will edwards on thu 11 jan 01
Hello,
First and foremost. "Craig I offer my apologies to you!" Delete what I wr=
ite
and move on.
Those interested in slowing some of the drying issues down a little while=
adding a water based lubricate and humectant to their work can use Propyl=
ene
Glycol. I believe it is a better tonic than any glycerins I have tried.
Now for those who are thinking this is the one that kills dogs such as in=
anti-freeze, it is not the same one. Ethylene Glycol is used as anti-feez=
e but
I hear the newer material are made with propylene instead in many cases. =
(Read
the label)
Should anyone desire to slow down some of the cracking when it is hard to=
control might want to experiment with this a little. It holds moisture an=
d
burns off like any other materials in the mix. =
Would it be possible to make slip and mix water with part Pg to slow the
drying on joins enough to help create better stability in the end where
certain clays are prone to cracking easy? =
Surely we can find some good methods out there. I do know acrylic will wo=
rk in
many cases since much of it is acidic and it is the main ingredient in gl=
ue. I
use an acrylic mixture I buy for other purposes with great results but it=
will
froth a slip if any vinegar is present. Paper-clay made with about 15 -20=
% of
this would be a great test for anyone who would put a bit of the clay in =
with
it I would think? Also starch based materials like Argo starch mixed with=
clay
is another approach to look at as well. Starches work great at sticking t=
hings
and are used a good deal in such areas as in textile work.
Once I can catch back up with the book stuff and the lab work I will give=
a
few of these ideas a run for the money and report my findings in detail. =
William Edwards
Alchemy 101
____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
1
Marcia Selsor on fri 12 jan 01
Dear Will,
I have been using this for years. A student brought it into the shop. It
is known as airplane antifreeze in Montana. I think I may have read
about it on clayart or suggestions in Ceramics Monthly. You add it to a
mixture of water and then to slips or glazes. I have used it for a "tube
lining" technique of applying glazes through a tool made of an ear
syringe and a hyperdermic needle (see Ceramics Monthly May '97). Adding
this to my glaze reduced the air bubble and gave a smooth flow out of a
very tiny needle. It can also be used as an additive for smoother slips
and majolica overglazing.
Marcia in Montana
will edwards wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> First and foremost. "Craig I offer my apologies to you!" Delete what I write
> and move on.
>
> Those interested in slowing some of the drying issues down a little while
> adding a water based lubricate and humectant to their work can use Propylene
> Glycol. I believe it is a better tonic than any glycerins I have tried.
> Now for those who are thinking this is the one that kills dogs such as in
> anti-freeze, it is not the same one. Ethylene Glycol is used as anti-feeze but
> I hear the newer material are made with propylene instead in many cases. (Read
> the label)
> Should anyone desire to slow down some of the cracking when it is hard to
> control might want to experiment with this a little. It holds moisture and
> burns off like any other materials in the mix.
> Would it be possible to make slip and mix water with part Pg to slow the
> drying on joins enough to help create better stability in the end where
> certain clays are prone to cracking easy?
> Surely we can find some good methods out there. I do know acrylic will work in
> many cases since much of it is acidic and it is the main ingredient in glue. I
> use an acrylic mixture I buy for other purposes with great results but it will
> froth a slip if any vinegar is present. Paper-clay made with about 15 -20% of
> this would be a great test for anyone who would put a bit of the clay in with
> it I would think? Also starch based materials like Argo starch mixed with clay
> is another approach to look at as well. Starches work great at sticking things
> and are used a good deal in such areas as in textile work.
> Once I can catch back up with the book stuff and the lab work I will give a
> few of these ideas a run for the money and report my findings in detail.
>
> William Edwards
> Alchemy 101
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Marcia Selsor
selsor@imt.net
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/Tuscany2001.html
David Hendley on fri 12 jan 01
Propylene Glycol is indeed non-toxic, and is commonly
used in food products. It is also what you are buying when
you buy non-toxic anti-freeze. This is the easiest way
to buy it, but it will be that disconcerting bright lime green
color.
When I worked at an ice cream factory, we regularly added
Propylene Glycol to the mix. It was disgusting; it looked
and felt for all the world like motor oil.
This material can be useful when added to decorating slips, to
make for a mixture that has a nice 'flow' and brush-ability.
