Polly Harris on mon 8 jan 01
Gretchen,
Don has given you some very good advice. Let me share some observations,
too. I tell young people - like you -- that come to work for me "If you can
walk away from clay -- by all means do, you do not have the passion to live
through the hard times.' This is more of a lifestyle or a journey than just
a job to make money. I got my MA in 1971 and have been working in clay since
then. You must be flexible -- everything that happened to me seemed to have
prepared me for the next step. I got my MA and had never made a pot with a
lid that fit -- needed to learn how to throw -- got a national company to buy
my first product and made 28,000 in the next four years. I needed to have
some more experience in color theory and along came a job to throw and
decorate 500 to 1000cactus gardens a week. The only limitation was I could
not used green or brown. Viola!! I learned to throw fast, accurately, and
decorate with any color and style I could visualize. On looking back I can
see if any opportunity had come earlier in my career I would not have been
able to solve and learn the lesson. What I needed to learn came when I
needed to learn it.
30k gross or net?? ... But be aware that if you hire help you will have
to double or triple that to cover
the cost. I have paid more than that in a year for only part time help.
Numbers are funny things you can make them say anything you want. Maybe you
need to consider NOT how much you make in dollars, but what all you want to
do with your time. I have traveled the
Pacific Rim one year, read books and tested any glaze I wanted to try --
another year. I raised a beautiful daughter -- and was home everyday when
she got home from school, saw her compete in every horse show she wanted to
try, etc. There is no way to really count the dollars that would have taken
for a single Mom to do if I had a "real" job. Money isn't everything.
Please do not think I have skated through. There was the time I
delivered the first 300 oil lamps only to discovered that they leaked within
10 minutes (don't trust what a book says!!) or the night I melted a kiln down
in the middle of by busiest season. I have had to move my pottery with 30
days notice, go to small claims court, deal with employees that filed claims
with the labor department -- (I won all judgments), etc.
In short, I have thought several times "I am going to get a job," but
when it came down to leaving my first love I realized I could not make enough
money to match the life I have had with clay.
Sorry to ramble ... it is just that money is not the only thing to
consider when living a life.
Polly
Gretchen Woodman on mon 8 jan 01
Dear Clatarters,
I would be very interested in hearing how many
of you make a comfortable living in the field of clay.
I am an artist myself. I finished my BFA 1 1/2 years
ago. I would really like to think I could make at
least 30K doing my work if I attended Fine Craft
Shows, sold through shops, etc. Does this sound like
a totally unrealistic aspiration? At this point in my
life I really would like to feel I could do the only
thing I love to do, have it support itself and turn a
profit too.
I keep pushing myself forward anyway, but it is
difficult at times. Sometimes I wonder if it is only
possible if you have another job. If anyone could
share ways they have made their art/craft work for
them, it may provide the impetus I need to speed
things up for myself.
Thank you for your help!
Gretchen
__________________________________________________
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Paul Lewing on mon 8 jan 01
Gretchen,
As we all discuss your question, I think it's important to clear up one
issue. You ask if you can make $30,000 a year doing clay. Do you mean
gross (before expenses) or net (after-tax income- the amount you
actually get to keep)?
As we've heard David Hendley point out many times, it's not what you
take in that's important, it's what you get to keep. In my opinion,
$30,000 a year gross is not enough to live on, as you can expect your
expenses to run at least 40% of gross income. At least I couldn't do
it, or don't want to. So I hope you're meaning you want to make $30,000
a year net.
The answer to your question is that, yes, you can make $30,000 a year
(net) doing clay. Especially if you can live simply and in some place
where the cost of living is not too high, and if you're willing to work
hard. Maybe you should move to Ithaca NY, and buy Linda Blossom's house
and studio. It sounds wonderful, and she's only asking about $140,000
for it. If she could move it to my neighborhood in Seattle, she could
sell it in ten minutes for $500,000.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
ASHPOTS@AOL.COM on mon 8 jan 01
For what its worth ive been making pots since 1965. I taught and i sold pots.
I became a Firefighter and that was nice because the schedule was one on two
off, which means 9 days a month to work. There were days off were i would
have to sleep to make up for the hours of no sleep for the 24 hour day.
Every clay convention or meeting etc i try to tell the young ones to become
Firefighters. The time off and the pay and also the benifets are great.20
days a month was plenty of time to make and sell pots.
I spent 18 yrs as a Firefighter, i am now RETIRED and the retirement check
comes in every month.
