Snail Scott on mon 29 jan 01
At 07:14 PM 1/29/01 -0000, you wrote:
>In the past 2 years I`ve visited two gift shop, art type gallerys who cater
>a lot to tourists. One proprieter wanted 300$, the other 500$ from the
>artist as sighn up fee
Lela
I've never encountered this before.
Sounds like a scam!
-Snail
Paul Lewing on mon 29 jan 01
lela martens wrote:
One proprieter wanted 300$, the other 500$ from the
> artist as sign up fee, or whatever. This was in addition to the gallery`s
> usual 50-50 split.
> I am new to the selling arena, but it seemed to me excessive, and that is
> what I meant by 100%plus. Maybe it`s common?
No kidding that's excessive! I think the 50-50 split on consignment by
itself is excessive, much less the annual or initiation fee! Let's hope
it doesn't get to be common. Hard to believe they get artists to fall
for that. And I'm sure artists are the only group of people who would
fall for it.
People always seem to justify these gouging schemes with, "But it's good
exposure". To which I day, "You can die of exposure".
Paul Lewing, Seattle
lela martens on mon 29 jan 01
Dear Tom, I realized yesterday that my post needed clarification,so sent
this explination, but my second post did not make it to the list. I should
have been more precise the first time. What I meant by 100% plus is this.
In the past 2 years I`ve visited two gift shop, art type gallerys who cater
a lot to tourists. One proprieter wanted 300$, the other 500$ from the
artist as sighn up fee, or whatever. One called it initiation fees, that
would cover first time paper work and etc. This could be paid up front, or
they would take it out of the first sales. I couldn`t understand that,
because it was to be paid yearly. This was in addition to the gallery`s
usual 50-50 split.
I am new to the selling arena, but it seemed to me excesive, and that is
what I meant by 100%plus. Maybe it`s common? Wish my second post had made it
through. :>) Lela
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Millie Carpenter on wed 31 jan 01
a gallery that I had things in a few years ago decided to charge a monthly
advertising fee, I think that it was either 15 or 25 a month on top of the 60/40
split. don't remember exactly because my friends and I pulled our work.
considering that this gallery had well over 100 artists, it seemed that the owners
had perfected a way to have artists stock the shelves for free ( consignment ) and
pay for some of the basic overhead (advertising).
and gallery owners on line, I am not knocking you or your policies, this is
just one of the reasons that I don't deal with that particular gallery any
longer. there is also a clothing consignment store in my area that has a 50/50
split, and if it doens't sell in three months, they donate it to goodwill and take
the deduction-- and you have to come in and pick up your check durring the first
10 days of the month, they don't mail checks. so I think that the greedy
scheming people who take advantage of you are everywhere. I am just getting very
selective about dealing with people so that we both benefit.
Millie in Md
Paul Lewing wrote:
> lela martens wrote:
> One proprieter wanted 300$, the other 500$ from the
> > artist as sign up fee, or whatever. This was in addition to the gallery`s
> > usual 50-50 split.
> > I am new to the selling arena, but it seemed to me excessive, and that is
> > what I meant by 100%plus. Maybe it`s common?
>
> No kidding that's excessive! I think the 50-50 split on consignment by
> itself is excessive, much less the annual or initiation fee! Let's hope
> it doesn't get to be common. Hard to believe they get artists to fall
> for that. And I'm sure artists are the only group of people who would
> fall for it.
> People always seem to justify these gouging schemes with, "But it's good
> exposure". To which I day, "You can die of exposure".
> Paul Lewing, Seattle
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
artimater on thu 1 feb 01
I can hear you guys groaning ....try to keep it down till you =
finish reading...OK?
What needs to happen is all you guys that are selling stuff cut =
rate gotta cut it out...It would be nice if you all would increase your =
prices by about 500%....sure you would price yourselves out of the =
market but if everyone did it the market would have to catch up or do =
without.....It kills me to go into a Kmart and see a mass-produced =
crappy salad bowl with a woogety decal selling for more than a salad =
bowl the same size at a recent art fair....of course the one at the art =
fair would have little things like ...originality, spirit, handmade etc.
