CINDI ANDERSON on tue 13 feb 01
Steve, I have been to Japan 10 times (before I was a potter) and have never seen
anybody there drink out a cup that didn't look like it was bought in Walmart.
Mostly they use imported Chinese junk. I even participated in a "traditional" tea
ceremony but it was touristy and fake and I don't recall the tea bowls being
anything special.
Everyone, please don't forget that Japan is no different than here (US). The small
majority are art lovers, just like here. The small majority appreciate ceramics.
If Mel has an appreciation of tea bowls from study, it was from studying with
pottery masters not from studying in Japan. I don't mean to insult anybody, but it
is amazing how we put countries up on a pedestal as if they are better than us and
not just a bunch of different types of people. It was the same with industry; I
worked with them on quality programs and their quality was quite different in
person than their reputation makes it out to be.
Cindi
>>>>> Steve said "I drink tea (loose, made in a Yi Xing pot) daily, but have never
been to
Japan or China. I have read only a couple books on the Asian tea traditions.
I guess I don't feel I understand them enough to really make them properly.
I'm afraid my teabowls would be handle-less cups for drinking tea--teabowls
in name only."
iandol on tue 13 feb 01
Tea Bowl is a ceramic form. Hence, potters will wish to create that =
form. That is a challenge.
Bonsai Planter is a ceramic form. Some potters may wish to explore the =
creation of such forms. That is a challenge.
But in both cases, the "Nature" of the pot which is created must be =
consonant with the philosophy of the culture which has need of those =
clay objects. So it is prudent to explore and learn the aesthetic =
nature of the Philosophies involved.
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
Who signs pots "Ivor" on rare occasions.
Dannon Rhudy on tue 13 feb 01
Vince said:
...... much more difficult to make a good tea bowl than it is
>to make a good mug with a handle. Our expectations....
........ hard to define,...... "Zen stuff" has nothing to do with it. ...
........ see if they agree regarding the challenges of making good
>teabowls. ....
I will go so far as to agree with Vince that a "good" tea bowl is much
more difficult, and takes a lot more experience to make, than a good
mug/handle. It is definitely not a "Zen" thing for me - what do I know
of Zen? But little, and that no doubt superficial. I find making small
handle-less drinking cups a pleasure. Mine are not chawan, nor
really even "tea bowls". They get called that because "small handle-less
drinking cups" is a clumsy kind of speech.
I also make mugs with handles. They require a bit more time,
but they are totally different in both idea and gesture.
The more I think about it, the less I am able to find any
comparisons in my mind, let
alone with words. They are simply very different things,
and handles/not handles has nothing at all to do with it.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Gayle Bair on tue 13 feb 01
I just made and fired, in my estimation,
my best teabowl so far. It's a simple piece.
It has a well fitting lid, a subtle design and (for me)
a sensuous glaze. It demands to be held and admired.
Now there are other pieces that came out of
my last firing that are beautiful but they
do not sing like this little teabowl.
Granted it may only sing to me.... but it has
already done more than most of my pieces.....
and that is to inspire better work.
It has afforded me new freedoms such as:
letting go of emotional attachments to
other pieces & a desire to attain a new level
of quality and craftsmanship in my work.
This teabowl does not have Asian traditions
as that was never my intention.
If would be great if someone would come up
with a name for an "American" teabowl.
I call it a teabowl for a lack of a
better one.
I'll probably take a digital photo of it
tomorrow. If my hubby gives me my Valentine's
request I will put it on my very own web site.
Gayle Bair-on Bainbridge Island WA will continue
to make these thangs no matter what they are called.
Cindy,
I think you hit it on the head here: a good teabowl is devilishly hard
to make. Maybe when I'm all grown up, I'll be allowed to make some.
I drink tea (loose, made in a Yi Xing pot) daily, but have never been to
Japan or China. I have read only a couple books on the Asian tea traditions.
I guess I don't feel I understand them enough to really make them properly.
I'm afraid my teabowls would be handle-less cups for drinking tea--teabowls
in name only.
Steve
--
Stephen Grimmer
Southern Illinois University at Carbondale
> From: Cindy Strnad
8< Snip
> Actually, it's my understanding that proper tea bowls are quite difficult
to
> make. I make a lot of tea bowls for test pots, but I'm sure none of them
are
> up to true ceremonial standards, as I've never seen a real tea bowl in 3-D
> space.
>
> Cindy Strnad
> Earthen Vessels Pottery
> RR 1, Box 51
> Custer, SD 57730
> USA
> earthenv@gwtc.net
> http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
Lee Jaffe on wed 14 feb 01
I agree with Vince. In three trips to Japan, I noticed that even
humble noodle shops and run-of-the-mill sushi joints served their
fare in handmade bowls and plates. I'm not saying that it was
museum quality work, but it had some integrity. This may be because,
in Japan, diners tend to pick up bowls and dishes in the course of
eating and therefore have a more intimate experience of the
pieces. Whereas in the West, if you eat properly, you may never
touch any of the crockery (with the exception of thumb and two
dainty fingers -- pinkies up! -- on the handle of a delicate china
teacup handle).
