Ron Collins on mon 1 jan 01
Re-reading CM, Dec., 1989, Warren MacKenzie explained his reasons for his
reasonable prices and philosophy...his letter stated:
"When I sell through exhibitions and galleries, the price of my pots
must reflect gallery overhead, but I will not agree to justify these
galleries in charging their prices at my own showroom. Anyone who comes
here and wraps his own pots deserves to purchase at a price that reflects
that situation. I am always surprised at potters who agree never to
undersell a gallery price, even if the gallery is in the middle of the
high-rent district of a large city and the potter has much lower expenses.
It is the gallery owner's choice of location and he must charge for it."
Conversely, someone the other day wrote a comment here, and said
basically, that if it is a $50 pot in the gallery, and it has that value,
then it is a $50 pot, regardless of where it is sold, and that she was
insulted if someone expected to pay less away from the gallery. This point
of view has validity also.
Although I know that the topic must have been done to death here, I
would appreciate the thoughts, in 25 words or less, not philosophically, but
what you actually do, of knowledgeable, experienced clayartists, who have
strangers/students (not family/close friends) come to their studio/show
room/display area. I live now in a very different part of the world, not
just geographically, but culturally-so different from Texas and am at a
crossroads where I must defend my position. I have one, but it feels a
little shaky, as there are two sides and there is no black and white. and I
need to take a firmer stand. Melinda
julie johnston on tue 2 jan 01
>From what i understand Mackenzie's approach is to make good functional
pottery that is accessable to ordinary people. He produces mostly smaller
pieces that are made quickly and directly. Most of them don't seem to be
terribly labor intensive. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, I just
heard him speak at arrowmont this fall and he discused his pricing briefly.
i assume that his income after retirement would include his retirement pay
check. He rarely does workshops now so I don't know about that. It was just
something that he said. He also mentioned that he was aquainted with Lucy
Rie and that in discussing the issue with her he thought that her prices
were more than justified considering the time she put into them. Clary
Illian's prices are probably as low as Mackenzie's and I don't think she was
a university professor. Who knows? I respect most anybody who makes a living
making good pots.
----------
>From: mudlark
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Mackenzie/Pricing
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 7:00 PM
>
>So what's his philosophy and method of production that makes his pots so
>inexpensive.
>Did his income include the workshops? Was that including his retirement?
>I do respect him and I may not totally understand his math on this. Fill me in.
>
>julie johnston wrote:
>
>> Mackenzie's prices have little to do with his teaching job. When Mackenzie
>> retired and was able to make pots full-time his income doubled. His prices
>> are a reflection of his philosophy and his method of production.
>> ----------
>> >From: mudlark
>> >To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> >Subject: Re: Mackenzie/Pricing
>> >Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 11:23 AM
>> >
>>
>> >And may I add that Warren Mackenzie doesn't really need to sell pots to get by.
>> >He has had a day job and probably now retirement for ever. Are you going to use
>> >his standards on this to do the math of pricing?
>> >If you sell for less you just might be saying that it's worth less. Or it could
>> >say that you just don't need the money.
>> >
>> >Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Melinda!
>> >> In my opinion (note disclaimer!) there is one rule of pricing -- what
>> >> the market will bear is the maximum you can charge. You can always charge
>> >> less, but not more. Corollary: as your price rises the market (volume sold)
>> >> shrinks.
>> >> Warren Mackenzie can undersell his galleries. You or I may not be able
>> >> to. Mr. Mackenzie, from what I hear, can't make enough pots to keep up with
>> >> demand. When you are in that enviable position, you too can do what you
>> >> want with your pricing.
>> >> I do not undersell my wholesale customers' retail prices.
>> >> Dave Finkelnburg in chilly southern Idaho where the fog this morning
>> >> is beautifully frozen on last summer's sunflowers
>> >>
>> >> ______________________________________________________________________________
>> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >>
>> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >>
>> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >
>> >______________________________________________________________________________
>> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >
>> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >
>> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________________
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Malone & Dean McRaine on tue 2 jan 01
Aloha All, I guess my "position" on the pricing issue is "Whatever the
market will bear." I support myself and my wife from my pottery making and
I feel that earning your daily bread from pots is a basic requirement if
you want to address this issue. We're talking about money here.