--
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com/
----- Original Message -----
Those interested in slowing some of the drying issues down a little while
adding a water based lubricate and humectant to their work can use Propylene
Glycol. I believe it is a better tonic than any glycerins I have tried.
Now for those who are thinking this is the one that kills dogs such as in
anti-freeze, it is not the same one. Ethylene Glycol is used as anti-feeze
but
I hear the newer material are made with propylene instead in many cases.
(Read
the label)
Should anyone desire to slow down some of the cracking when it is hard to
control might want to experiment with this a little. It holds moisture and
burns off like any other materials in the mix.
Would it be possible to make slip and mix water with part Pg to slow the
drying on joins enough to help create better stability in the end where
certain clays are prone to cracking easy?
Janet Kaiser on sat 13 jan 01
It was also what was found in white wine
produced in Austria and Germany in the 1980s. It
was used to give the artificially sweetened wine
a longer shelf life. Yet another example of
corporate greed syndrome.
It was a big scandal at the time. Not because it
was toxic (it is not) but because it was not
where it belonged. Stupid too, because wine
sales have still not fully recovered and Europe
has a wine lake alongside its butter and meat
mountains. But don't worry, we hide them from
the tourists and keep charging top price for
everything.
Janet Kaiser - ever the cynic
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Rod, Marian, and Holly Morris on sun 14 jan 01
I have to add my propylene glycol story. The next time you go in for any
kind of internal Xrays where they have to "clean you out" first- guess what
you will be drinking? Last time I did this, I had to drink a gallon (yes, a
gallon) of stuff and on the label, I read- propylene glycol. By the way, if
you ever had to have this done- get the cherry flavored kind. The other
stuff tastes like drinking dish detergent.
Marian in Michigan
will edwards on mon 15 jan 01
Hello,
When I wrote the information regarding Propylene Glycol I wanted to be cl=
ear
that it was not the one that is associated with a toxin. Ethylene will ki=
ll a
dog or cat in the worst of ways and it is sweet so they will lick it. =
I have in the past seen articles about using anti-freeze in clay work wit=
hout
any pre-cautions. I am referring to articles I have in my vast collection=
from
sources else where. (I wouldn't advise this since they are alternatives)
Always take the safe route!
Establishing those materials that sound so close in name from a toxin to =
a
safe one is very important!
Also for those that are spraying glazes may I suggest that you try a smal=
l
amount of propylene glycol in with your mix when you are spraying. It wil=
l
help the flow and prevent so much tip drying because it holds the moistur=
e. A
massive vortex of air is working at the very tip of an air-brush needle w=
hen
you are spraying which causes major drying on the needle. Propylene is us=
ed in
small amounts to stop this in commercial preperations for sprayable produ=
cts.
Also by the time the materials leave the end of the airbrush and have hit=
the
air you will find that adding the Propylene Glycol can lessen that dried =
out
pebble appearance. Too much will cause running so start out with a teaspo=
on
per 3 oz. of fluid and add or deduct from that.
If Ba and Sr are so close that even complicated lab equipment has a time =
with
them and flame testing is the best method for determining which is which,=
wouldn't it make sense to see how close the safer one works in all the ol=
der
versions of recipes? Remember - what we don't know was what we need to le=
arn.
I am re-educating my ways...
William Edwards
Alchemy 101 - It takes a chemist, a toxicologist and the FDA to understan=
d
what most food labels say. How in the world would we ever learn all this =
in
one life-time?
____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
1
Paul Lewing on mon 15 jan 01
Rod, Marian, and Holly Morris wrote:
>
> I have to add my propylene glycol story. The next time you go in for any
> kind of internal Xrays where they have to "clean you out" first- guess what
> you will be drinking? Last time I did this, I had to drink a gallon (yes, a
> gallon) of stuff and on the label, I read- propylene glycol.
My wife had to do this too, when she had some surgery. The product was
this same stuff, but the brand name was "Go-Lightly". Man, talk about
violation of truth in advertising!
Paul Lewing, Seattle
iandol on tue 16 jan 01
It seems strange to me that we are willing to accept this material as a =
food additive. Is it derived directly from some plant or animal. I know =
Glycerine is a bye produce of rendering animal parts which would be =
otherwise discarded after slaughter but where does Propylene Glycol come =
from. Is it synthesised like Urea. Or is it a bye product of another =
industry which Big Commerce has found a use for and hence, an additional =
profit.
