Nils Lou on sun 25 mar 01
NONSENSE!
My dear friend, Mel
Often you have it right, but this time I must quarrel with your
position
about art and play. Life itself can be often too serious. Talk about art
being hard work, serious business seems to me too much interested in
worrying about what the public thinks. Why not let them think we are
having a hell of a good time. I am. Am I a serious artist? Who cares? I do
what I do because it is EXACTLY like play. It is the same feeling I had
when I did play with my cars in the sand box; when I did scratch funny
drawings with my crayons. I was INTENT on my play. I believe it is
necessary to play in order to be creative. I t centers me in to an
internal focus that is essential to my ability to make objects capable of
surprising me. This is what I look for and find interesting and
worthwhile. When I get too serious I make dull work. I have done both and
I prefer work that comes from play. I dont care a wit what the public
thinks about how or what I do.
When I work with students I try to provide an opportunity for them
to re-live the childhood play experience without having the burden of
proving something, like how serious they are about art.
Personally, I dont think it has anything to do with how healthy
one is psychologically either. Great art has been created by very
disturbed individuals and by well adjusted people. Fill in the names
yourself.
Life is too short; there is so much clay and so little time. My
life is about having fun and Im sorta pleased that Im able to enjoy it.
Im sorry you have been raised in the cultural desert of Minnesotan work
ethic. That Scandanavian heritage we share has worn you down, Im afraid.
Scrap the lutefisk, eat some dessert first. Compliment Sharlene on how
pretty she is--and go out to your pristine studio and make a mess. We can
kiss and make up at NCECA. your pal, Nils
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, mel jacobson wrote:
> is art something we `play at`?
> is graduate school play?
> is a profession `play`?
>
> i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
>
> is your life work play?
>
> i think the world should demand more from the arts,
> and artists should demand more from themselves. just the
> term play feeds into the public perception that art is not
> serious, it is a profession of children.
>
> that offends me. i have spent almost 40 years teaching
> that art is important, it is real and it is hard work. to be
> an artist takes years of dedication and intellect. it is not
> working out ones `inner self`.....to be a great musician or
> writer takes genius, we do not compare Beethoven with silly
> child like images scratched from a ball of clay. it takes a
> great deal more.
>
> the great masters started with intellect and talent and
> then genius. in most cases, in my opinion, the problems some
> had only hindered the genius, it did not extend it.
>
> healthy, happy, well fed adjusted genius is productive.
> those with deep seated problems are usually self destructive.
> the production ends early.
> mel
>
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
CINDI ANDERSON on sun 25 mar 01
Mel
I understand how you are offended, if you think people don't take what you do
seriously. But I think most people think of "play" as something you love to do, as
opposed to "work" which is something you have to do so you have money to play.
Unlike most other jobs and professions, nobody becomes an artist for the money.
You hear the occasional doctor or businessman say that their job is not like work,
it is like playing. But you hear this most from people who are artists, actors,
writers, etc. I think to be doing something you love, so you think it is fun, is
considered play, and it is something most people admire and are even jealous of.
That doesn't mean you don't work hard.
You say "is your life work play?" I answer "I hope so. That is the goal."
Cindi
mel jacobson wrote:
> is art something we `play at`?
> is graduate school play?
> is a profession `play`?
>
> i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
>
> is your life work play?
>
> i think the world should demand more from the arts,
> and artists should demand more from themselves. just the
> term play feeds into the public perception that art is not
> serious, it is a profession of children.
>
> that offends me. i have spent almost 40 years teaching
> that art is important, it is real and it is hard work. to be
> an artist takes years of dedication and intellect. it is not
> working out ones `inner self`.....to be a great musician or
> writer takes genius, we do not compare Beethoven with silly
> child like images scratched from a ball of clay. it takes a
> great deal more.
mel jacobson on sun 25 mar 01
is art something we `play at`?
is graduate school play?
is a profession `play`?
i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
is your life work play?
i think the world should demand more from the arts,
and artists should demand more from themselves. just the
term play feeds into the public perception that art is not
serious, it is a profession of children.
that offends me. i have spent almost 40 years teaching
that art is important, it is real and it is hard work. to be
an artist takes years of dedication and intellect. it is not
working out ones `inner self`.....to be a great musician or
writer takes genius, we do not compare Beethoven with silly
child like images scratched from a ball of clay. it takes a
great deal more.
the great masters started with intellect and talent and
then genius. in most cases, in my opinion, the problems some
had only hindered the genius, it did not extend it.
healthy, happy, well fed adjusted genius is productive.
those with deep seated problems are usually self destructive.
the production ends early.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Karen Sullivan on mon 26 mar 01
There are a lot of definitions for play in the dictionary.
