Terrance Lazaroff on mon 26 mar 01
Sorry to all. The post got away before proof reading.
Terrance
-----Original Message-----
From: Terrance Lazaroff
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, March 26, 2001 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: play and money
>Mel;
>
>You don't stand alone. I could not be more in agreement with what you are
>saying. Many clay programs were cancelled because the director or the only
>prof. did not put up the good fight. They saw it coming, yet they let it
>pass and thus clay programs were cut. The administration look at clay art
>as a leisure, time filling, activity that cost far more than it brings in.
>
>Those who fought the fight and won are the real heroes.
>They did not say that they were there to encourage play. They were there
to
>teach creativity, entrepreneur, design, manufacturing, inventory
>control, quality control, safety in the work place, co-operation, team
>building, discipline, cleanliness, physics, chemistry, colour theory, and
>much more. These disciplines are not play. They go towards
professionalism.
>
>Some relate play to creativity. How wrong.
>
>A child plays and cares not about creating. He has someone to care for his
>basic needs.
>
>An artist, like any manufacturing company, must produce. If he does not,
he
>will have to find a second job or will have to go without eating for a
>while.
>It may look like the artist is playing. He may enjoy the challenge of his
>job. Nevertheless. The artist is working to make a living. It is a
>business.
>
>Terrance
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
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melpots@pclink.com.
mel jacobson on mon 26 mar 01
i hate to be crass, talk of money.
and, realize it is not an end all, or be all.
but, find me any university art department in the united states
that is paid the same as the medical school,
the law school, engineering school and mathematics. or, even
comes close. look at the bottom of the pay scale, that is where
you will find them....
what is the perception of the art department..?
`oh, hell, they just play around down there.` we tolerate them.
that really pisses me off. and often the staff does that
to themselves. again, i realize there are pockets of great
professionalism around, but, what is the general perception?
you cannot feed your kids with that philosophical position.
i like words like `joyful occupation`. `satisfying occupation`.
`rewarding, creative occupation`. i just don't like to associate
the word `play` with what we do. that is my bias. i will stick
with it, it is mine. i own that. and, i have just as much fun
as nils in my work, perhaps more.
julia roberts, an almost no talent, just won the oscar.
she `loves her life and work, happy girl`. does she get
paid?
it goes back a way, but when i applied for a sabbatical, i was
denied. one board member said, `why does he have to go to
japan to `play` in mud`? (that was in the local paper.) i had to
stand in front of that board and defend my profession. it still
pisses me off. two principals ordered their ph.d. degrees from
`macpherson`college. mail order. no one questioned that.
i did not show up at that meeting in my dirty boots, clay in my
crotch. i dressed the part, carried a brief case. put on a show.
i got my sabbatical. it was not easy. they were very embarrassed
and apologized to me. i do not think anyone in that school district has
ever done a sabbatical year that was more important than what i did.
but, what was the perception? play.
so, it is my bias.
i own it.
mel
perhaps i stand alone in this argument. but, i will continue to
stand for the quality profession of artists.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
CINDI ANDERSON on mon 26 mar 01
Come on, Mel. To use Julia Roberts as an example is ludicrous. The Screen Actors
Guild alone has hundreds of thousands of members, and less than a tenth of a
percent make a living above the poverty level. In the old days one could be an
actor and make a living, but today it is almost impossible. There are a couple
hundred actors that get paid excessively, not because they are actors but because
they are "personalities", and the rest get crumbs. They work because they love it,
just like you do.
You would have been better to use the example to illustrate that in most
professions, there are those who make excessive amounts of money, far beyond their
value. It is true of doctors, lawyers, athletes, business people, writers,
entertainers and artists (yes, artists too.) This says something about our
society. Maybe that we value fame above all else. Maybe that we are too
incompetent to make our own choices, so we have to follow whomever is popular,
because we can't tell who is actually good.
Instead, your example just showed that you have some bitterness to get over. Make
peace with it and move on. On the other hand, maybe that makes you a better
teacher or a better potter, so go ahead and stay bitter if you want.
Do you really think anybody on ClayArt would argue that artists deserve to make
money? You're preachin' to the choir.
Cindi
mel jacobson wrote:
> julia roberts, an almost no talent, just won the oscar.
> she `loves her life and work, happy girl`. does she get
> paid?
>
Khaimraj Seepersad on mon 26 mar 01
Hello to All ,
Mel ,
there is another line tackling this problem of Fine Art being
degraded to a non-profession .
My heart goes out to you , there is considerable opposition
to your point of view.
