L. P. Skeen on wed 30 may 01
>>>I assumed I would sign the studio name instead of mine if I had a
"collaborater", but that still seems kind of odd when I think about it.
Well, my understanding is that Hamada did it. I think I have heard mel say
that the man he worked for in Japan (blanking on the guy's name...) signed
mel's work. Not saying it's right, but it has been done. Consider allowing
your hired help to affix their own SMALL stamp somewhere on the piece, and
you signing the bottom.
> I have a friend, a work-at-home-mom, whose little "hobby" cloth diaper
making business suddenly grew and ate her lifeAnybody been there? Is
it uncool to hire help? Am I on my way to becoming a sweatshop? Is wholesale
a bad idea? Speak to me, oh wise potters, before I make a commitment here...
The "bad" thing is if you get to the point where you say OMG I HAVE TO MAKE
MORE OF THOSE DAMN WHUPEEGADGETS!!! Sometimes even a small number of the
same thing will make you crosseyed, and make you procrastinate or hate going
to the wheel in the first place. *(Been THERE since before Christmas; I am
as I type this, firing a load of stuff that was thrown in 2000...)* You
have to charge enough to cover your cost and make a profit. That price goes
up if you have to hire help. OTOH, if hiring help keeps you from hating the
wheel, it's worth the $.
L
Ned Ludd on wed 30 may 01
--- primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM wrote:
> Anybody been there? Is it uncool to hire help? Am I
> on my way to becoming a sweatshop? Is wholesale a
> bad idea? Speak to me, oh wise potters, before I
> make a commitment here...
>
> Yours, kelly in Ohio
>
> Anybody been there? Is it uncool to hire help? Am I
on my way to
> becoming a sweatshop? Is wholesale a bad idea? Speak
to me, oh wise
> potters, before I make a commitment here...
>
> Yours, kelly in Ohio
I been there, Kelly - from the other side. I've thrown
for many potters.. England, where I trained, Canada
and USA.
No it's not uncool. How could it be with names like
Hamada, Leach , Cardew, Casson,
Mark Hewitt and crew in NC with his colossal kiln!
Many others.. Finch, Caiger-Smith, Bowen, Eeles, De
Trey, Pollex... and that's just a few of the best
British potters who employed assistants. They all
wholesaled too.
Not trying to dissuade you, but hiring one thrower and
nobody else is actually harder for you as you have no
help in dealing with the _many_ more pots that demand
completion, firing, marketing, shipping etc. In a
pottery a team of two is not always better than one.
IMHO, for lots of pots coming along easily, three in a
pottery is better
than two, and four better than three. More than six
.. and it's a factory. :-/
Just my 2cents. Best wishes and happy firings, Kelly!
Ned
in the heat of Chico, California, where every non air
conditioned studio is now a sweatshop, like it or not!
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primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM on wed 30 may 01
I have had some wonderful responses to my production for hire question (off list) but my question has raised more questions.
Is it uncool to have somebody else do the throwing? I ain't chihuly, or picasso, here, altering thrown works to make art. I assumed I would sign the studio name instead of mine if I had a "collaborater", but that still seems kind of odd when I think about it. I am not a factory, or a large scale pottery, I'm just a woman with a studio, making pots; is it unethical to sell somebody else's throwing work, even if I'm doing the altering/decorating/glazing/etc?
It's also interesting that a guy who wrote me about having worked as production-potter-for-hire felt the same way about some of his jobs as I feel about the contract I've been offered: specifically, "how fair is it that the company will be making half on the sale of the pot, when I did the work?" If I hired somebody to help me, they might be grumbling over my profit margin while I grumble over what the distributor is making...
The harder I look the more complicated this gets. The other concern is that if I say no, the company might find somebody else to make "my" pot and I could scarcely compete with their big catalog and advertising budget...
I may never have the "problem" of more sales that I can handle, even if I agree to the wholesale contract. I am just looking around for a safety net if I get a deluge of orders.
I have a friend, a work-at-home-mom, whose little "hobby" cloth diaper making business suddenly grew and ate her life, strained her marriage, left her neglecting her kids, stressed out, battling migraines. She's trying to hire sewers help her keep up, and wishing she had never gotten into this mess. She has also had to lower her standards to stay in business, since she can't hire sewers as picky as she is about details like twisted elastics, perfect seams, snaps and gathers.
Anybody been there? Is it uncool to hire help? Am I on my way to becoming a sweatshop? Is wholesale a bad idea? Speak to me, oh wise potters, before I make a commitment here...
