Edouard Bastarache on mon 7 may 01
Right on Vince!!!
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irr=3DE9ductible Qu=3DE9becois
Sorel-Tracy
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----- Message d'origine -----
De : vince pitelka
=3DC0 :
Envoy=3DE9 : 7 mai, 2001 13:17
Objet : Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
> Regarding this thread concerning salt/soda kiln gases, I am bothered by
the
> tone of some posts. I have always taught safety issues, and am safety
> conscious around the Craft Center studios. But I will not support or
spread
> alarmist warnings which are unencumbered by scientific evidence. There=
=3D
is
> no evidence of health problems from salt/soda kiln fumes in studio or
> industry, so the process is innocent until proven guilty.
>
> In addition to all the precautions you would normally use with any gas =
=3D
or
> wood kilns, with a salt/soda kiln add these: Don't breath the fumes as
they
> emerge directly from the kiln (for the life of me, I cannot imagine any=
=3D
one
> doing this). Keep a close watch on all metal structural components in =
=3D
the
> area, and replace them as soon as they show serious corrosion.
>
> While firing salt kilns in coastal Northern California in the 1970s the
cool
> weather often caused the kiln fumes to settle back down to the ground, =
=3D
and
> in damp weather the kiln was capable of seeding a fogbank, which was an
> interesting phenomenon. In either case, the fumes were so dilute that =
=3D
it
> was almost impossible to detect any odor out of the ordinary. Needless=
=3D
to
> say, salt firers through several centuries have fired in every conceiva=
=3D
ble
> weather, and this was certainly a frequent occurence, and still there i=
=3D
s
no
> record of ill effects in studio or industry.
>
> The discussion originally referred to hydrochloric acid fumes.
Concentrated
> hydrochloric acid fumes are extremely dangerous. But the fumes lingeri=
=3D
ng
in
> the air around a salt/kiln are at the most a mild irritant and are
otherwise
> benign, and until someone shows me scientific evidence to the contrary =
=3D
I
> will continue to believe and teach that.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
=3D
___
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
vince pitelka on mon 7 may 01
Regarding this thread concerning salt/soda kiln gases, I am bothered by the
tone of some posts. I have always taught safety issues, and am safety
conscious around the Craft Center studios. But I will not support or spread
alarmist warnings which are unencumbered by scientific evidence. There is
no evidence of health problems from salt/soda kiln fumes in studio or
industry, so the process is innocent until proven guilty.
In addition to all the precautions you would normally use with any gas or
wood kilns, with a salt/soda kiln add these: Don't breath the fumes as they
emerge directly from the kiln (for the life of me, I cannot imagine anyone
doing this). Keep a close watch on all metal structural components in the
area, and replace them as soon as they show serious corrosion.
While firing salt kilns in coastal Northern California in the 1970s the cool
weather often caused the kiln fumes to settle back down to the ground, and
in damp weather the kiln was capable of seeding a fogbank, which was an
interesting phenomenon. In either case, the fumes were so dilute that it
was almost impossible to detect any odor out of the ordinary. Needless to
say, salt firers through several centuries have fired in every conceivable
weather, and this was certainly a frequent occurence, and still there is no
record of ill effects in studio or industry.
The discussion originally referred to hydrochloric acid fumes. Concentrated
hydrochloric acid fumes are extremely dangerous. But the fumes lingering in
the air around a salt/kiln are at the most a mild irritant and are otherwise
benign, and until someone shows me scientific evidence to the contrary I
will continue to believe and teach that.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on tue 8 may 01
> I think with something so important as peoples' lives and careers it lies
> with the instructor to be very sure before having students participate.
So
> I have to ask are you VERY sure? Can you site me research because I'd
like
> to resolve this in my heart. I miss going to the clay center but now have
> lost trust. I love pottery but I love life even more.
> Used to love the look of salt fired pots, not anymore, now they kind of
make
> me feel cold,...remind me of our mortality.
