Dave and Pat Eitel on wed 3 jan 01
A few years ago I took the time to type into a Clayart discussion a
couple of pages about pricing from Cardew's Pioneer Pottery. It may
still be available on some clayart archives somewhere. In any event
it is worth reading as a philosophical point of view for pricing
pottery. It makes a case, as I read it, for pricing being based in
morality.
A couple of comments on what I've seen in this thread...
If a Microsoft executive (for example) said software should be priced
at what the market would bear, a lot of people would be really upset,
I think, at being exploited by big business. Should small businesses
be exempt from exploitation?
It's really irrelevant whether Warren Mackenzie (or anyone else) has
income outside his sales of pots. Many potters do. He charges what
he feels is a fair price for his labor. The key word there is
"fair." I have little doubt Warren would sell out of pots no matter
how high his prices went. He is, after all, a "living treasure"
level potter.
I sat behind him at an auction at Penland several years ago when one
of his teapots which he had made during the session was being sold.
He seemed genuinely uncomfortable with how high the price was going=8BI
think it eventually sold for over $100=8Bfar above what he would have
sold it for from his studio.
--
Dave Eitel
Cedar Creek Pottery
Cedarburg, WI 53012
http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
Cindy Strnad on wed 3 jan 01
The pricing based on morality is an interesting concept.
I believe Microsoft does ask prices according to what the market will bear.
True, some would be willing and able to pay more, but their sales would drop
considerably, especially for non-essential software, if they increased their
prices by very much. Competing systems would begin to look much more
attractive to the public, and Microsoft would lose money.
Price gouging is another matter. People selling ice to hurricane victims at
$10/bag, for example. But you cannot price gouge with pottery. People will
always be able to find an acceptable cup at the nearby discount store (or
even, perhaps, an exemplary one at a yard sale or thrift store) for a price
they can afford. Or they'll find a potter who sells his/her wares more
affordably. If you price yourself too high, people will not buy from you.
That's all.
I would not consider Mr. Mackenzie to be immoral if he sold his wares for
what the market will bear. He has worked long and hard to attain his level
of skill, and he deserves to profit from it just as much as any physician or
politician or best-selling author. Why do we put ourselves in some class
marked "other" to the rest of the world? Potters who work hard and develop
their skill deserve to support their families, to go on holiday to France if
they like, and to live in nice homes just as much as anyone else.
Mackenzie chooses to sell at prices which he believes to be fair, and we
respect him for that. This does not mean we would respect him less if his
idea of "fair" were out of our budget range. So long as he is following his
conscience, he is to be respected.
If you truly believe it is moral to price your work at a certain level, and
immoral to rise above that, then that is what you should do. It is the right
thing for you. You would be immoral not to follow your conscience. This path
may not, however, be the right path for another person. So long as she,
also, is following her conscience (maybe something like "I need to give my
children good food and a nice home, and I can't do it unless I charge x
amount"), she is no more immoral than the person who freely gives all he has
and subsists on potato peelings.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
earthenv@gwtc.net
http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
mudlark on thu 4 jan 01
Morallity in pricing? The insurance companies are charging us for something we
hope never to need and in many cases it's the law that we have to by thier
product. 400% profits. Why don't we get a refund if we don't have to make a claim.
Not very many of us are getting rich doing this but many of us get by and can live
the lifestyle we choose. If you don't take into consideration both paying the
expenses of your workspace and paying yourself a decent wage then you are doing
the rest of the potter community a disservice, (immoral?). It's hard to sell at a
show next to someone that is "just trying to cover their costs' with $10 mugs.
Had a friend that sold very cheap. Through real estate dealings owned his
house/workspace free and clear and said he could charge what he did because his
monthy costs were so low. Is that the way to do business?
He left the mountains and saw what other potters were getting (sometimes twice as
much) and started to look at his own situation. Now he is rewarding himself for
setting himself up so well.
Went back and forth with girl friend/ co-worker on pricing. She said it would be
wrong (immoral?) to charge more than what you yourself can for pots. You charge
less then you make less. Then do you charge still less because you make less?
