Philip Poburka on sun 22 apr 01
Dear Larry,
Thanks for your elaborations!
I have a few more below...
O! A lively side-topic!
> Philip wrote
Ahem... I did not 'write' this as MY anecdote!...(I was 'quoteing' someone
who had
sincerely relayed the 'advice'!)
Relayed as:
> >> I spoke with Ms. Dolan at NCECA who told me never to use a bench
grinder
> >> to sharpen the tools. Best to use a whet stone, she said.
Okay...I did 'write':
--- Mrs. Dolan's kind advice does not seem to include the qualifications or
--- elaborations as may represent the context or considerations in which it
was formed.
you say:
> No qualifications or context are needed. It is always a bad idea to
> sharpen a fine cutting tool with a grinder. A grinder is for shaping,
> which is to say it is a tool for taking away a lot of material.
How ever could it 'allways' be a 'bad' idea?
How ever do you suppose Cutting Tools get 'made'?
Well SOME are never 'ground'...they are made of 'rolled'
cross-sections...never having had but an approximate 'edge' in the first
place.
How is one to be rid of nicks, or a rounded bevel?
Also...what - for 'present purposes' is your definition of a 'Fine Cutting
Tool'?
Verses an honest enough, or at any rate, some accepted of, rough-and-ready
Tool that is used to 'do' whatever
it 'does'?
When I made Tempered Steel Tools, I 'ground' them...I would never have
thought them to be 'fine'...they were 'good'...they were 'fine' compared to
anything I knew of that was commercially available, 'fine' compared to
coarser 'Tools'...and...they
were 'crude' compared to 'finer' Tools.
What is the criteria?
These are not old style 'Scalpels' !
These are not 'Straight Razors'!
Not Manganese-charcoal-"Cast Steel" laid Smoothing Plane Irons!
Not a 'pan Pacific-North-Western' 'Champeene' Lumberjack's 'prize' Carbon
Steel laid
Double Bitted Axe from 1888...made by some last breath Sheffield 'Master' as
the 'last-word' in the vernacular...where the 'boys' gathered 'round and
nodded admiratiion
when it were 'done'...
These ARE however, for Cutting , 'Trimming' of Clay.
This is an Honest , and to Potters, to 'Us', an important and frequent task
to
be addressed.
These are "OUR" Tools.
Our TOOLS are Important, I know, as we agree!
SOME Tools are maybe about as nice as can be arrived at, for practical
purposes.
Some are maybe a mite more cursorial or of casual consideration than others.
All of them address in their own way, the conception of it's author, of the
requirements of the 'task' of Clay Cutting, or Trimming.
...or, sometimes, the
requirements of makeing a 'product' that may be marketed, that will make
some money, and if it 'works', then that is fine too.
This is it's OWN kind of 'Cutting'.
Clay would kill the edge of a fine Charcoal process 'Cast-Steel' Scalpel in
minutes...or after so many 'few' surface feet or whatever...
How 'delicate' or painstakeing do you think the 'edge' should be, to 'cut'
Clay?
It must be 'sturdy'...yes?
'Sharp' , yes?
'Even', yes? (ie: no 'nicks')
I think it should be the 'edge' that WILL 'cut' Clay, and that WILL hold up
the longest IN doing so.
This 'edge' IS certainly available from a 'grinding wheel'...or an abrasive
Belt.
I have grinding wheels and abrasive belts that will, for sake of argument,
put a mirror finish on
Hard Steel.
Have you supposed that ALL 'Wheels' or Belts are 'Coarse' wasteful, and
nasty?
OR that Potter's are implicitly condemned to endure nasty and coarse
grinding
wheels?
Or may they not, at their convenience, and by their appreciation, obtain a
'wheel' which may give
happier results?
AND learn to use it?
Do we have different pictures in our heads?
I think we do!
We must!
Clay is very abrasive, as you know!
"CLAY" IS a simi-liquid-semi-viscous "GRINDING-WHEEL"!...yes?