Kate -
I do not know what to say about this. I have never encountered anything
like this, and I can only go by my own experience. We salt-fire twenty to
thirty times a year at the Craft Center, plus numerous soda firings. And as
I mentioned in a previous post, I participated in many salt firings in
Northern California back in the 1970s. To my knowledge, I have never known
anyone who suffered the kind of symptoms you describe. I can only assume
that there were extenuating circumstances and other contributing factors.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
PotterSmiths' on tue 8 may 01
hmmm Vince, Edouard,
I recently took a soda fired class. Very respectable instructor. Put
pickling salt in kiln. Agitated the air in the kiln by opening and
partially closing damper LOTS... That night cough, by end of week pneumon=
ia.
Understand how people die form pneumonia now, definitely can scar the lun=
gs
3 months later and I'm still coughing a little. Haven't gone back.
Where does the burden of proof of safety lie?
I think with something so important as peoples' lives and careers it lies
with the instructor to be very sure before having students participate. =
So
I have to ask are you VERY sure? Can you site me research because I'd li=
ke
to resolve this in my heart. I miss going to the clay center but now hav=
e
lost trust. I love pottery but I love life even more.
Used to love the look of salt fired pots, not anymore, now they kind of m=
ake
me feel cold,...remind me of our mortality.
Kate
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Edouard Bastarache
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:24 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
Right on Vince!!!
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irr=E9ductible Qu=E9becois
Sorel-Tracy
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----- Message d'origine -----
De : vince pitelka
=C0 :
Envoy=E9 : 7 mai, 2001 13:17
Objet : Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
> Regarding this thread concerning salt/soda kiln gases, I am bothered by
the
> tone of some posts. I have always taught safety issues, and am safety
> conscious around the Craft Center studios. But I will not support or
spread
> alarmist warnings which are unencumbered by scientific evidence. There=
is
> no evidence of health problems from salt/soda kiln fumes in studio or
> industry, so the process is innocent until proven guilty.
>
> In addition to all the precautions you would normally use with any gas =
or
> wood kilns, with a salt/soda kiln add these: Don't breath the fumes as
they
> emerge directly from the kiln (for the life of me, I cannot imagine any=
one
> doing this). Keep a close watch on all metal structural components in =
the
> area, and replace them as soon as they show serious corrosion.
>
> While firing salt kilns in coastal Northern California in the 1970s the
cool
> weather often caused the kiln fumes to settle back down to the ground, =
and
> in damp weather the kiln was capable of seeding a fogbank, which was an
> interesting phenomenon. In either case, the fumes were so dilute that =
it
> was almost impossible to detect any odor out of the ordinary. Needless=
to
> say, salt firers through several centuries have fired in every conceiva=
ble
> weather, and this was certainly a frequent occurence, and still there i=
s
no
> record of ill effects in studio or industry.
>
> The discussion originally referred to hydrochloric acid fumes.
Concentrated
> hydrochloric acid fumes are extremely dangerous. But the fumes lingeri=
ng
in
> the air around a salt/kiln are at the most a mild irritant and are
otherwise
> benign, and until someone shows me scientific evidence to the contrary =
I
> will continue to believe and teach that.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
John Hesselberth on tue 8 may 01
Vince,
Your statement below is reasoned and complete. I accept that and apologi=
ze
for any misunderstanding. I was simply responding to your statement in o=
ne
of the earlier posts that:
> Salt firings produce hydrochloric acid fumes, which make
> metals corrode like crazy, but are benign to humans.
Without some of the additional words that you have added below, I felt th=
at
might mislead people. Let's move on.
Regards, John
Web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com Email: john@frogpondpottery.co=
m
"The life so short, the craft so long to learn." Chaucer's translation of
Hippocrates, 5th cent. B.C.