Philosophy is secondary if have decided to sell pots rather than get a real
job. I sell through my showroom here at my studio and through several gift
shops on the island (Kauai). My showroom prices are less than store
prices. If I wholesale a vase to a store (as part of an order) for $20
they'll usually sell it for about $45. I'll sell it here for $32-35. I've
been raising my studio prices lately and it doesn't seem to make a lot of
difference in my sales and it's great to make more money, feel better about
myself, etc. But this wasn't always true. I think in the last 3-4 years my
work has gotten to a strong enough professional level that it can bring a
higher price. The better your pots are the more choices you have about how
you sell them and how much you ask. Warren MacKenzie could double his
prices tomorrow and probably not hurt his sales very much. For less
auspiscious personages such as me that would probably not be a good idea.
When I was more of an intermediate potter I always felt that a few dollars
in price made a big difference. I was mostly selling at craft shows then.
I also think that it can be hard to have an enticing presentation at a
show. It's not for some artists but it was for me. It can be hard to
project quality. The whole setup is impermanent. Stores, galleries, and
studio showrooms all communicate quality and permanence and customers will
pay for that. Selling from the studio is the best for me. Making pottery
is like magic for most people and if they can meet me, look around my
studio and maybe see me throw a pot it's a signifigant experience for them,
meaningful and memorable-and guess what, they want to take home a piece of
my work. I always keep some clay ready to throw so I can do a quick demo
for a customer especially if they have kids. My overhead in the studio is
not anywhere near what a store has to deal with so it seems appropriate for
their prices to be higher. My customers make special effort to go out of
their way to come see me personally, and they know why stores cost more.
It's a good selling point, too. I'm often asked if I sell through other
outlets and I always say "yes, but of course the stores have to charge
more." On the other hand if somebody comes to my studio they get my most
valuable commodity-me. I have to balance my salesman time with my
production time. My time is my biggest expense and if I give it to a
customer I need to be paid for it or my income will suffer. I deal with
people who are on vacation and some think that everybody in Hawaii is on
vacation too and some of them are major talkers. 10 20-minute conversations
in a day and half my work day is gone. I like to talk but I try to keep my
hands busy at the same time. My productivity is definitely less on days
when I have a lot of customers. I have an apprentice now and one of her
jobs is to work with customers so I don't have to do them all. It helps a
lot. Of course if somebody's going to walk out with a couple of hundred
dollars worth of pots I'm more likely to spend a little time with them. So
I think you have to assess the strengths of your current situation and do
the best you can. If you're lucky and good you'll still be in business
next New Year.
Blessings,
Dean
http://www.kauaifoods.com/clients/shop_lightwave.html
ASHPOTS@AOL.COM on tue 2 jan 01
Howdy,ive been pricing my pots as i was the customer. I have been selling
almost out at shows even the studio tour that happened in Dec.I wholesaled a
bunch to "Plum Nelly Shop" in Chattanooga before X-Mas and i went to see how
they displayed them. I walked around looking for them and couldn't find any.
I finally asked if they were still in the back.It turns out they sold very
well.
I make a lot of stuff that is easy for me to make, like bowls and platters
ect.I dont have lots of time in each piece. I also make vases that are made
with 3 to 5 parts and take a few days to do.They are more exspensive and i
dont wholesale them.
I fire my Gas Kiln and it used to cost me about $40. Mark Ward helped me
figure that out. I was paying $1.05 for propane. Well the newest price here
is $1.90. I will have to adjust my price.
Istill want to build a wood/gas/salt kiln. i think i mite start as soon as i
can pour a pad when it warms up.
I still have a problem with the cold when it is in the 20's. I am from Miami
where cold was 45 degrees.
Also i have need a roomate at NCECA i have a room in the Adams Mark.
Happy New Year
Capt Mark
Lookout Mountain Pottery
3005 Plum Nelly Rd
Rising Fawn Ga 30738
Dave Finkelnburg on tue 2 jan 01
Hi Melinda!
In my opinion (note disclaimer!) there is one rule of pricing -- what
the market will bear is the maximum you can charge. You can always charge
less, but not more. Corollary: as your price rises the market (volume sold)
shrinks.