If you 'like' to sharpen your Tools with whet-stones, I think this is
splendid!...I like it!...admire you for it!
I admire your choice!
I have used 'whet-stones'...I understand them fairly well...AND I would
choose other methods IF those 'methods' will give an honest and effective
'result' in less time, or with greater comfort or facility.
AND...I like the idea that Potter's may be aprised OF their 'Choices'...do
you see?
Or that they may do more knowingly, what they are allready 'doing'
anyway...and with happier results.
Well...it does depend on in whose hands and what sort of grinder and wheel
and
all...there are significant differences.
Most of us 'drive' Automobiles...'Throw=Pots'...'do' things...we can 'learn'
to 'do' plenty!
I use a very old eight inch Wheel, hand-crank 'Grinder', Bench Mount, for
the Sharpening - the Grinding
lightly - of my Plane Irons and Chisels for Wood Working, and these are
serious and precious old Tools...a light jointing and Grinding, then a few
whisks on an old 'Barber's Whet-Stone' with some spit, coffee, or on
'Sharpening-Days', Soap and Water...a few whisks on the 'stone', and z z z z
z z z...they
shave the hair on my arm very nicely...or on my 'chin' were I so interested.
In twenty years, I have used up small fractions of an inch on my Favourite
19th Century Chisels and Plane Irons...and I have used the hell out of them.
This is allright...they get nicked sometimes...and I 'grind' them...they get
'dull' and I grind 'em...whisp 'em on the 'stone' a few passes, and all is
well in the Garden.
My little 'grinder' , or my Power Bench Grinder, would be the ENVY of the
old time fellows who used
'whet-stones' because there was limited acess TO big crank, or foot pedal
grinders...or
'power' grinders...they
had fewer 'choices'...
The technique OF 'grinding' is more the question: To remove no more metal
than needed to get the edge, and to presrve the Temper by being sensitive TO
the 'heat', and Cooling the edge, as with a dribbleing 'sponge'...and
keeping a 'flat' bevel!
My Wood - Lathe Tools I just grind 'em a mite...that works fine...too
brutal a life
for them to have a 'shaveing-edge' that would get beaten and crushed anyway
in seconds...grind 'em an' GO!
Some of them are 'Charles Buck' ...before the 'Buck Brothers' got to be the
'Brothers', and came to America ( I am told).
They are nice.
I would never 'hurt' them.
They would probably qualify as 'Fine Tools'...I think of them as 'Honest'
Tools.
I have turned a lot of things...my Lathe Chisels are not much 'shorter' than
they were when I got them in the mid 'seventies...the same three or four
Chisels that I do 99 percent of my Turning with.
Someday I will maybe have worn 'em out.
In maybe a hundred and fifty years...
So?
To have sharpened them with whet-stones, would by now, have become a
culmination equalling perhaps Months of my life.
Does a pragmatic not depend on the 'specifics'?
Or on heresay and 'global' admonitions?
Or upon the 'experience' of whom?
And how do we evaluate that 'experience'?
And how do we evaluate the 'evaluation'?
Best to 'do'...and to 'pay attention...'see' for one's self.
I 'learn' BYE sometimes making mistakes...the 'learning' is only as probable
or as 'good' as the quality of attention I bring to it.
Nothing can substitute for that...especially unqualified (as in
'elaborated') 'heresay'.
This is not the same as someone never learning NOT to be 'leaning' into a
powerful electric stationary
Bench Grinder, with a freehand held (verses jig-held) Tool...getting it hot,
or erodeing it away senselessly.
Maybe getting their hair tangled up in it for good measure...
One can learn to sharpen things pretty nicely.
One can take into advisement the 'particulars' of another's imparted
experience.
I believe you may well be a talented 'sharpener' of your Tools.
...'care' is also attention...and some knowledge of what's what.
I do not see how we could have anything to disagree on!
But if one IS fairly careful, certainly 'Potters Tools' made of Tempered
Steel, may, on a medium fine wheel or belt, and cooled with a dribbleing
or
seeping against it)
sponge...be 'sharpened' well , and good results may be had.