Realise that if Craft ever became what it was before , many
would be without an excuse to do what they do . So they
resist all attempts to put the Science and Training , back into
Pottery or Fine Art .
Though I enjoy Oil Painting to the point of seeming to play , I did
start my training from 11 years of age and decided to become
a Fine Artist at the age of 14 years. The studying was intense
and much had to be given up on the path - most of it being
along the lines of a social life . The training still continues.
The normal training of a Traditional Painter will sift out the frauds ,
the express yourself person , the easy buck types . They can't
handle discipline or hard work ---- everything has to be FUN .
I wouldn't give up being a Fine Artist and I don't care if I am
rich and famous , just that I do my best as a craftsman .
History can decide if there was any Fine Art in there .
Keep up your postings , they make sense .
Khaimraj
-----Original Message-----
From: mel jacobson
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: 26 March 2001 3:18
Subject: play and money
>i hate to be crass, talk of money.
>and, realize it is not an end all, or be all.
>
>but, find me any university art department in the united states
>that is paid the same as the medical school,
>the law school, engineering school and mathematics. or, even
>comes close. look at the bottom of the pay scale, that is where
>you will find them....
>
>what is the perception of the art department..?
>`oh, hell, they just play around down there.` we tolerate them.
>
>that really pisses me off. and often the staff does that
>to themselves. again, i realize there are pockets of great
>professionalism around, but, what is the general perception?
>you cannot feed your kids with that philosophical position.
>
>i like words like `joyful occupation`. `satisfying occupation`.
>`rewarding, creative occupation`. i just don't like to associate
>the word `play` with what we do. that is my bias. i will stick
>with it, it is mine. i own that. and, i have just as much fun
>as nils in my work, perhaps more.
>
>julia roberts, an almost no talent, just won the oscar.
>she `loves her life and work, happy girl`. does she get
>paid?
>
>it goes back a way, but when i applied for a sabbatical, i was
>denied. one board member said, `why does he have to go to
>japan to `play` in mud`? (that was in the local paper.) i had to
>stand in front of that board and defend my profession. it still
>pisses me off. two principals ordered their ph.d. degrees from
>`macpherson`college. mail order. no one questioned that.
>
>i did not show up at that meeting in my dirty boots, clay in my
>crotch. i dressed the part, carried a brief case. put on a show.
>i got my sabbatical. it was not easy. they were very embarrassed
>and apologized to me. i do not think anyone in that school district has
>ever done a sabbatical year that was more important than what i did.
>but, what was the perception? play.
>so, it is my bias.
>i own it.
>mel
>perhaps i stand alone in this argument. but, i will continue to
>stand for the quality profession of artists.
>
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Wesley C. Rolley on mon 26 mar 01
At 04:17 AM 3/26/01 -0600, you wrote:
>i hate to be crass, talk of money.
>and, realize it is not an end all, or be all.
I will never live long enough to be the potter that Mel or Nils (or any
number of others who frequent this list.). I have lived long enough to
feel qualified to talk about this subject. I think that the key here is
learning to be creative.
I started with music. I took piano lessons from age 5 until I was 17.
Picked up an old cornet that my brother had once played. Attended a band
camp after 8th grade. At the end, the high school band teacher asked me if
I wanted to be in the varsity band. I said, "sure". He said, "I have 7
trumpet players who are better than you and no tuba players. How badly do
you want to be in the varsity band?" Three years later I was first chair
tuba in the Arizona All State Orchestra and then it was on to college and
later to an Army band.
I also "played" in the theatre. Again, I started in highschool, majored in
theatre in college and even got my MA in Theatre from Northwestern Univ.
back in the days when the academically inclined (Jerry Ohrbach) went to
Northwestern and those who weren't performed at Second City and Chicago had
a lot going for it.
Then, I got married and had to think about how I was going to be the
breadwinner so that my wife could continue to be an artist. I ended up in
IBM, but there was no reason that I could not find an outlet for creativity
in that profession either, whether is was designing a system to track parts
usage on aircraft or writing the specific plans for the conversion of an
airline from one reservation system to another or for the interconnection
of major divisional communications networks within a giant corporation, I
was able to find an element of creativity in what I did. It was not enough
just to do things by a flowchart, but to learn to see the interconection of
events or processes that others missed, or to ask a simiple question for
which no one yet had the answer, it is possible to be creative in all that
I did.
That was one lesson that I did not learn in kindergarten.
Wes
Wes Rolley
"Happiness is to be fully engaged in the activity that you believe in and,
if you are very good at it, well that's a bonus." -- Henry Moore
http://www.refpub.com
Cindy Strnad on mon 26 mar 01
No, Mel.