Warren Mackenzie can undersell his galleries. You or I may not be able
to. Mr. Mackenzie, from what I hear, can't make enough pots to keep up with
demand. When you are in that enviable position, you too can do what you
want with your pricing.
I do not undersell my wholesale customers' retail prices.
Dave Finkelnburg in chilly southern Idaho where the fog this morning
is beautifully frozen on last summer's sunflowers
mudlark on tue 2 jan 01
And may I add that Warren Mackenzie doesn't really need to sell pots to get by.
He has had a day job and probably now retirement for ever. Are you going to use
his standards on this to do the math of pricing?
If you sell for less you just might be saying that it's worth less. Or it could
say that you just don't need the money.
Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> Hi Melinda!
> In my opinion (note disclaimer!) there is one rule of pricing -- what
> the market will bear is the maximum you can charge. You can always charge
> less, but not more. Corollary: as your price rises the market (volume sold)
> shrinks.
> Warren Mackenzie can undersell his galleries. You or I may not be able
> to. Mr. Mackenzie, from what I hear, can't make enough pots to keep up with
> demand. When you are in that enviable position, you too can do what you
> want with your pricing.
> I do not undersell my wholesale customers' retail prices.
> Dave Finkelnburg in chilly southern Idaho where the fog this morning
> is beautifully frozen on last summer's sunflowers
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
julie johnston on tue 2 jan 01
Mackenzie's prices have little to do with his teaching job. When Mackenzie
retired and was able to make pots full-time his income doubled. His prices
are a reflection of his philosophy and his method of production.
----------
>From: mudlark
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Mackenzie/Pricing
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 11:23 AM
>
>And may I add that Warren Mackenzie doesn't really need to sell pots to get by.
>He has had a day job and probably now retirement for ever. Are you going to use
>his standards on this to do the math of pricing?
>If you sell for less you just might be saying that it's worth less. Or it could
>say that you just don't need the money.
>
>Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
>
>> Hi Melinda!
>> In my opinion (note disclaimer!) there is one rule of pricing -- what
>> the market will bear is the maximum you can charge. You can always charge
>> less, but not more. Corollary: as your price rises the market (volume sold)
>> shrinks.
>> Warren Mackenzie can undersell his galleries. You or I may not be able
>> to. Mr. Mackenzie, from what I hear, can't make enough pots to keep up with
>> demand. When you are in that enviable position, you too can do what you
>> want with your pricing.
>> I do not undersell my wholesale customers' retail prices.
>> Dave Finkelnburg in chilly southern Idaho where the fog this morning
>> is beautifully frozen on last summer's sunflowers
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________________
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Snail Scott on tue 2 jan 01
>Melinda-
>
>I will never undersell my gallery, ever. That sort of thing
>gets around, and you can lose your reputation as an ethical
>businessperson. Maybe big names like MacKenzie can get away
>with it, but I won't risk it. If a person comes to my studio
>because they saw my work at the gallery, or saw advertising
>that the gallery helped pay for, then the gallery gets their cut,
>as per the contract. If the person did not find out about my work
>through the gallery, I give the gallery no percentage, but I won't
>drop my price either.
> -Snail
>
>
>
>At 08:50 PM 1/1/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>Re-reading CM, Dec., 1989, Warren MacKenzie explained his reasons for his
>>reasonable prices and philosophy...his letter stated:
>> "When I sell through exhibitions and galleries, the price of my pots
>>must reflect gallery overhead, but I will not agree to justify these
>>galleries in charging their prices at my own showroom. Anyone who comes
>>here and wraps his own pots deserves to purchase at a price that reflects
>>that situation. I am always surprised at potters who agree never to
>>undersell a gallery price, even if the gallery is in the middle of the
>>high-rent district of a large city and the potter has much lower expenses.
>>It is the gallery owner's choice of location and he must charge for it."
>> Conversely, someone the other day wrote a comment here, and said
>>basically, that if it is a $50 pot in the gallery, and it has that value,
>>then it is a $50 pot, regardless of where it is sold, and that she was
>>insulted if someone expected to pay less away from the gallery. This point
>>of view has validity also.