This respecting 'out-side' bevels of course.
My intent is to shed a little light on this...where someone wishing to
Sharpen their Steel Tools, may think on how they do it, and maybe get better
at it with some practice and appreciation.
I know that many Potter's have injured or prematurely used up their Tools
for lack of familiarity with sharpening, and I expect that with a little
information, they will be less likely to do harm...and more likely to
find sharpening as a skill they may build upon, and accomplish practically
and forthrightly...should they care TO do so.
If the dilemma of the novice 'sharpener' is, with Tempered Steel Tools, to
be 'left' with an admonition to ONLY 'sharpen' them with 'whet-stones'...or
perhaps not at all...?
However wise or sincere the advocation of 'whet-stones' may be...the
recomendation itself told us nothing as to 'why', or as to why the absence
of alternatives...
I freehand nice 'sharpenings' on small or wire-gauge machinist's Drills, on
an electric Benech Grinder, or hand-crank Wheel.
These drill very nicely in Steel...Lead, Aluminum, Brass, sheet metals...you
can hold a piece of sheet metal easily with the fingers...everyone SAYS not
to 'do' this...and the 'advice' is predicated on their presumption of, or
familiarity with, the
geometry and characteristics of the Drills they recall being used...and the
very probable
tendency OF the 'drill' to catch the sheet metal as it near the
penetration..and to revolve IT to the immediate detriment OF one's
fingers...
I do not 'use' the geometry they had in mind for their admonition.
This did not appear in any 'Books' I had read...Old or New.
I figured it out,
And...It 'works'...very well thank you...
Anyone with 'experience' would exclaim, "DON'T drill small pieces of
sheetmetal whilst holding it in the fingers on a Drill Press!"
AND...given their experience, they would be very right.
My 'drills' WILL allow you to 'do' this...and they do it nice and 'cool'
too.
There is a difference.
And the 'difference' the difference 'makes'.
...different point geometries for different metals or situations.
They drill 'true'.
...no 'harm'...'YOU' gotta know
what's up...Books don't build things...neither does advice...'you' do.
I would never willingly sharpen drills, or many other things with a
'whet-stone'...I will put the FINISH edge on a Chisel, Plane Iron or perhaps
a few other things...I will not live forever!...and there are limits to the
patience of my creditors, and
customers...and my energy...I 'grind' , and I do so, nicely.
One arrives at the 'edge' one intends...by any of several ways...I shaved
with an Old (laid) 'hatchet' once...that I'd sharpened. That's not too bad.
It takes what it takes...TO get a 'sharp' edge...and 'sharp' for some
things,
is not 'sharp' for others.
'Sharp' for some things is 'too' sharp for others.
That 'shaveing' Hatchet would maybe work sweet for some things, on Live or
Green Wood IN the 'right' hands...
It
would be
quickly chipped and dulled on Dry or Seasoned Wood...or depending on HOW it
were 'used'...or 'not'...
A 'hatchet' does not necessarily benifit from a 'shaving' edge...I wanted to
see if I
could 'do' it...and I 'could'...
One would not want a 'shaveing' edge for Potter's Tools...it would would
crumble anyway.
I had said:
--- Well...in the absence of any elaborations or qualifications in Mrs.
Dolan's
--- kind advise, the contrast between our views may be only appearant, and
not actual.
---As an aside, do you suppose that 'Dolan' uses 'whet-stones' in the
production or sharpening of their Tools?
--- I would not suppose they do.
you say:
> If they are sold sharp, then probably they do.
Would you like to make a little 'friendly' wager on this?
Say, oh... a Bottle of 'Dewars' or something?
That they 'use' whet stones to 'sharpen' the many thousands of Tools they
make?