Yours, kelly in Ohio
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Dannon Rhudy on wed 30 may 01
At 12:56 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote:
...>Is it uncool to have somebody else do the throwing? .....
.. is it unethical to sell somebody else's throwing work,
even if I'm doing the altering/decorating/glazing/etc?....
Kelly. You're getting the cart before the horse, AND forgetting
that many, many potteries have more than one person throwing.
Of course it is not unethical to sell work from your pottery
that you hired someone to throw. Even if you hired someone to
do ALL the work it would not be unethical to sell it. If you
pay the worker a mutually agreed upon sum, either by the piece or
by the hour, then you may do as you wish with the work. The
only part you need be concerned with is "mutually
agreed-upon sum". If you need the help, and they need the
work - that's what commerce is. Imagine having the opportunity
yourself, to work at the wheel for someone, learning/perfecting
skills, and getting paid for it. Many would like the chance.
So calm down, already. Remember that lots of production
potteries have multiple throwers, and that lots of people
who prefer to do the decorating seldom throw their own work.
And, vice versa. I've known potters who ONLY did the
throwing, hired others to do the trimming, glazing, and/or firing.
And whoever/whatever person(s) buy your work for resale can
sell it for whatever amount they wish, once you are paid. Sell
to them for a fair price. Expect them to sell it for enough
for THEM to make a profit. That's reasonable.
It's ok to make a living.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
craig clark on thu 31 may 01
Kelly, sweatshops are always a bad idea. They are not just unethical,
they are immoral. If you decide to hire someone to do your throwing for you
that does not mean that you will be running a sweat shop. SweatShops tend to
be run by folks who (1) refuse to acknowledge that sweatshops exist and even
if they admit to there existence they tend to believe that the poor folks
who work in them ought to be thankful for the chance to earn a penny.
Afterall, if it wasn't for them (the sweatshop owner, they believe) the
employees would have nothing (2) Are so caught up in the bottom line that
they loose sight of not just their own humanity but that of the individuals
that work for them as well. It doesn't sound to me like you fit into these
catagories. The questions that you are publicly grappling with bear
testimony to this.
I guess this means that I don't think that it is necessarily a bad idea
to hire someone to do your throwing for you: especially if you treat them
with dignity and respect, and would rather not do the throwing yourself. I
also agree with what David said. You might find yourself consummed by the
business of the business before you know it (as you illustrated with the
example of your friend who became consummed with the diaper biz.) Why do you
work with clay? Do
you enjoy throwing? How much money do you need to make?
Additionally, I do not think that it's wrong to put the name of the
pottery on the work if you do the decoration, throwing, or are only involved
on an administrative or design level. You referenced Chahuli in your post.
He does a lot of drawing, design and promotion. I don't thing he's spun or
blown any glass, atleast not much, since he lost an eye back in the
seventies. It's kind of difficult to do hot glass work without binocular
vision (screws up the depth perception.) Nobody can say that he is not the
brains and energy behind that decorative glass colossus that he has nurtured
and built over the past three decades. His name is what people are after.
That is what is worth so much money. Hence, his name is on everything, as
far as I know, that comes out of his glass works, even though he does very
little of the physical labor. I have also been told, though I have no way of
checking the veracity of the statement, that he has highly skilled craftsmen
working for him that he pays quite well. Though I'd be willing to bet that
he
has some kid pushing a broom around the studio floor for minimum wage.
Where I do think that an adverse ethical question would be begged is if
you were to promote yourself as the craftman of a piece when you are not.
This offense would be further compounded if it involved the design, forming
and decoration done by another and then claimed as your own. Once again, let
me reiterate so that I am not misinterpreted, you do not sound like someone
who would do this.
It is my belief that a personal signature on a pot, much like the
signature at the end of this post, implies that I am the author. THis means
that I think that a craftsman/artist needs to be involved at either a design
or physical level in the conseption and birth of a piece before they can
call it their own.This begs further questions, too numerous to address, and
beyond the intent, of this thread. Go back and read Hobbs if you are so
inclined. You may find a few answers, and more questions there.
For futher, more expansive philosophical or political commentary and/or
if you would like to hear me rail on about the evils of unfettered
capitalism please contact me off the thread.
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, TX 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org
-----Original Message-----
From: primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: or is production for hire uncool?
>I have had some wonderful responses to my production for hire question (off
list) but my question has raised more questions.
>
>Is it uncool to have somebody else do the throwing? I ain't chihuly, or
picasso, here, altering thrown works to make art. I assumed I would sign the
studio name instead of mine if I had a "collaborater", but that still seems
kind of odd when I think about it. I am not a factory, or a large scale
pottery, I'm just a woman with a studio, making pots; is it unethical to
sell somebody else's throwing work, even if I'm doing the
altering/decorating/glazing/etc?