As long as you guys insist on selling stuff to be able to say, "I =
sell everything I make, cause I'm so good" the problem will persist. =
Try to have a little dignity .....PLEASE....I think a lot of the problem =
lies with weekend warriors (does the shoe fit?) who make damn good money =
teaching ceramics to people who will never make a living doing ceramics. =
Since they work 50 hrs a week teaching they only make a hundred =
pieces a year, and they won't starve if they sell the stuff for =
pitance....Their fragile egos demand that "The public just snaps up my =
work"
Meanwhile I don't sell anything cause I worked commercial art for =
a long time and sold everything I did or would have lost my job...The =
last piece I did commercial sold for $46,000....I made it in 2 weeks and =
my time spent was worth about $400 gross to me.....It convinced me there =
had to be a better way....I now have a house full of Fine Art....But I =
don't sell much cause you smucks wanna keep your prices so low that my =
prices look ridiculous.....If the crappy bowl at Kmart is worth $40 then =
a real art bowl the same size should be worth at least $200....The way =
things are now the art piece would not sell cause right next door to it =
is an art piece going for $20......Then the smuck goes home and tells =
his wife "Yep sold out again today: I sure am an artist"
It would be so nice if you guys figured your prices on what it =
takes to live.....If you make 5 pieces a year you should price them =
at$10,000 per(I need $50,000 a year to be comfy)......If you make 100 =
pieces a year; price at $500....1000 pieces a year; $50. The idea is to =
net $50,000 so don't forget expences.....like taxes...Do any of you guys =
pay taxes on what you sell???......Any way I think the retail prices I =
see for good work are 95% assinine....
In the time of Michelangelo he lived in the same house as the ruler =
of the known world.....Now artists in America are expected to spend =
their lives in a study of art and live in a ditch....Doctors and lawyers =
train for 8 years and then noone questions their credidentials...After =
40 years of intense investigation of the field could I be any less =
professional than they?.......Print yourself up some kind of certificate =
and hang it on the wall if your ego needs massaging....."you do art =
because you love to do art" #%&*#$%*&%## try saying that to my face =
sometime
artimator
artimator@earthlink.net=20
"i only indulge when i've seen a snake, so i keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
Dai Scott on thu 1 feb 01
Hello, artimater -
Whoo-hoo!! Thank you, thank you! What a breath of fresh air! And, on the
other hand, is the potter who thinks an art-speak(translated "gobbleygook")
"artist's statement" attached to a piece is reason to double the price.
Somewhere in between, is a fair price for well-designed, pleasing work, done
by an accomplished potter or ceramic artist.
Dai Scott - Kelowna, BC - glad to be back on the list after a lengthy
hiatus.
Gayle Bair on thu 1 feb 01
Art.......
I have only one thing to say........It's "Shmucks"....... not smucks "But I
don't sell much cause you smucks wanna keep your prices so low that my
prices look ridiculous"
Great rant...... you reinforced my conviction not to lower my prices for the
art walk I am doing this weekend!
Just for fun, I might tag some pieces with outrageous prices!
Gayle Bair- Bainbridge Island WA
I can hear you guys groaning ....try to keep it down till you finish
reading...OK?
What needs to happen is all you guys that are selling stuff cut rate
gotta cut it out...It would be nice if you all would increase your prices by
about 500%....sure you would price yourselves out of the market but if
everyone did it the market would have to catch up or do without.....It kills
me to go into a Kmart and see a mass-produced crappy salad bowl with a
woogety decal selling for more than a salad bowl the same size at a recent
art fair....of course the one at the art fair would have little things like
....originality, spirit, handmade etc.snip>
MOLINA, RAFAEL on thu 1 feb 01
>I think a lot of the problem lies with weekend warriors (does the shoe
fit?) who make damn good >money teaching ceramics to people who will never
make a living doing ceramics
There are myriad reasons why "people" take ceramics courses. In my
experience at the community college level, very few of them are interested
in "making a living" with clay. Many students enroll in a college credit
course as an elective towards an Associate or Baccalaureate degree. There
are also non-credit continuing education courses for those who wish to
pursue ceramics as a hobby or avocation.