I think a major consideration is trying to prevent what we
know from limiting our ability to discover something new...so
the implication of play is that there are no rules...no
objectives...the opportunity to explore to the best of our
abilities to let go of what we know in order to find something
unexpected. That is a tough job...but play implies to me a
letting go.
The wisdom I have acquired in my body, about "how to make"
has a profound impact on what I am able to make.
As does the physical reality of my body impact what I can make.
Also the synapses in my brain, which determine how I
problem solve.
My history of objects, which I retreat into the comfort of
making for familiar territory.
So playing seems to me to be an effort to let go as much
as possible...which I do with serious determination and tricks.
Uh, lets see, if I exhaust myself so I am unthinking...
kinda zen...but sometimes it works.
Using tools that are inefficient/crude
I search for strategies to confuse my physically skilled practice and
wisdom for something fresh and uh, yup, playful.
Take risks in process, in new terrain..
may be more LIP service than actual fact...but in a perfect world.
There is also the process of repetition and time that causes
new solutions to randomly develop and evolve...that are not visibly
apparent at the moment, but with comparison and reflection are glaring.
bamboo karen playfully moving into the night
Karin Hurt on mon 26 mar 01
what about teachers who don't take teaching seriously because it happens to
be a Community college and who call us "not real students". What about the
student who wants to learn, but lives in the middle of nowhere and has to
make do with what there is, a tired teacher who plays at teaching?
Gayle Bair on mon 26 mar 01
THANK YOU Nils!
I didn't want to get embroiled in this discussion
again. Now I don't have to as you have said it
eloquently. You have expressed exactly how I feel!
No offence to those who disagree but I totally
agree with Nils.
Gayle Bair- Bainbridge Island WA
NONSENSE!
My dear friend, Mel
Often you have it right, but this time I must quarrel with your
position
about art and play. Life itself can be often too serious. Talk about art
being hard work, serious business seems to me too much interested in
worrying about what the public thinks. Why not let them think we are
having a hell of a good time. I am. Am I a serious artist? Who cares? I do
what I do because it is EXACTLY like play. It is the same feeling I had
when I did play with my cars in the sand box; when I did scratch funny
drawings with my crayons. I was INTENT on my play. I believe it is
necessary to play in order to be creative. I t centers me in to an
internal focus that is essential to my ability to make objects capable of
surprising me. This is what I look for and find interesting and
worthwhile. When I get too serious I make dull work. I have done both and
I prefer work that comes from play. I dont care a wit what the public
thinks about how or what I do.
When I work with students I try to provide an opportunity for them
to re-live the childhood play experience without having the burden of
proving something, like how serious they are about art.
Personally, I dont think it has anything to do with how healthy
one is psychologically either. Great art has been created by very
disturbed individuals and by well adjusted people. Fill in the names
yourself.
Life is too short; there is so much clay and so little time. My
life is about having fun and Im sorta pleased that Im able to enjoy it.
Im sorry you have been raised in the cultural desert of Minnesotan work
ethic. That Scandanavian heritage we share has worn you down, Im afraid.
Scrap the lutefisk, eat some dessert first. Compliment Sharlene on how
pretty she is--and go out to your pristine studio and make a mess. We can
kiss and make up at NCECA. your pal, Nils
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, mel jacobson wrote:
> is art something we `play at`?
> is graduate school play?
> is a profession `play`?
>
> i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
>
> is your life work play?
>
> i think the world should demand more from the arts,
> and artists should demand more from themselves. just the
> term play feeds into the public perception that art is not
> serious, it is a profession of children.
>
> that offends me. i have spent almost 40 years teaching
> that art is important, it is real and it is hard work. to be
> an artist takes years of dedication and intellect. it is not
> working out ones `inner self`.....to be a great musician or
> writer takes genius, we do not compare Beethoven with silly
> child like images scratched from a ball of clay. it takes a
> great deal more.
>
> the great masters started with intellect and talent and
> then genius. in most cases, in my opinion, the problems some
> had only hindered the genius, it did not extend it.
>
> healthy, happy, well fed adjusted genius is productive.
> those with deep seated problems are usually self destructive.
> the production ends early.
> mel
>
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>
Merrie Boerner on mon 26 mar 01
"Play"....According to Webster...
Musicians PLAY instruments.
To amuse oneself......
to touch lightly, finger.......
to contend, or take part, hence to gamble......
to act or perform......
to move or function freely, esp. within prescribed limits......
to do or execute, esp. for amusement, profit, or education.......
TO BRING ABOUT; WORK; EFFECT.
Mel,
I must have missed the post that mentioned play and got you started on this
again.