No 'grinding' had occurred...or that they did not 'grind' the 'finished'
edge?
you said:
>As I say, grinders are
> shaping tools. Further, it does not matter a bit whether they use a
> whetstone or grinder or a hand file to shape their tools. They do not
> recommend using a grinder to sharpen them, and rightly so. If you do,
> well, let's just say it's now your tool, and you can ruin it any way you
> want.
You are being a little hard on me!
I do not 'ruin' Tools...I love Tools!
I understand that 'they' , or so far, Mrs. Dolan at any rate DID not, on
that occasion, 'recommend'...This is fine!
I intimate no disrespect.
My point is that we do not explicitly know 'why'.
THERE are 'different' TOOLS!!!!
And sometimes differences within similar Tools.
Some of the 'Tempered Steel' Tools have 'hard spots' which a 'file' will
slide over like slideing on glass...but a whet-stone may 'bite'...some are
very 'soft' and MAY BE
'sharpened' with a 'file'...with this a 'file' would be faster than a whet
stone...some 'stainless steel' Tools never had any
'edge'
in the first place! They are like a 'Paper - Clip'.
Well...maybe I was not very clear.
I think I have offended you somehow!
Maybe a fine line:
I am not recommending that anyone 'sharpen' or 'grind' their Tools with
destructive consequences...,just the opposite!
I am saying that I do not understand the justification or reason for the
admonition of 'not-to'...'grind'.
Unless it implicitly supposes 'Potters' to be uneducatable.
I am saying that IN the absence of some articulation OF the
'implicitly-present' Rationale, we are free to wonder some, on the 'context'
OF the 'advice' AND of the 'Subject'...my 'point' may have been obscure!
I am not suggesting that someone do something foolish or destructive.
I am suggesting that understanding some things about a subject is more to go
on, than advice or admonitions which do not , or may not have had time TO,
elaborate or illumine some
context for the assertion.
ie: "Don't do this"...
Okay, okay...respectfully, "WHY"?
See?
One possible speculation respecting the advice 'not-to' use a
'grinder'...could pause
to wonder that it
would maybe succeed to diplomaticly avoid tiresome explainations and
complications to
those unfamiliar
with 'how' to do so, 'about' How TO 'do-so'?
So... it is 'okay' if some Potter spends (cumulative)hours whisping with
little
whet-stones on some six or ten or twenty or whatever 'dollar' Tool.
Or, a few seconds intelligently 'grinding'?
What did you like or not 'like' about my recommendation of 'Silicon-Carbide'
papers, glued to slender sections?
I WAS covering 'both' sides of this question...!
Did you not find that worth noticeing?
For a manufacturer to explicitly state that they were TO 'advise' People to
'USE' a 'grinder', or if to print or cause to have printed some necessarily
lengthly and convolute
brochure, explaining to people HOW to do so, WITH 'Safety-Glasses', and WITH
a Face
Shield, WITH their "HAIR" in some 'safe' mode...and WITH god knows what
else...a 'resperator' probably...with
disclaimers that 'may' limit their liabilities in some cases of
mis-hap...and the probable 'opinion' of an adviseing Attourney, Civil
Litigation
'councellor', or underwriters who would cringe, wince and wag fingers, and
make stink-faces, even at the thought of "THAT"...
May... be...a healthy 'speculation', and a realistic one...and may be
completely 'off' as well?
If I were their Legal Council, I would say : "Uhhhh...just tell 'em to use
'whet-stones'...("...uhhh...that'll be eighty bucks.")
Do you know any 'Lawers'?
See what they 'say'!
'Legally' no one 'in-business' OR out, could never with impunity say 'do'
THIS...'DO' THAT...where
someone imaginably 'could' screw up.
Niether can anyone else in a position OF being some 'manufacturer' .
Information MAY be shared...Civil suits DO result from permutations of
'advice' ...
'Grinding' and 'Sharpening', like many things, are only about as 'good' as
who is doing it.
The more they may understand about it, the more they have to work with.
There is no harm in examineing the 'Subject' and considering that one might
investigate the logic of advice.
Examine it...and draw your own conclusions...as perhaps you have!