>
>It's also interesting that a guy who wrote me about having worked as
production-potter-for-hire felt the same way about some of his jobs as I
feel about the contract I've been offered: specifically, "how fair is it
that the company will be making half on the sale of the pot, when I did the
work?" If I hired somebody to help me, they might be grumbling over my
profit margin while I grumble over what the distributor is making...
>
>The harder I look the more complicated this gets. The other concern is that
if I say no, the company might find somebody else to make "my" pot and I
could scarcely compete with their big catalog and advertising budget...
>
>I may never have the "problem" of more sales that I can handle, even if I
agree to the wholesale contract. I am just looking around for a safety net
if I get a deluge of orders.
>
>I have a friend, a work-at-home-mom, whose little "hobby" cloth diaper
making business suddenly grew and ate her life, strained her marriage, left
her neglecting her kids, stressed out, battling migraines. She's trying to
hire sewers help her keep up, and wishing she had never gotten into this
mess. She has also had to lower her standards to stay in business, since she
can't hire sewers as picky as she is about details like twisted elastics,
perfect seams, snaps and gathers.
>
>Anybody been there? Is it uncool to hire help? Am I on my way to becoming a
sweatshop? Is wholesale a bad idea? Speak to me, oh wise potters, before I
make a commitment here...
>
>Yours, kelly in Ohio
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>iVillage.com: Solutions for Your Life
>Check out the most exciting women's community on the Web
>http://www.ivillage.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Nikki Simmons on thu 31 may 01
Hi Kelly,
I think it is all in your point of view, and what you want to accomplish.
The woman that I apprenticed with had major surgery one time (I think when
she was 74 or 75 years old) and hired a guy to come in and throw pots to her
specs. Then she took care of the rest. It gave her an opportunity to heal
and get some new ideas, AND continue to make money. But she felt it was
important for her customers to know that she did not do all the work and had
him sign the pots along with her name. She enjoyed it and told me she would
easily do it again if she needed to. The bottom line was that her customers
did not mind because they buy her persona, not necessarily the pot.
Sincerely,
Nikki Simmons
nsimmons@mid-mo.net
-----Original Message-----
...>Is it uncool to have somebody else do the throwing? .....
.. is it unethical to sell somebody else's throwing work,
even if I'm doing the altering/decorating/glazing/etc?....
WHC228@AOL.COM on thu 31 may 01
Kelly
I am doing a workshop on mass production on June 6th from 2:00 until 4:00 at
the Riverbend ART Center in Dayton Ohio. There is a whole week of classes on
developing business, and marketing skills.
It sounds like you could use this conference.
Phone 937 333 7000
Fax 937 333 3158
There are a lot of issues to consider before expanding your business.
Bill Campbell
Jeff Lawrence on sun 3 jun 01
Craig worries that noble clay workers be downtrodden in sweatshops
run by rapacious and disrespectful employers.
Hi Craig and clayart,
Manufacturing in the USA is a dying arena because higher quality
labor is available elsewhere in the world for much less. For example,
the Mexicans who made my imported ceramic ware did a great job and
the labor component was 10% of domestic labor costs.
Clay sweatshops certainly existed in the past, when clay was staple
commodity
in storage containers and plumbing. Plastics and metals have replaced clay
in the "need to have" categories. In my view, Marxist rhetoric about
clay sweatshops and disrespectful employers ignores several market
realities:
(1) Anyone who runs a domestic ceramics business typically earns less for
their business-running skills than in, say, a copy franchise or an import
company. Check with the employees of successful clay companies and you'll
find
employees share in business success in the form of benefits and a good
working
environment.
(2) Good employees do get respect. In fact, merely having good intentions
will keep a marginal employee employed longer than is justified by their
productivity simply because that attitude is rare. Far more common in my
experience
is an aggrieved entitlement attitude which preoccupies affected employees to
the
point that they don't actually produce much. I've also noticed that shrill
demands for respect come exclusively from those employees who deserve it
least.
If you care about the future of clay working jobs in the US, I suggest that
uninformed innuendoes against those people working to create those jobs
don't serve your purpose. If you are interested in the topic as a political
matter, I hope these observations from the employer point of view are useful
to you.
Jeff Lawrence ph. 505-753-5913
18496 US HWY 84/285 fx. 505-753-8074
Espanola, NM 87532 jml@cybermesa.com
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