I think you are a bit testy over the word "play". When potters are talking,
and
saying how much they "enjoy" throwing.....sometimes it helps to talk about
work as if it were fun....like play.....forgetting for a minute the hours of
glazing and cleaning and more WORK type requirements in the course of a day.
I do know the difference between work and play.......My least favorite
things, the things I HAVE to do. ....like shelf grinding, or pricing
pots....that is WORK. However, I think of gathering wood, stacking the
kiln, stoking the kiln for days as very enjoyable....I'm amusing myself,
taking part, gambling, performing, moving and functioning freely within
prescribed limits.....for EDUCATION, EFFECT, AND PROFIT ! Sounds like
play to me.
See you very Soon !
Merrie
Lori Leary on mon 26 mar 01
I have to say that I agree with our mel on this one......One of the first
things our mel taught me (as my very first mentor) was how important it is
to present our work and ourselves seriously.
When I made the transition from a neonatal ICU nurse to a full time
potter/teacher, it was difficult for my husband and kids to take it (and
me!) seriously. In their view, staying late at work to take care of a
critically ill patient was a LOT different from staying late to fire a kiln
or meet a commission deadline. My husband, being a practical engineering
type, had to learn that salary does not determine the worth of one's chosen
work. They came around, and are (if I may say so) proud of me and what I
have managed to accomplish.
In doing one's work, there are times to be serious, to be intent, to be
single-minded as well as times to be playful, even silly. A professional
knows how to strike that balance.
Seriously Getting Ready for NCECA,
Lori L.
lleary@sccoast.net
Pawleys Island SC
Steve Mills on mon 26 mar 01
Absolutely.
My Father (a Wood Engraver, Etcher and Aquatintist, and always drawing)
maintained, rightly I feel, that all Art is not a job but a way of life.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , mel jacobson writes
>is art something we `play at`?
>is graduate school play?
>is a profession `play`?
>
>i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
>
>is your life work play?
>
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Elca Branman on mon 26 mar 01
Play is the name that we adults put on the work that children have to do
...they explore their universe, find out how things an d people work,
learn what their limits are and when and how they can stretch them.
It is an unself-conscious, often joyous exploration of possibilities
and limitations in material things and human beings. Children use all
their energies and mind when they are playing.(.I am not talking here
about sitting in front of a TV or spending umpty hours a day with a hand
held toy.)
They are learning mastery of their world and their whole heart and mind
is involved.
As an adult, I explore the world of clay, as unself consciously as I
can..as joyously as I can and I learn by making errors the first time,
and not repeating them. It gives me great pleasure and satisfaction and I
lose myself in the problems that I set myself. I bring whatever strengths
I can muster to my self imposed task, exactly as I did as a child.
Because I am an adult, I have some discipline and set new standards for
myself as I progress. So does the kid who makes it a rule that jumping
from the height of 3 steps is no longer enough to get in the game;the new
four step rule now applies.
Play is a highly honorable term..it doesn't mean dabble,it doesn't mean
toying with,it does include joy.
My sandbox is the clay studio
Elca Branman
Elcab1@juno.com
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:02:09 -0600 mel jacobson
writes:
> is art something we `play at`?
> is graduate school play?
> is a profession `play`?
>
> i like to think of art as a profession, not a toy.
>
> is your life work play?
>
> i think the world should demand more from the arts,
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
Elca Branman.. in Sarasota,Florida,USA
elcab1@juno.com
________________________________________________________________
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Khaimraj Seepersad on mon 26 mar 01
Hello to All ,
Karin ,
you could just teach yourself . We have no set up for Pottery down
here . The native potters [ from India ] , use basic clay, hand picked
clean and fired in semi open kilns . No pottery supplies either .
You either , decide you want to do Pottery and put your mind to it
and just do it or give up.
The US is filled with Great Potters , talk , travel , visit see , and use
the library interloan services . Which books , what to see - ask on
ClayArt. See who is the closest Potter near you , ask on ClayArt .
Never give up .
I do it all for myself , raw clay to refined clay , glazes and enamels
from oxides , built kilns , electric , gas and wood , ball mill , draw
my own designs and this is just a serious Hobby for me . I make no
cash from pottery , I give the pieces away as gifts.
Take heart , I know you can succeed .
Khaimraj - The Odd One in the West Indies / Caribbean .
-----Original Message-----
From: Karin Hurt
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: 26 March 2001 2:32
Subject: Re: play at art
>what about teachers who don't take teaching seriously because it happens to
>be a Community college and who call us "not real students". What about the
>student who wants to learn, but lives in the middle of nowhere and has to
>make do with what there is, a tired teacher who plays at teaching?
>
Stephani Stephenson on mon 26 mar 01
In keeping with a time honored CLAYART feedback ritual, I agree with
BOTH Nils and Mel !