I read somewhere that self employed people will usually lower their price if they
are'nt making it when they should probably be charging more. You're failing, you
have a poor self image, you feel your not worth as much , you charge less.
Cindy Strnad wrote:
> The pricing based on morality is an interesting concept.
>
> I believe Microsoft does ask prices according to what the market will bear.
> True, some would be willing and able to pay more, but their sales would drop
> considerably, especially for non-essential software, if they increased their
> prices by very much. Competing systems would begin to look much more
> attractive to the public, and Microsoft would lose money.
>
> Price gouging is another matter. People selling ice to hurricane victims at
> $10/bag, for example. But you cannot price gouge with pottery. People will
> always be able to find an acceptable cup at the nearby discount store (or
> even, perhaps, an exemplary one at a yard sale or thrift store) for a price
> they can afford. Or they'll find a potter who sells his/her wares more
> affordably. If you price yourself too high, people will not buy from you.
> That's all.
>
> I would not consider Mr. Mackenzie to be immoral if he sold his wares for
> what the market will bear. He has worked long and hard to attain his level
> of skill, and he deserves to profit from it just as much as any physician or
> politician or best-selling author. Why do we put ourselves in some class
> marked "other" to the rest of the world? Potters who work hard and develop
> their skill deserve to support their families, to go on holiday to France if
> they like, and to live in nice homes just as much as anyone else.
>
> Mackenzie chooses to sell at prices which he believes to be fair, and we
> respect him for that. This does not mean we would respect him less if his
> idea of "fair" were out of our budget range. So long as he is following his
> conscience, he is to be respected.
>
> If you truly believe it is moral to price your work at a certain level, and
> immoral to rise above that, then that is what you should do. It is the right
> thing for you. You would be immoral not to follow your conscience. This path
> may not, however, be the right path for another person. So long as she,
> also, is following her conscience (maybe something like "I need to give my
> children good food and a nice home, and I can't do it unless I charge x
> amount"), she is no more immoral than the person who freely gives all he has
> and subsists on potato peelings.
>
> Cindy Strnad
> Earthen Vessels Pottery
> RR 1, Box 51
> Custer, SD 57730
> USA
> earthenv@gwtc.net
> http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
tomsawyer on sat 6 jan 01
Question,
How does one bring morality into a discussion without defining how it hurts
anyone purposely? Does low pricing purposely hurt the potter? does low
pricing purposely hurt the customer? Will a potter with a low price "corner"
the market so he/she can later raise prices - not likely. Will it hurt other
potters that wish to charge more, that wish to make a better living - maybe.
But is morality based on possibilities? The whole idea of morality in
pricing seems to me to be fatuous - dumb. No one can make and seel pots for
less than cost. To suggest that someone who sells pots for less is immoral
is to suggest that anyone working for a wage not in conformity with what
others wish to make is immoral. No one should work for minimum wage right
since not all of us agree minimum wage is set high enough? Sorry being an
agnostic I don't have much patients for should ofs or has to and besides I
just drank a couple of glasses of wine which always makes me more agressive.
Sorry if I offend anyone.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "mudlark"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: Mackenzie/Pricing/Morality
> Morallity in pricing? The insurance companies are charging us for
something we
> hope never to need and in many cases it's the law that we have to by thier
> product. 400% profits. Why don't we get a refund if we don't have to make
a claim.
>
> Not very many of us are getting rich doing this but many of us get by and
can live
> the lifestyle we choose. If you don't take into consideration both paying
the
> expenses of your workspace and paying yourself a decent wage then you are
doing
> the rest of the potter community a disservice, (immoral?). It's hard to
sell at a
> show next to someone that is "just trying to cover their costs' with $10
mugs.
>
> Had a friend that sold very cheap. Through real estate dealings owned his
> house/workspace free and clear and said he could charge what he did
because his
> monthy costs were so low. Is that the way to do business?
> He left the mountains and saw what other potters were getting (sometimes
twice as
> much) and started to look at his own situation. Now he is rewarding
himself for
> setting himself up so well.