Whatever a student's motivation is for enrolling in a ceramics course, I
believe the classes are valuable in that students gain a greater
understanding and appreciation for the medium through the experience with
the materal and processes. While we may not affect a great number of
people, I don't think you (read: the independant studio artist) mind a more
enlightened buying public.
>Since they work 50 hrs a week teaching they only make a hundred pieces a
year, and they won't starve if they sell the stuff for pitance
This is a fair criticism, but what of the studio artist who won the lottery
or has an inheritance/trust fund or an insurance/legal settlement or a
working spouse/significant other/life partner. Do they get a pass?
Unfortunately, your studio doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are many
circumstances in which artists work and sell. And, it's true that some (NOT
ALL) faculty have the unfair advantage of the perquisite of materials,
utilities, and studio space and as a result some do undercut the
competition. I doubt this is going to change. It's a part of the market in
which you have chosen to participate.
Ciao,
Rafael Enrique
Rafael Molina, MFA
Assistant Professor of Art
Department of Music, Art, and Dance
Tarrant County College-Southeast Campus
2100 Southeast Parkway
Arlington, TX 76018-3144
(817) 515-3711
(817) 515-3189 fax
-----Original Message-----
From: artimater [mailto:artimater@HOME.COM]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 7:21 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: gallery pricing
I can hear you guys groaning ....try to keep it down till you finish
reading...OK?
What needs to happen is all you guys that are selling stuff cut rate
gotta cut it out...It would be nice if you all would increase your prices by
about 500%....sure you would price yourselves out of the market but if
everyone did it the market would have to catch up or do without.....It kills
me to go into a Kmart and see a mass-produced crappy salad bowl with a
woogety decal selling for more than a salad bowl the same size at a recent
art fair....of course the one at the art fair would have little things like
....originality, spirit, handmade etc.
As long as you guys insist on selling stuff to be able to say, "I
sell everything I make, cause I'm so good" the problem will persist. Try
to have a little dignity .....PLEASE....I think a lot of the problem lies
with weekend warriors (does the shoe fit?) who make damn good money teaching
ceramics to people who will never make a living doing ceramics. Since
they work 50 hrs a week teaching they only make a hundred pieces a year, and
they won't starve if they sell the stuff for pitance....Their fragile egos
demand that "The public just snaps up my work"
Meanwhile I don't sell anything cause I worked commercial art for a
long time and sold everything I did or would have lost my job...The last
piece I did commercial sold for $46,000....I made it in 2 weeks and my time
spent was worth about $400 gross to me.....It convinced me there had to be a
better way....I now have a house full of Fine Art....But I don't sell much
cause you smucks wanna keep your prices so low that my prices look
ridiculous.....If the crappy bowl at Kmart is worth $40 then a real art bowl
the same size should be worth at least $200....The way things are now the
art piece would not sell cause right next door to it is an art piece going
for $20......Then the smuck goes home and tells his wife "Yep sold out again
today: I sure am an artist"
It would be so nice if you guys figured your prices on what it takes
to live.....If you make 5 pieces a year you should price them at$10,000
per(I need $50,000 a year to be comfy)......If you make 100 pieces a year;
price at $500....1000 pieces a year; $50. The idea is to net $50,000 so
don't forget expences.....like taxes...Do any of you guys pay taxes on what
you sell???......Any way I think the retail prices I see for good work are
95% assinine....