Ivor. Redhill, South Australia
Snail Scott on tue 16 jan 01
At 11:18 PM 1/16/01 -0000, you wrote:
>According to my dictionary, Glycerine (also
>known as Glycerol or Glycerin in USA) is "a
>thick, sweet, colourless liquid used as
>medicine, ointment etc. and in explosives".
>
>I have no idea what it is made of or from, but
>doubt it is an animal by-product. More like
>petroleum, maybe with some sort of saccharine
>content?
>Janet Kaiser
Glycerin is a hydrolized oil or fat - I don't
know if animal or vegetable, or both. I do
know it was used at least as far back as the
1850's as a soap ingredient.
-Snail
Janet Kaiser on tue 16 jan 01
I think you are confusing Glycerine with
Gelatine, Ivor.
Like old-fashioned glues and gums, Gelatine is
made from boiling up animal bones to obtain the
Gluten. Traditionally it was also known as
"aspic" and made from calves feet, it was very
nourishing and often served to invalids.
Unless you are a vegetarian or are weary of
possible BSE infected cow products, gelatine is
quite acceptable and it has been used for
centuries to make sweetmeats and jellies. Jelly
babies are a mix of gelatine, sugar and cocktail
of E numbers (colouring and flavour).
According to my dictionary, Glycerine (also
known as Glycerol or Glycerin in USA) is "a
thick, sweet, colourless liquid used as
medicine, ointment etc. and in explosives". A
medicine called "glycerine, lemon and honey" was
the only one I remember liking as a child. As
far as I am aware, it never did me any harm. On
the contrary, it soothed a cough well and tasted
lovely.
I have no idea what it is made of or from, but
doubt it is an animal by-product. More like
petroleum, maybe with some sort of saccharine
content?
On an historical note: padding products and
adding doubtful ingredients pre-dates the
industrial revolution. Adding sand to ground
pepper was a common practice in Tudor England
and the first consumer laws were introduced by
the Romans to curb unscrupulous traders.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
It seems strange to me that we are willing to
accept this material as a food additive. Is it
derived directly from some plant or animal. I
know Glycerine is a bye produce of rendering
animal parts which would be otherwise discarded
after slaughter but where does Propylene Glycol
come from. Is it synthesised like Urea. Or is it
a bye product of another industry which Big
Commerce has found a use for and hence, an
additional profit.
Ivor. Redhill, South Australia
Larry Phillips on tue 16 jan 01
iandol wrote:
>
> It seems strange to me that we are willing to accept this material as a food additive.
> Is it derived directly from some plant or animal.
It is derived from a petroleum product (natural gas byproduct, I think).
Have a look at http://208.5.178.253/products/propgly_content.htm
--
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
Martin Howard on wed 17 jan 01
Janet, I have been wondering for a long time why so many people are unable
to eat Gluten products.
You write:-
There's the answer. Too much of it from jellies etc in younger years, so the
body reacts against it.
Another reason for going vegetarian and keeping our children away from
animal products.
Martin Howard
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
England
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
Wade Blocker on wed 17 jan 01
Glycerine could be of animal, plant or synthetic origin -glyceril-stereate.
Glycerine is an inexpensive substitute for hand lotion. Mia in ABQ
Pam on wed 17 jan 01
This is OT for the group, but I was surprised to learn that marshmallows
contain
gelatine, as well as Altoid mints.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Howard"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: Propylene Glycol
> Janet, I have been wondering for a long time why so many people are unable
> to eat Gluten products.
> You write:-
>
> There's the answer. Too much of it from jellies etc in younger years, so
the
> body reacts against it.
> Another reason for going vegetarian and keeping our children away from
> animal products.
>
> Martin Howard
> Webb's Cottage Pottery
> Woolpits Road, Great Saling
> BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
> England
> martin@webbscottage.co.uk
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Janet Kaiser on wed 17 jan 01
Martin: Sorry, I mistyped... That should read
"Gelatine is made from boiling up animal bones
to obtain the glutin." (not gluten)
I am not a scientist or medic, but I would tend
to think there is a difference between animal
Glutin (a single protein) and vegetable Gluten
(mix of proteins). All the people I know are
allergic to the gluten in grains, which are a
protein cocktail and therefore very difficult to
isolate single allergens. The easiest diagnosis
is to say "gluten allergy", but it is not as
easy as that.