>
> Went back and forth with girl friend/ co-worker on pricing. She said it
would be
> wrong (immoral?) to charge more than what you yourself can for pots. You
charge
> less then you make less. Then do you charge still less because you make
less?
>
> I read somewhere that self employed people will usually lower their price
if they
> are'nt making it when they should probably be charging more. You're
failing, you
> have a poor self image, you feel your not worth as much , you charge less.
>
> Cindy Strnad wrote:
>
> > The pricing based on morality is an interesting concept.
> >
> > I believe Microsoft does ask prices according to what the market will
bear.
> > True, some would be willing and able to pay more, but their sales would
drop
> > considerably, especially for non-essential software, if they increased
their
> > prices by very much. Competing systems would begin to look much more
> > attractive to the public, and Microsoft would lose money.
> >
> > Price gouging is another matter. People selling ice to hurricane victims
at
> > $10/bag, for example. But you cannot price gouge with pottery. People
will
> > always be able to find an acceptable cup at the nearby discount store
(or
> > even, perhaps, an exemplary one at a yard sale or thrift store) for a
price
> > they can afford. Or they'll find a potter who sells his/her wares more
> > affordably. If you price yourself too high, people will not buy from
you.
> > That's all.
> >
> > I would not consider Mr. Mackenzie to be immoral if he sold his wares
for
> > what the market will bear. He has worked long and hard to attain his
level
> > of skill, and he deserves to profit from it just as much as any
physician or
> > politician or best-selling author. Why do we put ourselves in some class
> > marked "other" to the rest of the world? Potters who work hard and
develop
> > their skill deserve to support their families, to go on holiday to
France if
> > they like, and to live in nice homes just as much as anyone else.
> >
> > Mackenzie chooses to sell at prices which he believes to be fair, and we
> > respect him for that. This does not mean we would respect him less if
his
> > idea of "fair" were out of our budget range. So long as he is following
his
> > conscience, he is to be respected.
> >
> > If you truly believe it is moral to price your work at a certain level,
and
> > immoral to rise above that, then that is what you should do. It is the
right
> > thing for you. You would be immoral not to follow your conscience. This
path
> > may not, however, be the right path for another person. So long as she,
> > also, is following her conscience (maybe something like "I need to give
my
> > children good food and a nice home, and I can't do it unless I charge x
> > amount"), she is no more immoral than the person who freely gives all he
has
> > and subsists on potato peelings.
> >
> > Cindy Strnad
> > Earthen Vessels Pottery
> > RR 1, Box 51
> > Custer, SD 57730
> > USA
> > earthenv@gwtc.net
> > http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Thom Mead on sun 7 jan 01
I have given my work to people. I've charged lots of money for my work, o=
ften when I loved the piece and didn't want to sell but was in a show tha=
t wouldn't allow any NFSs. I've undercharged for my work. Maybe it is all=
part of a continuum of which I have no understanding. I undercharged whe=
n a buyer who really wanted the work came by. I overcharged when I was re=
ally poor. I gave stuff away for unknown reasons because folks liked it. =
I have no clear understanding of this. It is beyond Zen. =20
diane in GA =20
lee love wrote>>>>
MacKenzie seems to have a pretty good self image. So did Hamada. Hamad=
a
kept his prices comparitively low when he was alive.
If these men are examples of "low self esteem" we need more of it=
..
:^) You could say, humility, is the antidote to Ego aggrandizement.>>>>=
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com
Lee Love on sun 7 jan 01
----- Original Message -----
From: mudlark
> I read somewhere that self employed people will usually lower their price
if they
> are'nt making it when they should probably be charging more. You're
failing, you
> have a poor self image, you feel your not worth as much , you charge less.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MacKenzie seems to have a pretty good self image. So did Hamada. Hamada
kept his prices comparitively low when he was alive.
If these men are examples of "low self esteem" we need more of it.
:^) You could say, humility, is the antidote to Ego aggrandizement.
True self esteem is not based upon material gain, but upon
higher values. We were brainwashed in the 80's to believe that materialism
was the highest goal. There are more important things, like the ultimate
vaules of Beauty, Truth, the Human Spirit and Character.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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