In the time of Michelangelo he lived in the same house as the ruler of
the known world.....Now artists in America are expected to spend their lives
in a study of art and live in a ditch....Doctors and lawyers train for 8
years and then noone questions their credidentials...After 40 years of
intense investigation of the field could I be any less professional than
they?.......Print yourself up some kind of certificate and hang it on the
wall if your ego needs massaging....."you do art because you love to do art"
#%&*#$%*&%## try saying that to my face sometime
artimator
artimator@earthlink.net
"i only indulge when i've seen a snake, so i keep a supply of indulgences
and snakes handy"
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
pedresel on fri 2 feb 01
Wow! I think you are on to something. I'm up to making about 10 of my
coiled flower pots a year. Maybe you'd like to buy one from me for
$5,000? Then I could quit my day job... but I might make more then, so
the price would come down to maybe $500... don't want to make so many
that it would spoil the creative impulse.
Kidding aside, I was thinking the other day about how much I would sell
them for if I decided to sell my pots. The basic conclusion I came to
was there is no way I could afford to sell them for what my time is
worth (let's not get into whether I'm worth what I'm paid at the day
job...). I'd have to make too many compromises for efficiency or would
have to get a lot better at it.
It doesn't hurt to look at pricing from a bunch of different angles
including how much you want to earn, but it could lead to some not-very
relevant conclusions.
-- Evan in W. Richland WA where I actually saw the sun today!
artimater wrote:
>
> It would be so nice if you guys figured your prices on what it takes to live.....If you make 5 pieces a year you should price them at$10,000 per(I need $50,000 a year to be comfy)......If you make 100 pieces a year; price at $500....1000 pieces a year; $50.
Tom Wirt/Betsy Price on fri 2 feb 01
Artimater.....I'm getting the impression you were here on ClayArt
before , about 2 or 3 years ago. Not for very long, though. Dallas,
am I right? And you had the same negative attitude and housefull of
Dallas' finest artwork which wouldn't sell????
Sounds like (language wise) one and the same.
Tom Wirt
From: "artimater"
Subject: Re: gallery pricing
As long as you guys insist on selling stuff to be able to say,
"I sell everything I make, cause I'm so good" the problem will
persist. Try to have a little dignity .....PLEASE....I think a lot
of the problem lies with weekend warriors (does the shoe fit?) who
make
my time spent was worth about $400 gross to me.....It
convinced me there had to be a better way....I now have a house full
of Fine Art....But I don't sell much cause you smucks wanna keep your
prices so low that my prices look ridiculous.....If the crappy bowl at
Kmart is worth $40 then a real art bowl the same size should be worth
at least $200....The way things are now the art piece would not sell
cause right next door
on what it takes to live.....If you make 5 pieces a year you should
price them at$10,000 per(I need $50,000 a year to be comfy)......If
you make 100 pieces a year; price at $500....1000 pieces a year; $50.
The idea is to net $50,000 so don't forget expences.....like
taxes...Do any of you guys pay taxes on what you sell???......Any way
I think the retail prices I see for good work are 95% assinine....
In the time of Michelangelo he lived in the same
ferenc jakab on fri 2 feb 01
In the time of Michelangelo he lived in the same house as the ruler of
the known world.....
He was also rarely able to make the works that he wanted to. He was trapped
in a system where the patron dictated the work, the theme and even the
style.
Feri.
Robert Santerre on mon 5 feb 01
As I understand the story, the commission to paint the Sistine Chapel was actually
a sop to Michelangelo. The then Pope had passed Michelangelo by to award the
renovation or construction of (I think) St. Peter's Basilica to Brancusi?
Michelangelo was incensed over losing the Basilica commission and really did the
Chapel painting with much reluctance. One wonders what the work would have looked
like if he had done it out of personal inspiration and for free? Indeed, would it
have ever been done? I'm convinced that it's virtually impossible to anticipate
great art.
Maybe someone better versed in art history can edit this for me.
Bob
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
ferenc jakab wrote:
> In the time of Michelangelo he lived in the same house as the ruler of
> the known world.....
>
> He was also rarely able to make the works that he wanted to. He was trapped
> in a system where the patron dictated the work, the theme and even the
> style.
> Feri.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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