You do not stand alone in your position. While it's true that what we do is
enjoyable, it is not play. It is work. Does anyone honestly believe we would
be at it for 8-12 hours a day, every day, if it were play? If you play like
that, then it becomes work--like the difference between an Olympic athlete
and going swimming on the weekend.
And if I go to a school board meeting, well, I'll be the best dressed person
there, whether I plan to speak or not. Not ostentatiously so--just slightly
above the average. I used to cover these meetings for the newspaper and I
was always better turned out than any of the board members except the supt.,
who always wore a nice suit. Being well and tastefully dressed gives you the
edge in a situation like that. Why throw away your edge?
That aside, isn't it foolish that in our society work is so often perceived
as needing to be an unpleasant and unenjoyable task? Most people spend their
lives doing something they either feel neutral toward or actively dislike.
How sad. We only get to do this once. Shouldn't we find joy in our work as
well as our play?
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
earthenv@gwtc.net
http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
Gail Dapogny on mon 26 mar 01
All of these anecdotes and observations about the arts, arts teaching,
money, and "play" really hit home for many of us.
Here at the University of Michigan, the two "bottom" departments in pay are
-- you guessed it -- music and art. (The third one up is Nursing because
it includes such a large percentage of women! However, they are now
unionized.)
A sort of funny anecdote (only sort of) that you all may appreciate; my
husband has a distant cousin (very distant, especially now!!) visiting who
works as some kind of engineer in the far east, especially Thailland and
Indonesia. He was very gregarious and pleasant, and stayed home to chat
with me (while my husband was out playing at teaching his music classes at
the university).
"THE COUSIN" (as I now refer to him) mentioned that he has a sister-in-law
with young kids who was recently separated from her husband. He said, "I'd
like to help her get set up in some sort of craft, you know, like what
you're doing; just to earn a little pin money." I started with
characteristic ernestness to explain that it is not an instantly acquired
expertise (hah!), that I'm dead serious about it (even though it is "play"
and I love it), and that it costs quite a lot to have and maintain
equipment. ETC. You can appreciate the trend of my part of the
conversation.
He blithely waved his hand and said, "Oh, I wasn't talking about anything
real sophisticated or fancy..." then, gesturing casually at some of my
best pots (you'll love this part), "just the ability to knock out some
things like these and sell them at the market."
I kid you not! I was actually too speechless to respond!
----Gail
>i hate to be crass, talk of money.
>and, realize it is not an end all, or be all.
>
>but, find me any university art department in the united states
>that is paid the same as the medical school,
>the law school, engineering school and mathematics. or, even
>comes close. look at the bottom of the pay scale, that is where
>you will find them....
>
>what is the perception of the art department..?
>`oh, hell, they just play around down there.` we tolerate them.
>
>that really pisses me off. and often the staff does that
>to themselves. again, i realize there are pockets of great
>professionalism around, but, what is the general perception?
>you cannot feed your kids with that philosophical position.
>
>i like words like `joyful occupation`. `satisfying occupation`.
>`rewarding, creative occupation`. i just don't like to associate
>the word `play` with what we do. that is my bias. i will stick
>with it, it is mine. i own that. and, i have just as much fun
>as nils in my work, perhaps more.
>
>julia roberts, an almost no talent, just won the oscar.
>she `loves her life and work, happy girl`. does she get
>paid?
>
>it goes back a way, but when i applied for a sabbatical, i was
>denied. one board member said, `why does he have to go to
>japan to `play` in mud`? (that was in the local paper.) i had to
>stand in front of that board and defend my profession. it still
>pisses me off. two principals ordered their ph.d. degrees from
>`macpherson`college. mail order. no one questioned that.
>
>i did not show up at that meeting in my dirty boots, clay in my
>crotch. i dressed the part, carried a brief case. put on a show.
>i got my sabbatical. it was not easy. they were very embarrassed
>and apologized to me. i do not think anyone in that school district has
>ever done a sabbatical year that was more important than what i did.
>but, what was the perception? play.
>so, it is my bias.
>i own it.
>mel
>perhaps i stand alone in this argument. but, i will continue to
>stand for the quality profession of artists.
>
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
Terrance Lazaroff on mon 26 mar 01
Mel;
You don't stand alone. I could not be more in agreement with what you are
saying. Many clay programs were canceled because the director or the only
prof. did not put up the good fight. They saw it comming, yet they let it
pass and thus clay programs were cut. The administration look at clay art
as a leisure, time filling, activity that cost far more than it brings in.