Either are sticky (that is why flour and water
makes a good paper paste) and share the name,
derived from Latin: glus, glutin, gluten.
Gelatine is an important source of these
proteins which help hair and nail
growth/vitality and are very important for bone
development in growing children, including (I
believe) unborn babies. I am sure they should
not be avoided. I would be far more concerned
about the refined sugar and E number additives
usually associated with such products.
It is also very difficult to avoid products
which contain gelatine. Even those yoghurt and
fruit mixtures, low-fat, low calorie and "lite"
products, low-sugar jams and all sorts of
confectionery contain gelatine. The only
products guaranteed not to contain gelatine, are
marked as suitable for vegans.
Whenever I get back to potting, I hope to try
out gelatine in resist work... I do not know if
it has even been tried, but I believe it would
make a good substitute for shellac.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> Janet, I have been wondering for a long time
why so many people are unable to eat Gluten
products.
> You write:- Gelatine is made from boiling up
animal bones to obtain the Gluten.
> There's the answer. Too much of it from
jellies etc in younger years, so the
> body reacts against it.
ferenc jakab on wed 17 jan 01
where does Propylene Glycol come from. Is it synthesised like Urea. Or is it
a bye product of another industry which Big Commerce has found a use for and
hence, an additional profit.
Ivor. Redhill, South Australia
Ivor,
it's a by-product of oil refining. Chamber's Science and Technology
Dictionary, (1988), p 715... Incidentally so is glycerine.
Feri.
Send us some more COOL weather please!
iandol on thu 18 jan 01
Larry, thank you for that information. I suspected that it had some =
connection with the petrochemical industries.
Which raises some hairy thoughts in my imagination which are better =
suppressed as they go off topic.
Best regards,
Ivor
iandol on thu 18 jan 01
Dear Ferenc,
Thought it might be, though I read that Glycerine is a bye product of =
soap making, formed during the alkali reaction with fat or vegetable =
oil. So why not with mineral oil! When I used to oscillate between =
Billingham and Grangemouth dealing with all the corrosion problems that =
occur in such places, it used to be said that without the motor car =
there would be no use for gasoline(Petrol/Essence) but without the =
gasoline there would be no plastic for the motor car.
Thanks and Regards,
Ivor
Janet Kaiser on thu 18 jan 01
Pam
UK Potter and tile maker Bronwyn Williams-Ellis
could write a book on gelatine easier than her
current book on tile-making.
She is allergic to gelatine (amongst other
allergens) and gets really teed off with the
number of products that contain it. Anything
soft, sweet and squishy has a very high
likelihood of containing it... And you cannot
get much sweeter, softer or squishier than
marshmallows!
Best
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> This is OT for the group, but I was surprised
to learn that marshmallows
> contain gelatine, as well as Altoid mints.
will edwards on thu 18 jan 01
Hello,
I never seen this make it to the group. So here it is again. =
Propylene glycol is used as a humectant for tabacco and as a lubricant fo=
r
refrigeration machines and other equipment used in the
food industy. It is used as a solvent for flats, waxes, resins, printing =
inks,
flavours and essences and in humadors (Sp?). Monopropylene glycol is not
toxic; the USP grade is used in the cosmetic, pharmaceutical and aroma
industries. =
Propylene glycol is produced by the hydrolysis of propylene oxide. The
reaction takes place readily at ambient temperature when catalized by sul=
furic
acid.
So it is a chemical material made by reaction instead of one made by
extraction of vegetable matter.
William Edwards
____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
1
Cindy Strnad on thu 18 jan 01
Hi, Will.
I've been sort of following this propylene glycol topic, so forgive me if
I've missed something. You say it's produced by the hydrolysis of propylene
oxide, but I still don't really understand what it *is*. I finally bought
some to try out in my sprayed glazes, BTW, but I'm not convinced I ought to
feel comfortable about *eating* it. It's in an anti-freeze bottle, for
goodness sake. I have this image of myself holding a delicate,
sparkling crystal wine glass, full of fluorescent green slimy stuff. Eeew.