I say if you can run a mile under 8 minutes and can do 50 situps, this is the
way to go.After a few calls the blood and gore gets routine.My mind is only
fried a little.
Capt Mark
PS the Capt is for sailing not the Fire job. I was a Tail board Dummy, which
did not hurt my feelings. I had enough time to sail and make pots
Don Jones on mon 8 jan 01
Gretchen,
I'm sure you will get many comments on how much work it is but in fact you
can make a very good living at clay. The following is based on my own
experience and is not meant to be the definitive answer to your query. I am
making a decent living at clay and it seems the amount of money I want to
make is totally up to me.
First of all "clay" is too general a term. Do you mean pottery? Do you
mean functional pottery? Do you mean art objects made of clay?
If I were you I would keep the following questions in mind on your way to 30k:
1. Do you want to do production work (large quantities of the same
pieces)? or:
2. Do you want to do time consuming, expensive, one of a kind work?
I don't think you can say yes to both 1 and 2 and be happy with making a
living with clay. I think there are production potters and non-production
clay workers. There doesn't seem to be enough time to do justice to both.
When I decided at one point to do production work, there weren't enough
hours in the day to keep up with demand. I couldn't stand it. Galleries
wanted more and more. In fact if you have the right product and learn a
few marketing skills you can build up a production studio with many
employees and a huge yearly sales figure. 30k is very modest. When I
decided I didn't want to do production any more my income dropped by 75%
and now I have to build up my "expensive one-of-a-kind pieces" for a
different market.(that IS working by the way but it takes a different kind
of attention and energy.)
3. Do you have the $resource$ to build up your business to 30k and still
work at it full time or do you have to work part time at clay and part time
with a "job"?
If you have to have a job and do clay part time, it will take you longer to
build up to your 30k.
With the right amount of money, guts, and a good product you can acheive
your goals in a short period of time. Just show up with good stuff at the
Baltimore A.C.E. show and the Buyer's Market in Philadelphia. It's not
impossible to write up 30k in orders the first year. Repeat buyers and
showing up for a few more years and you can triple that figure. I once
heard of a tile maker who landed a 1 million dollar account with Neiman
Marcus. (the downside of course is that you have to FILL those orders!)
4. Do you have the $resources$ to make gallery contacts, go to wholesale
and retail craft events, and all the booth construction, travel,
advertising , and presentation costs that go along with that?
5. Do you have your own clay studio? ie: kiln, wheel, tables, space, etc.
Working with school or coop facilities is a much more difficult way to go.
It sounds like you are young enough to supply the energy and enthusiasm
needed to fill the long hours it will take to acheive your goals. Also you
have this wonderful group to give you advice and encouragement.
Don Jones in Albuquerque
>Dear Clatarters,
>
> I would be very interested in hearing how many
>of you make a comfortable living in the field of clay.
> I am an artist myself. I finished my BFA 1 1/2 years
>ago. I would really like to think I could make at
>least 30K doing my work if I attended Fine Craft
>Shows, sold through shops, etc. Does this sound like
>a totally unrealistic aspiration?
www.highfiber.com/~claysky
george koller on mon 8 jan 01
Gretchen Woodman wrote:
>
>
> I would be very interested in hearing how many
> of you make a comfortable living in the field of clay.
> I am an artist myself. I finished my BFA 1 1/2 years
> ago. I would really like to think I could make at
> least 30K doing my work if I attended Fine Craft
> Shows, sold through shops, etc. Does this sound like
> a totally unrealistic aspiration? At this point in my
> life I really would like to feel I could do the only
> thing I love to do, have it support itself and turn a
> profit too.
>
Gretchen,
Ahhheemmm. I fancy myself highly experienced, if not
a leading authority at "making nearly enough money to
support myself". Five years of direct experience now.
In fact, someday I want to write a book (another big money
arena) about how I successfully promoted myself from a
"successful software entrepreneur" to a "starving artist".
I once asked a successful author "how much" I could expect
to make on a book for somewhat the same reason you may
have asked this question. I will never ever forget the look on
her face. I think the best translation would have been "If you
want it bad enough to make it, you would not ask".
I have worked pretty hard with some fair luck to build a studio,
buy equipment, and do what has to be done, and if I had to venture
a guess things had to be going as well as they ever went to make
a full $6.00 an hour after all costs. I'm fully aware that this is a
crass simplification but somehow, someway, there seems to be
some sort of wall at about this "wage" that you can get TO
without depending on much, but over/under/or around which
you can only get with some sort of "golden pass".