This was not 'about' my 'advice' or that of others: It is about the
understandings which underlie the logic upon which 'advice' may be
based...or evaluated, or what sense it may be found to make...or what we may
learn in the process.
I'd said:
---The time invested in sharpening outside bevel Trimming-Tools with
---'whet-stones', I imagine would rapidly exceed the assigned value or
'cost'
--- of replaceing them, and hence, does not make very much sense to me as
---a recommendation, as particularly since I do not know what
rationalization or
--- 'reason' would underlie a recommendation to do so.
you say:
> What amount of time? A quick pass with a stone every once in a while
> probably takes less time than firing up the grinder and running to the
> pottery supplier for replacement tools that die before their time due to
> abuse. You _DO_ allow the grinder to stabilize for several minutes after
> startup, right?
Maybe this depends as well on how much Trimming one is doing?
Well...certainly, I am given to understand, that the 'amount' of time, is
actually
more than many Potters are pleased to spend anyway.
We may have different mental images or vignettes representing occasions of
sharpening.
As in most 'disputes' among sensible People...I suspect that we are not
'talking-about' the same thing...
A 'quick pass' sounds good to me...
Keeping the same 'bevel'...over the 'life' of a Steel Tool...how cumulative
many hours
do you suppose you spend in 'quick passes'?
IF you loose a little more metal on a six or ten or twenty Dollar Tool, over
several minutely 'excessive' ('grinder') sharpenings...and saved an
hour or two...well, that is not an
unreasonable 'choice' either!
There is still, eventually, the same amount of material which needs to be
removed for the 'edge' TO be 'sharp', given that you keep the same
bevel...No?...Yes? How ever you 'remove' it.
It may however, not be enough ( a few quick passes) to renew an edge which
is nicked, or which has worn more than a little, because one did not do the
'quick-passes' often enough over the last few or several 'Trimming
Sessions'...or one may not want to...
I 'do' what I 'do'...in my happy aquaintence with my 'Grinders'.
...do I allow it or 'them' to 'stabalize' for several MINUTES?
After 'start-up'?...
No I do not...several 'seconds' would be more like it.
Mine come 'up-to-speed' pretty quick...I stand to the side.
I have had three 'Wheels' explode over the years...just as
nice-as-you-please!
My 'advice' TO 'stand to the side'...is sincere!
My point was also that many Steel Tools may be imagined to 'die' before
their time, because of being sharpened on power Grinders or Belts, and too
heavily so, or that they get hot and the Temper gets spoiled....then they
get duller quicker...sharpened more etc...and are all used (mis-used) up.
My purpose or motive is toward Potters getting the most out of whatever
Tools they may have or work with.
This with respect to their time, inclination and their 'informed' decisions.
I recommended keeping the Tempered Steel Tool cooled with water from a small
sponge.
Ummm...how did I go wrong here?
Potters ARE 'sharpenning' their Steel Tools on these machines...my point is
that
they may do so with more informed practice, and 'do' with that information,
whatever they like.
At least to HAVE the information!
To 'take it, or leave it'...
ie 'keep it cool'...IF you 'grind'!
I'd said:
---The essential caution or prudence with 'Bench Grinders', as you may
recall,
--- is, when starting-up the machine, to make sure the line of travel for
the
---eventuality of a disintegrating wheel, is clear of people or other
cherished forms.
Then you say:
> And to allow it to run for a while before putting anything against it.
Ummm...didn't I just say that?
If she gonna 'go' , she gonna go right at the 'get-go', believe you me!
Let 'er run, or no let 'er run 'a while'...she'll go...pretty quick of
comeing up-to-speed.
Caution is fine...a few minutes are fine...a few 'seconds' are fine...what
ever
got you going here?
you lastly said:
> Procrastinate now!
No...I'll wait 'till later...!
Thanks for the topic getting looked at some!
I do appreciate your 'lively' interest!
And I appreciate your attention and efforts to stirr this up some.
Good !
Bye for now...
Phil
ell vee nev
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