Those who fought the fight and won are the real heros.
They did not say that they were there to encourage play. They were there to
teach creativity, entreprenuership, design, manufacturing, inventory
control, quality control, safety in the work place, co-operation, team
building, dicipline, cleanliness, phisics, chemistry, colour theory, and
much more. These diciplines are not play. They go towards professionlism.
Some relate play to creativity. How wrong.
A child plays and cares not about creating. He has someone to care for his
basic needs.
An artist, like any manufacturing company, must produce. If he does not, he
will have to find a second job or will have to go without eating for a
while.
It may look like the artist is playing. He may enjoy the challenge of his
job. Nevertheless. The artist is working to make a living. It is a
business.
Terrance
Lee Love on tue 27 mar 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
: but, find me any university art department in the united states
: that is paid the same as the medical school,
Mel, you might be happy to know that doctors and lawyers get paid less here
in Japan. :^) I understand that it is also true in other parts of the
world, out side of the USofA.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
Interested in Folkcraft? Signup:
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Gayle Bair on tue 27 mar 01
Hi Gail,
Should you ever have the opportunity in the future with anyone who give you
this line of B.S. I heartily recommend you take them into your studio. Throw
a simple shape then sit them down and let them try it! That experience
should give them some perspective!
When I lived in Colorado occasionally someone came into the gallery/studio
and complained about the prices or they didn't see exactly what they
wanted.. color, shape etc. and was evidently a royal pain in the butt. This
type of person will never be satisfied with what you make for them. Several
times we suggested they take a class so they could make it themselves and
some of them actually took a class. It was a great experience for them and
us.
They walked away with a new respect and appreciation for potters plus a few
of them actually made what they wanted.
Regarding the attitudes of the arts.... I guess we just need to let time
change minds. In a few thousand years your excavated pots will be worth
millions!->
What do surgeons, engineers, politicians, millionaires and billionaires fill
their homes with.......... music and art.
A friend of mine is hosting a foreign exchange student. She is brilliant and
is breezing through the academic programs here. However what she really
wants and is enjoying and finding the most fulfilling are the art classes.
She had none at home. She has casually mentioned that it will be hard for
her to leave!
Philosophy, mathematics etc may be the mind, physical sciences may be the
body but art is the soul and without soul.. you have nothing.
Gayle Bair- Bainbridge Island WA USA
Gail wrote>
All of these anecdotes and observations about the arts, arts teaching,
money, and "play" really hit home for many of us.
Here at the University of Michigan, the two "bottom" departments in pay are
-- you guessed it -- music and art. (The third one up is Nursing because
it includes such a large percentage of women! However, they are now
unionized.)
A sort of funny anecdote (only sort of) that you all may appreciate; my
husband has a distant cousin (very distant, especially now!!) visiting who
works as some kind of engineer in the far east, especially Thailland and
Indonesia. He was very gregarious and pleasant, and stayed home to chat
with me (while my husband was out playing at teaching his music classes at
the university).
"THE COUSIN" (as I now refer to him) mentioned that he has a sister-in-law
with young kids who was recently separated from her husband. He said, "I'd
like to help her get set up in some sort of craft, you know, like what
you're doing; just to earn a little pin money." I started with
characteristic ernestness to explain that it is not an instantly acquired
expertise (hah!), that I'm dead serious about it (even though it is "play"
and I love it), and that it costs quite a lot to have and maintain
equipment. ETC. You can appreciate the trend of my part of the
conversation.
He blithely waved his hand and said, "Oh, I wasn't talking about anything
real sophisticated or fancy..." then, gesturing casually at some of my
best pots (you'll love this part), "just the ability to knock out some
things like these and sell them at the market."
I kid you not! I was actually too speechless to respond!
----Gail
Elca Branman on mon 2 apr 01
Maybe we should start using the word, labor, as well as work and play.
We all know that there is labor attached to our joyous immersion..I hate
scraping kiln shelves, I'm not wild about recycling scrap clay, and
truthfully, wouldn't it be wonderful to have some one else doing the
weighing and mixing of OUR glazes..
Every aspect of clay doesn't charge me, but the pleasure of giving
myself away to the possibilities of this infinitely malleable medium is
so joyous that for me it is the eternal sandbox of discovery about the
world.
Does this mean that I don't recognize that i have to pay my bills,
guarantee my plates from poisoning people, or that i live in a real
world? Of course not.I
take great pride in what i make and it represents me, to the world. Elca
Branman.. in Sarasota,Florida,USA
elcab1@juno.com
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