I guess it's sort of an endemic additive, but why is it safe?
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
earthenv@gwtc.net
http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
Larry Phillips on thu 18 jan 01
Cindy Strnad wrote:
> It's in an anti-freeze bottle, for goodness sake. I have
> this image of myself holding a delicate, sparkling crystal wine
> glass, full of fluorescent green slimy stuff. Eeew.
This is probably the most widely quoted reason for people feeling
uncomfortable about it. "It's used in xxxx, and xxxx is
harmful/poisonous/carcinogenic/whatever, so it must be bad for people."
In fact, I would definitely NOT ingest propylene glycol from an
anti-freeze bottle. Why? Because it isn't necessarily pure propylene
glycol. Anything sold as anti-freeze has far less rigourous criteria for
judging it to be suitable for its intended use than the criteria for
judging its suitability in food or drink.
> I guess it's sort of an endemic additive, but why is it safe?
This is an interesting question indeed. Why is water safe? Sugar? Salt?
They are all safe (modulo inappropriate uses or huge dosages) because
they don't harm us.
It's an endemic additive precisely because it's safe, and has properties
that make it desirable for imparting certain qualities to many items.
--
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
Martin Howard on fri 19 jan 01
Glazes should have many constituents, additives, to be safe.
Food should have none other than the basic, organic item.
Trust the complicated glaze formulae.
Distrust the food packets with anything but the essential food.
Is that a reasonable hypothesis for a long, healthy life?
Martin Howard
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
England
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
iandol on sat 20 jan 01
These are those torpedo shaped articles which bring relief passing to =
those who suffer from deterioration of function the fundamental orifice =
? Correct?
Ivor.
Larry Phillips on sat 20 jan 01
iandol wrote:
>
>
>
> These are those torpedo shaped articles which bring relief passing to those who suffer from deterioration of function the fundamental orifice ? Correct?
Hmm... can't quite make out whether this is a serious question, but on
the chance it is, Altoids are a candy. A 'curiously strong mint',
according to their own advertising.
--
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
Pam on sun 21 jan 01
Uh....what do you mean by "fundamental orifice".........?
----- Original Message -----
From: "iandol"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 2:01 AM
Subject: Propylene Glycol
These are those torpedo shaped articles which bring relief passing to those
who suffer from deterioration of function the fundamental orifice ? Correct?
Ivor.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Janet Kaiser on mon 22 jan 01
No, Ivor! Quite wrong...
Unless it has recently been scientifically
proven that strong mints are good for piles too?
Judging by the way strong mint toothpaste burns
and stings, the very thought would no doubt
bring tears to the eyes to sufferers of that
nasty
condition...
I know that the "-oids" suffix does remind one
of haemorrhoids, but the Glycerine suppositories
have a different name. Having no need for them
myself, I forget what they are called. Similar
word though!
Altoids are similar to our Fisherman's
Friends... VERY strong.
Fundamental orifice? Surely secondary, even if
fundamentally important?
Janet Kaiser - Glad to be back receiving mail...
Many thanks once again to the back room boys at
ACERS and Joyce. Whatta team, eh?
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > These are those torpedo shaped articles
which bring relief passing to those who suffer
from deterioration of function the fundamental
orifice?
iandol on wed 24 jan 01
Dear Pam,
<>
"Buttocks" is the geographic location for this delicate and often stress =
injured part of the human anatomy. Do I hear the wincing from here among =
those who have stood on their feet for ever or trod the beat?
Ivor
iandol on wed 24 jan 01
Dear Janet Kaiser,
Fundament... Buttocks. Must be another word for it in the Welsh lexicon.
Regards,
Ivor. Wondering at the connection between strong mints and PPG.
Phyllis Tilton on tue 11 oct 05
Glad to know another source of the propylene glycol in Vince's message. I would have gone to a pharmacy that does compounding. It is a surfactant. An example of it's use --to put a few drops on the pill tile or parchment with a powder such as hydrocortisone. It lets the drug be mixed into a cream or an ointment without lumps. I think that must be the way it works with the mason stains.
Since we have become label readers with the foods we buy, there are some no-fat salad dressings that use this instead of olive oil or other fats. I don't want to consume it.
Phyllis Tilton
daisypet1@yahoo.com
www.artinview.com
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