> From: vince pitelka
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:17:18 -0500
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
>
> Regarding this thread concerning salt/soda kiln gases, I am bothered by=
the
> tone of some posts. I have always taught safety issues, and am safety
> conscious around the Craft Center studios. But I will not support or s=
pread
> alarmist warnings which are unencumbered by scientific evidence. There=
is
> no evidence of health problems from salt/soda kiln fumes in studio or
> industry, so the process is innocent until proven guilty.
>
> In addition to all the precautions you would normally use with any gas =
or
> wood kilns, with a salt/soda kiln add these: Don't breath the fumes as=
they
> emerge directly from the kiln (for the life of me, I cannot imagine any=
one
> doing this). Keep a close watch on all metal structural components in =
the
> area, and replace them as soon as they show serious corrosion.
>
> While firing salt kilns in coastal Northern California in the 1970s the=
cool
> weather often caused the kiln fumes to settle back down to the ground, =
and
> in damp weather the kiln was capable of seeding a fogbank, which was an
> interesting phenomenon. In either case, the fumes were so dilute that =
it
> was almost impossible to detect any odor out of the ordinary. Needless=
to
> say, salt firers through several centuries have fired in every conceiva=
ble
> weather, and this was certainly a frequent occurence, and still there i=
s no
> record of ill effects in studio or industry.
>
> The discussion originally referred to hydrochloric acid fumes. Concent=
rated
> hydrochloric acid fumes are extremely dangerous. But the fumes lingeri=
ng in
> the air around a salt/kiln are at the most a mild irritant and are othe=
rwise
> benign, and until someone shows me scientific evidence to the contrary =
I
> will continue to believe and teach that.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
Edouard Bastarache on tue 8 may 01
Hello Kate,
I said it depends on the level of your exposure.
I also said I searched "NIOSHTIC & OSHLINE",
the most complete and famous database pertaining
to Occupational Health and Safety, now published
by the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health
and Safety, and there was nothing published concerning this
problem.
This database has scientific abstracts about articles published
decades ago, and up to today, in all languages, and nothing has
been published so far on this subject, taking into account
that salt-glazing was used on an industrial basis
in Germany for a very long period of time.
If you "overexpose" yourself somehow, then you may encounter
health problems as described by John Hesselberth, and more,
like "Reactive Airways Dysfunction Syndrome, an "asthma-like
disease.
Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials
is a must in our field of activity.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irr=3DE9ductible Qu=3DE9becois
Sorel-Tracy
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----- Message d'origine -----
De : PotterSmiths'
=3DC0 :
Envoy=3DE9 : 8 mai, 2001 09:22
Objet : Re: Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
> hmmm Vince, Edouard,
>
> I recently took a soda fired class. Very respectable instructor. Put
> pickling salt in kiln. Agitated the air in the kiln by opening and
> partially closing damper LOTS... That night cough, by end of week
pneumonia.
> Understand how people die form pneumonia now, definitely can scar the
lungs
> 3 months later and I'm still coughing a little. Haven't gone back.
>
> Where does the burden of proof of safety lie?
>
> I think with something so important as peoples' lives and careers it li=
=3D
es
> with the instructor to be very sure before having students participate.
So
> I have to ask are you VERY sure? Can you site me research because I'd
like
> to resolve this in my heart. I miss going to the clay center but now h=
=3D
ave
> lost trust. I love pottery but I love life even more.
>
> Used to love the look of salt fired pots, not anymore, now they kind of
make
> me feel cold,...remind me of our mortality.
>
> Kate
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
> Behalf Of Edouard Bastarache
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:24 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
>
>
> Right on Vince!!!
>
> Later,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Irr=3DE9ductible Qu=3DE9becois
> Sorel-Tracy
> Dans / In "La Belle Province"
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
> ----- Message d'origine -----
> De : vince pitelka
> =3DC0 :
> Envoy=3DE9 : 7 mai, 2001 13:17
> Objet : Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
>
>
> > Regarding this thread concerning salt/soda kiln gases, I am bothered =
=3D
by
> the
> > tone of some posts. I have always taught safety issues, and am safet=
=3D
y
> > conscious around the Craft Center studios. But I will not support or
> spread
> > alarmist warnings which are unencumbered by scientific evidence. The=
=3D
re
is
> > no evidence of health problems from salt/soda kiln fumes in studio or
> > industry, so the process is innocent until proven guilty.