Also pottery stores are everywhere and crowded with middle-class
housewives looking over the pieces. At pottery fairs, people are
there buying sets for their homes, not art pieces for the shelves.
And pottery galleries in the high streets and department stores
are very fancy, well-presented establishments. I can't see how
anyone can spend time in Japan with out seeing the significantly
higher place ceramics holds generally in that culture.
-- Lee Jaffe
p.s. I've recently put together a page with photos of pottery making
demonstrations from visits to Japan, including teabowls.
http://www.jaffebros.com/lee/pottery/demos.html
> > Everyone, please don't forget that Japan is no different than here (US).
>The small
> > majority are art lovers, just like here. The small majority appreciate
>ceramics.
>
>Sorry Cindi, but despite your 10 trips to Japan, you are wrong about this.
>The level of appreciation for ceramics in Japan is vast in comparison to the
>United States. The best Japanese department stores constantly have
>exhibitions and sales of the work of Japanese potters, and the work usually
>brings very high prices. For over a thousand years ceramics have been among
>the highest of art forms in Japan. There is certainly a generation of
>Japanese who are immitating American pop culture and are very visible,
>especially in the big cities, but do not condemn all contemporary Japanese
>because of the bad taste of a few.
>
> > I don't mean to insult anybody, but it
> > is amazing how we put countries up on a pedestal as if they are better
>than us and
> > not just a bunch of different types of people.
>
>No one ever said that they are better than us. Many people simply
>acknowledge their tremendous mastery and appreciation of ceramics. If you
>missed that on your 10 trips to Japan, then you really missed a wonderful
>opportunity.
>Best wishes -
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>Tennessee Technological University
>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
>615/597-5376
>Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
>615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
>http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
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vince pitelka on wed 14 feb 01
> Everyone, please don't forget that Japan is no different than here (US).
The small
> majority are art lovers, just like here. The small majority appreciate
ceramics.
Sorry Cindi, but despite your 10 trips to Japan, you are wrong about this.
The level of appreciation for ceramics in Japan is vast in comparison to the
United States. The best Japanese department stores constantly have
exhibitions and sales of the work of Japanese potters, and the work usually
brings very high prices. For over a thousand years ceramics have been among
the highest of art forms in Japan. There is certainly a generation of
Japanese who are immitating American pop culture and are very visible,
especially in the big cities, but do not condemn all contemporary Japanese
because of the bad taste of a few.
> I don't mean to insult anybody, but it
> is amazing how we put countries up on a pedestal as if they are better
than us and
> not just a bunch of different types of people.
No one ever said that they are better than us. Many people simply
acknowledge their tremendous mastery and appreciation of ceramics. If you
missed that on your 10 trips to Japan, then you really missed a wonderful
opportunity.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Lee Love on thu 15 feb 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "vince pitelka"
>
> Sorry Cindi, but despite your 10 trips to Japan, you are wrong about this.
> The level of appreciation for ceramics in Japan is vast in comparison to
the
> United States.
Vince,
This is true. Japan is the land of pottery lovers. There is
no place in the world where pottery is more venerated.
I've mentioned before that pottery shows up on games shows and also
on art shows, right next to Rembrant, Picasso and Hokusai and Hiroshige.
On the other hand, in Minnesota and Wisconsin, the creative level of
potters is pretty high. I think mostly, because of the influence of
Warren MacKenzie. When you think of the fewer number of potters in that
region, it is pretty remarkable that there are so many there of great
talent.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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CINDI ANDERSON on sat 17 feb 01
Well it's a good thing there are people on this list to tell me what I saw. And to
think I thought I had my own eyes and my own brain...
Did it ever occur to you that you see what you are looking for? If you are a
potter, you will find other potters, etc. You can say the same thing in this or
any other country.
I traveled with many Japanese businessmen.
- They took me to Kyoto because I requested it. I poured over pottery in an area
famous for pottery, deciding what to buy, while they were bored and looked at the
junk shops.
- They took me to a zen temple to meditate because I requested it. They had never
meditated with a zen master before that.
- They took me to a place that was "famous" for making pottery while the men played
golf. Basically it was a paint-your-own ceramics shop. I think there was
interesting ceramic history at that place, but nobody could tell me what it was.
- They took me to museums; I looked at pottery and they were bored and moved onto
other areas.
- I will say that the gifts of sake always came in nice ceramic bottles.
I did not say there was no ceramics there. I said just because there is a certain
history there does not mean everyone appreciates it. And it is certainly easy to
miss if you are not looking for it. Based on what I hear here about Japanese
ceramics I would expect something very different than what I saw.
I don't know what % of Japanese practice what we think of as "traditional" Japanese
culture, but those that work at large corporations don't seem to be among them in
large numbers.
By the way, these men were between 30 and 50 years of age. not teen agers..
Maybe I shouldn't have said "the small majority appreciate art/ceramics" because I
don't know the numbers. But it certainly is not everyone.
Cindi
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