What is a "golden pass"? A great desire to succeed, a real
talent with clay or people or...., a friend with a gallery, a sibling
that builds web sites, a rich uncle, the perfect location,
who knows? Even with one pass, I think you have to want
to succeed very deeply because, on your own, you will find
yourself needing to know and do a lot of things you probably
are not thinking about. Did you notice the threads on Tax,
on shipping, on recycling, on cleaning, on health issues, on
marketing, on shows, on marketing. It's spooky - what you
have to think you know.
George
Ten years ago "going south" meant going to Naples, FL and
hanging out at the docks. Now it means going to Milwaukee,
and eating at a George Webbs. I think my transmutation is
nearly complete.
Terry Sullivan on tue 9 jan 01
Hi from Nottingham,
Seems I'm missing lots of posts from Clayart over the past week. Nothing
about Mel or Linda Blossoms post for instance.
Anyhow: "Making a living at Clay" ???? Of course you can. Lots and lots of
folks do just that.
Last weekend we had local San Diego potter, David Cuzick
www.cuzickpottery.com, up to Nottingham for a two day workshop. David has
been a full time potter for decades. He does mostly individual pieces and
does not wholesale. Although he does about six sale events a year; the two
weekend events held at his own studio account for about 70 % of his gross
sales. He grosses about $ 20,000 plus in two days at each sale. No
commission, no transporting the work, just tables all over the yard outside
his studio and hundreds of people rushing madly to get his stuff.
I now take helpers to hold the pieces I select because you have to move fast
to get the really good pots. Good thing I have a nice collection of his work.
He sold out over christmus and didn't have much of his own to show at the
workshop so I displayed my collection.
What does he make per year? About $ 50,000 plus net. His wife, Mary, is
also a potter and has a "regular" job. Don't know what she makes. As you
might know, San Diego is somewhat expensive compared to much of the US. Our
electric bills are so high it is cheaper to fire with cow dung and Stickley
furniture ( joke ).
BTW- Paul Lewing is right on about Linda Blossoms place in Ithaca, NY. It is
a steal at $ 140,000. Here in North San Diego County it would sell for at
least half a million for the land alone. I'd be moving there myself if I
didn't have a dear 85 yr.old mother to take care of and the Nottingham Center
to run. You would be hard pressed to find a neater place than Ithaca, NY to
live. It is a sure thing Linda and I will be flying there several times a
year to visit our friends and hike the many beautifull waterfall trails.
Also: I wasn't able to find any really good potters in the area. It's wide
open for a quality potter to grab the market.
Michael Rutkowsky on tue 9 jan 01
Bravo!
-----Original Message-----
From: Polly Harris
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: making a living at clay
>Gretchen,
> Don has given you some very good advice. Let me share some
observations,
>too. I tell young people - like you -- that come to work for me "If you
can
>walk away from clay -- by all means do, you do not have the passion to live
>through the hard times.' This is more of a lifestyle or a journey than
just
>a job to make money. I got my MA in 1971 and have been working in clay
since
>then. You must be flexible -- everything that happened to me seemed to
have
>prepared me for the next step. I got my MA and had never made a pot with a
>lid that fit -- needed to learn how to throw -- got a national company to
buy
>my first product and made 28,000 in the next four years. I needed to have
>some more experience in color theory and along came a job to throw and
>decorate 500 to 1000cactus gardens a week. The only limitation was I could
>not used green or brown. Viola!! I learned to throw fast, accurately, and
>decorate with any color and style I could visualize. On looking back I can
>see if any opportunity had come earlier in my career I would not have been
>able to solve and learn the lesson. What I needed to learn came when I
>needed to learn it.
> 30k gross or net?? ... But be aware that if you hire help you will
have
>to double or triple that to cover
>the cost. I have paid more than that in a year for only part time help.
>Numbers are funny things you can make them say anything you want. Maybe
you
>need to consider NOT how much you make in dollars, but what all you want to
>do with your time. I have traveled the
>Pacific Rim one year, read books and tested any glaze I wanted to try --
>another year. I raised a beautiful daughter -- and was home everyday when
>she got home from school, saw her compete in every horse show she wanted to
>try, etc. There is no way to really count the dollars that would have
taken
>for a single Mom to do if I had a "real" job. Money isn't everything.
> Please do not think I have skated through. There was the time I
>delivered the first 300 oil lamps only to discovered that they leaked
within
>10 minutes (don't trust what a book says!!) or the night I melted a kiln
down
>in the middle of by busiest season. I have had to move my pottery with 30
>days notice, go to small claims court, deal with employees that filed
claims
>with the labor department -- (I won all judgments), etc.