First , Mel, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. You are not alone
on this.
We must work to raise the credibility of our profession.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
The difference in perspective comes when the individual artist meets the
outside world.
Have you ever noticed how many art related jobs in the community are
considered volunteer jobs?
Example: a nearby school district is considered THE best school district
in the area. The gem of the county.
Yet my friend's fourth graders had no art at their grade level. Last
year the district instituted a new art program.
It was a series of art VIDEOS. Because the teachers protested that they
were not trained in art, they then asked for parent volunteers to come
in and show the video and answer art questions the students might have.
The person who did it thought she was an artist because she painted a
stencil in her bathroom.
Great program, don't you think?
In another school district they hired a professional artist.
On her PART TIME LOW PAYING JOB she covered FIVE schools every week.
She was a wreck. She was not having fun. They couldn't imagine hiring
someone at each school ,or full time.
On the other side of the coin:
I too have enjoyment and satisfaction when I engage in my work.
I agree with the intent of Nil's statement, but rather than play , I
will call it FLOW.
(for a definition of that term , read " FLOW: The Psychology of Optimal
Experience" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi)
FLOW is a better term , in my mind, for what the artist experiences.
In teaching play may or may not be employed
A serious potter with serious apprentices will likely forego it and
focus on skill and discipline.
But , another venue, another situation, with more general or
introductory students may call for
different approaches. What may have the appearance of play is a way to
draw the student out.
Getting someone to THINK for themselves, to CREATE SOMETHING, to get
past the
automatic response, the "what is the right answer" approach is
difficult. Good teachers use all their
resources. Are you funny? Be funny! Are you a wheel wizard? dazzle em!
Are you supportive? be supportive! Are you demanding? Be demanding!
What Nil's describes as play in his teaching is not something without
guidance.
It is followed up and reinforced with the development of a discerning
eye, of craft and discipline.
The beginnings of skill may take on the appearance of play
It is a key for some but certainly not all students in all situations.
People who take a workshop or an intro class are often in the throes of
joy at the rediscovery of creativity.
it looks like play but it is more than play. Or maybe sometimes it is
just play.
The worst case, which does exist, is the "Go play with clay, i will be
back at the end of the term" philosophy.
I would not deny anyone a moment of play. Occasions of humor and fun
enter into most studios.
I love it when that happens. Anyone who knows Mel knows he has joy in
what he does as well.
But that is not how we define our profession.
So for the sake of my livelihood, and because of the way our society
assigns status and priorities,
I will never ever tell anyone I play at art or that art is just play.
Art is also war you know. just ask an artist a few weeks before
deadline.
sincerely
Stephani Stephenson
mudmistress@earthlink.net
Isao & Don on mon 26 mar 01
At 06:47 3/26/01 -0600, you wrote:
>"Play"....According to Webster...
>Musicians PLAY instruments.
>To amuse oneself......
>to touch lightly, finger.......
>to contend, or take part, hence to gamble......
>to act or perform......
>to move or function freely, esp. within prescribed limits......
>to do or execute, esp. for amusement, profit, or education.......
>TO BRING ABOUT; WORK; EFFECT.
>Mel,
>I must have missed the post that mentioned play and got you started on this
>again.
>I think you are a bit testy over the word "play". When potters are talking,
>and
>saying how much they "enjoy" throwing.....sometimes it helps to talk about
>work as if it were fun....like play.....forgetting for a minute the hours of
>glazing and cleaning and more WORK type requirements in the course of a day.
>I do know the difference between work and play.......My least favorite
>things, the things I HAVE to do. ....like shelf grinding, or pricing
>pots....that is WORK. However, I think of gathering wood, stacking the
>kiln, stoking the kiln for days as very enjoyable....I'm amusing myself,
>taking part, gambling, performing, moving and functioning freely within
>prescribed limits.....for EDUCATION, EFFECT, AND PROFIT ! Sounds like
>play to me.
>See you very Soon !
>Merrie,Yes,the entire process is work,fun and play. Unfortunatly in an
insanely cometitive society, we are mistaught, to equate work with
employment nad play as some sort of formal recreation, requiring uniforms
and tools with no purpose other than to "play" with. Myself and others in
the same game, believed that Physics or Mathematics, were superior forms of
play, that work is a pleasure and employment merely a way of putting food
on the table. For me,work and process,enjoyed or not, are the highest form
of Art.
Don & Isao.
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
Lee Love on tue 27 mar 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karin Hurt"
: but lives in the middle of nowhere and has to
: make do with what there is, a tired teacher who plays at teaching?
Release that anchor from your "Butt Bongos" and fly, butterfly, FLY!
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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