>> Although I know that the topic must have been done to death here, I
>>would appreciate the thoughts, in 25 words or less, not philosophically, but
>>what you actually do, of knowledgeable, experienced clayartists, who have
>>strangers/students (not family/close friends) come to their studio/show
>>room/display area. I live now in a very different part of the world, not
>>just geographically, but culturally-so different from Texas and am at a
>>crossroads where I must defend my position. I have one, but it feels a
>>little shaky, as there are two sides and there is no black and white. and I
>>need to take a firmer stand. Melinda
>>
mudlark on tue 2 jan 01
So what's his philosophy and method of production that makes his pots so inexpensive.
Did his income include the workshops? Was that including his retirement?
I do respect him and I may not totally understand his math on this. Fill me in.
julie johnston wrote:
> Mackenzie's prices have little to do with his teaching job. When Mackenzie
> retired and was able to make pots full-time his income doubled. His prices
> are a reflection of his philosophy and his method of production.
> ----------
> >From: mudlark
> >To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >Subject: Re: Mackenzie/Pricing
> >Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 11:23 AM
> >
>
> >And may I add that Warren Mackenzie doesn't really need to sell pots to get by.
> >He has had a day job and probably now retirement for ever. Are you going to use
> >his standards on this to do the math of pricing?
> >If you sell for less you just might be saying that it's worth less. Or it could
> >say that you just don't need the money.
> >
> >Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Melinda!
> >> In my opinion (note disclaimer!) there is one rule of pricing -- what
> >> the market will bear is the maximum you can charge. You can always charge
> >> less, but not more. Corollary: as your price rises the market (volume sold)
> >> shrinks.
> >> Warren Mackenzie can undersell his galleries. You or I may not be able
> >> to. Mr. Mackenzie, from what I hear, can't make enough pots to keep up with
> >> demand. When you are in that enviable position, you too can do what you
> >> want with your pricing.
> >> I do not undersell my wholesale customers' retail prices.
> >> Dave Finkelnburg in chilly southern Idaho where the fog this morning
> >> is beautifully frozen on last summer's sunflowers
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________________________
> >> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >>
> >> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >>
> >> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >______________________________________________________________________________
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Christopher J. Anton on wed 3 jan 01
----- Original Message -----
From: Malone & Dean
> Aloha All, I guess my "position" on the pricing issue is "Whatever the
> market will bear
Definitely a pretty good way to price. If one doesn't mind getting a bit
more complex, the next problem (at least to maximize income) is determining
at which price you get the best total income. In other words price times
volume yields gross sales. If, for example, priced at $5.00 a particular
piece sells 1000 copies a year, 850 per year at $6.00, and 680 per year
$8.00, then gross sales at $5.00 would be $5000, $5200 at $6.00, and $5240
priced at $8.00.
The same principles apply to determining product mix, i.e. what quantities
of mugs, platters, bowls, and weird thingamajiggies gives the best result in
terms of income v.s. time and materials spent.
- Chris
Marta Matray Gloviczki on wed 3 jan 01
hi all,
i know someone -no name, please-, who wanted to
buy a mackenzie teapot few years ago.
he flew in to minneapolis and stayed in a hotel. the
next morning he rented a car and drove to stillwater
for the annual fall sale of mackenzie. as he was
advised to arrive early, he stood in line for two
hours before the sale started. he had great fun though
chatting with all those pottery-lovers, he said.
yes, he did buy a mackenzie teapot (and several other
pots from other potters mackenzie was selling with).
he paid $34 for the teapot.
of course the whole trip was more expensive, and he
jokingly added that amount to the $34 he spent on the
actual teapot, and he said it was still less(!) than a
similar teapot of the same potter in a california
gallery.
.....and the rest of the story: he would love to do it
again, but mackenzie doesn't have those sales
anymore...
{{and, hey you, if you are reading your own story: i
didn't say your name!
ciao, marta}}
a hotel room there.
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Lee Love on fri 5 jan 01
----- Original Message -----
From: Marta Matray Gloviczki
> ...and the rest of the story: he would love to do it
> again, but mackenzie doesn't have those sales
> anymore...
Marta,
MacKenzie still has those sales. He even has "preview" days
(last time I was there), where the first day is only to look and not to buy.
I like the preview days because you get to see everything before it is gone.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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