> In short, I have thought several times "I am going to get a job," but
>when it came down to leaving my first love I realized I could not make
enough
>money to match the life I have had with clay.
> Sorry to ramble ... it is just that money is not the only thing to
>consider when living a life.
>
>Polly
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Gretchen Woodman on tue 9 jan 01
To everyone who has responded to me so far,
Thank you all for your wonderful advice and the time
you all are taking to give me your hard-earned
knowledge. I have enjoyed reading every reponse. I
should clarify that 30K is just a number I threw out
there to see if clay can make a figure that would
begin to suggest possibilities. I also meant to say
30k clear - after all expenses.
Another piece of information may also help. I was a
non-traditional student when I went back to art
school. In other words, I am 40 instead of
20(unfortunately), and I have two wonderful children.
In my "former life" I tried many other careers from
accounting to medical research. I have my husband's
resources to rely on for health insurance and a home
but I want to know that I have a career of my own and
it is respectable(only for the environment that I must
live in) in the sense that it can make a recognizable
income. The biggest reason I want to work with clay
is of course for the love of it: the physical
interaction with it , its direct connection to the
earth and life and the wonderful people I meet who
share these same things(all of you).
The part of me that must live in reality is the
expenses I incur from the supplies I must buy, etc.
-and there is a point where I begin to feel like a
liability as I gather all the things I need.
Meanwhile, as I start out, there is no proof to those
around me that this is not just a pipe dream. All of
the advice and information you have shared with me so
far has been very encouraging. It has made me feel
that I am in very good company and I am going to keep
going ahead with my plans. One of these days,
hopefully sooner than later, I will have a website so
I can show you my work that you all encouraged me to
create with your kindness.
Thank you,
Gretchen Woodman
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Stephani Stephenson on tue 9 jan 01
Years ago, I took a Community workshop for people who were deciding
whether to go into business for themselves. At that time I loved clay
and was trying to decide what my direction and approach would be.
The business workshop was enormously helpful. I have discovered many
times over, that if even you are the most passionate potter, the most
gifted claywhirler , in order to make a living you will find yourself
managing a business, namely YOU!
One bit of advice I have always remembered is to assess your strengths,
your shortcomings, your resources and your liabilities, and ask
yourself how you handle risk.
RESOURCES: When you ask, how do people do it?, some may say they have
a spouse that works at a job, they have some property their parents
left them, they teach workshops, etc. These are not excuses, they are
resources! So look at your resources as you assess your chances. Some
people do start from scratch. Give them a pat on the back. It is not
easy, it takes commitment. And yes there are those who earn a decent
living from it, and I bet each has a story to tell!
RISK: Some people have the ability to dive in, no net, put everything
they have into it. Quit the job, start throwing pots, even borrow money.
Others need to nurture the venture gradually; perhaps working part
time or even full time at a job and putting together their business or
their living as a potter on nights and weekends. This approach works
well if you can envision a timetable, set and achieve goals. In this
scenario you can purchase startup equipment, establish credit, save
money , build a studio, gain exposure, gain confidence or build a
clientele , using earnings from a steady job, until it is time to
complete the transition and give birth to you , the full time potter.
Others discover that they do not at all want to EVER rely on their
claywork for their income . They choose to earn money another way and
savor their explorations in the medium , free from the world of the
marketplace.
There is no right or wrong way, and each of us works it out according
to our character and particular situation.
One of my favorite sayings is credited as The Three Wisdoms, in M.C.
Richards book, The Crossing Point.
It goes:
Go Slow, said the Snail
Hop! Hop! said the Hare
Pace Yourself , said the Cheetah, it is a long run
I took the middle road for 8 years, paying off hefty student loans and
medical expenses with a job while setting up a studio. After 5 years I
was working at a part time position and earning the other half my
income from clay. I have been earning all my income from clay for
nearly two years now , working with tilemaker and architectural
ceramist Laird Plumleigh, who has raised his family and bought his
property with his income from the studio.
What I can tell you about his character is that he WORKS. He works
into the evening, he is up at daylight,. People come to the studio on
weekends. There is no 8 hour day and five day work week. From what I can
figure, his salvation is that the Pacific Ocean is just down the hill
and he can grab a surfboard , head out into the waves and be back ,
refreshed in 45 minutes.
