That depends on the quality of the translator.
Michael Turton
Freelance Translator
Snail Scott on wed 13 dec 00
At 07:34 AM 12/13/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> There are also colors that exist in Chinese but not in English. The color
>> qing (ch'ing) can be either blue or green, but Chinese consider them the
>> same thing. Green grass and blue sky are both qing. It's hard for me to
>> comprehend how blue and green can be considered the same color.
This is not so weird. In English, the word for 'orange'
didn't exist until to the Renaissance, and yes, it
was named for the fruit. It's not even a true 'color
word'. Prior to this, colors halfway between red and
yellow were considered to be one or the other, depending
on what they were closer to. After all, we don't have
a special word for purplish-blue, or bluish-green, do
we? (No, 'violet' and 'turquoise' don't count. Like
'orange' did originally, they simply reference a natural
object which has the same hue.) Where we 'draw the line'
for each color name is pretty arbitrary, and culturally
variable. The spectrum, after all, is continuous.
The anthropology and linguistics of color words is
rather interesting. In cultures with very few 'color
words', the ones which most commonly appear are words
for 'red' or 'yellow' - colors which are rare in the
natural environment, and worth commenting on. The last
color words added to language are generally words for
blue, green, and brown - the colors which are common in
nature. Subdivisions of color categories occur gradually.
Linguistic anthropologists draw fairly arbitrary
lines to denote when a word becomes an abstract 'color
word' and not just a reference to a thing of that color.
In English, 'orange' is considered to have made that
change, but 'violet' hasn't yet, for instance. Still,
even in English, the word for 'green' derives from the
Indo-European root meaning 'grass'.
-Snail
| |
|