> >
> > In addition to all the precautions you would normally use with any ga=
=3D
s
or
> > wood kilns, with a salt/soda kiln add these: Don't breath the fumes =
=3D
as
> they
> > emerge directly from the kiln (for the life of me, I cannot imagine
anyone
> > doing this). Keep a close watch on all metal structural components i=
=3D
n
the
> > area, and replace them as soon as they show serious corrosion.
> >
> > While firing salt kilns in coastal Northern California in the 1970s t=
=3D
he
> cool
> > weather often caused the kiln fumes to settle back down to the ground=
=3D
,
and
> > in damp weather the kiln was capable of seeding a fogbank, which was =
=3D
an
> > interesting phenomenon. In either case, the fumes were so dilute tha=
=3D
t
it
> > was almost impossible to detect any odor out of the ordinary. Needle=
=3D
ss
to
> > say, salt firers through several centuries have fired in every
conceivable
> > weather, and this was certainly a frequent occurence, and still there=
=3D
is
> no
> > record of ill effects in studio or industry.
> >
> > The discussion originally referred to hydrochloric acid fumes.
> Concentrated
> > hydrochloric acid fumes are extremely dangerous. But the fumes
lingering
> in
> > the air around a salt/kiln are at the most a mild irritant and are
> otherwise
> > benign, and until someone shows me scientific evidence to the contrar=
=3D
y I
> > will continue to believe and teach that.
> > Best wishes -
> > - Vince
> >
> > Vince Pitelka
> > Appalachian Center for Crafts
> > Tennessee Technological University
> > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> > 615/597-5376
> > Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> > 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> > http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
=3D
___
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
=3D
___
> __
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
=3D
___
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
PotterSmiths' on wed 9 may 01
>I can only assume that there were extenuating circumstances and other
contributing factors.
Thanks Vince,
I agree with you there. Every firing is different. We agitated the air in
the kiln by opening and partially closing the damper...I'd say **20 - 30
times total, each time after adding soda in saw dust. Pickling salt was
placed throughout the kiln. Some fumes had to be in the air with that kind
of agitation - flames in and out of any opening in the kiln (the fire was
very exciting and.. seductive by the way). Maybe it was this combination,
or maybe I was just getting the bug anyway.
Vince, I appreciate your experiences and willingness to share what you know.
You have really good information and I have a lot of respect for your
knowledge, so... I your giving me perspective.
The least is I come away with a new found respect for the possible risks and
a reminder that I am the one who is responsible for my decisions.
Pneumonia happens. I will never know for sure if there is a relationship
between it and the salt firing we did. The timing however, leaves me with a
renewed respect for safety and making responsible decisions.
I need to let it go, and work on getting back.
With a lot of respect a good wishes.
Kate Smith
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of vince pitelka
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:35 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Salt/Soda Kilns - Safety Consciousness
> I think with something so important as peoples' lives and careers it lies
> with the instructor to be very sure before having students participate.
So
> I have to ask are you VERY sure? Can you site me research because I'd
like
> to resolve this in my heart. I miss going to the clay center but now have
> lost trust. I love pottery but I love life even more.
> Used to love the look of salt fired pots, not anymore, now they kind of
make
> me feel cold,...remind me of our mortality.
Kate -
I do not know what to say about this. I have never encountered anything
like this, and I can only go by my own experience. We salt-fire twenty to
thirty times a year at the Craft Center, plus numerous soda firings. And as
I mentioned in a previous post, I participated in many salt firings in
Northern California back in the 1970s. To my knowledge, I have never known
anyone who suffered the kind of symptoms you describe.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
| |
|