It is good to see that he is finally benefiting from the years he has
put into it, in that a steady stream of people find him. Even so, the
income is not predictable or guaranteed month to month; whereas a
mortgage, a utility bill, insurance, ARE due at regular intervals. Even
though it all shakes out at the end of the year, there can be some
dramatic highs and lows financially , and one needs a personality that
can handle it. So in this way, a good farmer might make a good potter.
It is a seasonal, or at least cyclical life. You will need to figure out
how to buffer against hard times and manage well in good times. You will
need to take in far more than you think, and you will need to do it
over and over again to really make a living at it. I am not so seasoned
yet. I am anxious when the bills come due and delirious when I get a
good project in my mitts.
best wishes,
Stephani Stephenson
http://www.alchemiestudio.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~mudmistress/
Doug Jones on wed 10 jan 01
Gretchen, send me your e-mail address -DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Gretchen Woodman
To:
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:23 AM
Subject: making a living at clay
> Dear Clatarters,
>
> I would be very interested in hearing how many
> of you make a comfortable living in the field of clay.
> I am an artist myself. I finished my BFA 1 1/2 years
> ago. I would really like to think I could make at
> least 30K doing my work if I attended Fine Craft
> Shows, sold through shops, etc. Does this sound like
> a totally unrealistic aspiration? At this point in my
> life I really would like to feel I could do the only
> thing I love to do, have it support itself and turn a
> profit too.
> I keep pushing myself forward anyway, but it is
> difficult at times. Sometimes I wonder if it is only
> possible if you have another job. If anyone could
> share ways they have made their art/craft work for
> them, it may provide the impetus I need to speed
> things up for myself.
> Thank you for your help!
> Gretchen
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Tom Wirt/Betsy Price on wed 10 jan 01
Hi Again Gretchen....
Thanks for the additional information. Case in point for the list is
that you get better/different information when the picture is more
complete (not intended as a negative comment).
Given your more complete picture, one thing I would additionally say
is to avoid the temptation to underprice your work especially at the
beginning, because you have the other support systems (which I assumed
to be missing in my first post - shame on me). Do a careful job of
truly figuring your real costs of producing and selling your work.
The mental approach would be to assume, as you mention in your second
post, that you were doing this as your sole support.
Reason why? With support systems (the big one is health insurance)
you can underprice (compared to cost), not just materials and
supplies, but all overhead costs such as studio rental/purchase,
marketing expense, office time, etc., etc. But what happens if you
decide to go full time? Now you have to take a significant price
increase that will probably kill all your current markets (stores or
shows). If work is realistically priced to start with, you really
know what your market is.
Best way to do all this is to develop a (here it comes kids) business
plan. Stephani in today's post outlines much of that and much of the
rest is in the archives and the books I mentioned.
Tom Wirt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gretchen Woodman"
>Subject: Re: making a living at clay
> Another piece of information may also help. I was a
> non-traditional student when I went back to art
> school. In other words, I am 40 instead of
> 20(unfortunately),
Sarah House on wed 10 jan 01
Write a business plan. It's a hard thing to do if your starting out fresh,
and it often seems less useful if you've been at it for a while. but
getting it all on paper is proven to DOUBLE your chances of success in
business, and it will help to show you things like how many wholesale
accounts you'll need, how many shows to do etc. to get to that goal income.
Sarah House
Little Switzerland, NC
http://www.skhpottery.com
Jeff Brown on wed 10 jan 01
On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 20:40:25 -0800, Gretchen Woodman
wrote:
> The part of me that must live in reality is the
>expenses I incur from the supplies I must buy, etc.
>-and there is a point where I begin to feel like a
>liability as I gather all the things I need.
>Meanwhile, as I start out, there is no proof to those
>around me that this is not just a pipe dream.
Gretchen,
The cost of setting up a studio is a big expense...I took the "pottery as a
job" route and worked for other potters before I started my own business,
gathering equipment along the way. My opinion is, if you make what pleases
you and do good work, you should be able to make a profit eventually......
It will take a lot of trial(by fire) and error deciding whether or not to
sell at Fine Craft Shows, wholesale to shops, or retail at your studio.
I don't mind doing Fine Craft Shows, but I prefer retailing from my studio.
Taken with a grain of salt, this post from the clayart archive about doing
craft shows will give you an idea of what you will feel like after doing a
craft show. (Its long but worth reading)
"Pondering next year's shows---are they worth it?"
http://lsv.ceramics.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0010&L=CLAYART&P=R54563
Good luck,
Jeff Brown
http://www.jeffbrownpottery.com
jeff@jeffbrownpottery.com
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