Matt MacIntire on sun 3 jun 01
Hi Sonya,
Welcome to the list.
Regarding the difference between porcelain and stoneware... If you can
learn to throw with porcelain, you must have a strong native ability with
clay. I've always considered that it was harder to throw with porcelain
than with a fat, toothy stoneware.
I find I can make pots out of stoneware clay that are much more lively.
Maybe it's the way I work, but stoneware clay seems much more responsive.
Some people like the way porcelain feels. To me, porcelain always seemed
sort of glibby compared to stoneware.
Nothing responds to the human touch like clay. No clay records a potters
touch so well as a good stoneware. Good stoneware pots sometimes look like
the potter has somehow breathed life into them. I don't see many porcelain
pots that are that lively, though porcelain can be beautiful in a different
way.
I enjoy an elegant porcelain piece, but I think that few people who work
with porcelain use it wisely. A clunky pot made out of porcelain does not
thrill me. Far better to be a humble stoneware piece and have some
vitality. Porcelain seems... so refined, so elegant and maybe a bit aloof.
I go more for the rustic and primitive. Maybe I am not disciplined enough
to work with porcelain.
Since you are probably trying different things... let me suggest...
Find a nice toothy stoneware clay and try making some pots. Maybe try a
slow wheel and try throwing with less water. Try some large pieces with
10-20 pounds of clay. Then go back and make some small ones afterwards.
See what you think about stoneware.
You may find that if you get hooked on clay, you will keep coming back to it
for years -- it can be mesmerizing. There is so much to learn. So many
things to master. Enough for many lifetimes. At times clay can be a
discouraging medium. There are so many opportunities to ruin your best
work. But when it all comes together, it is enormously satisfying. Clay
just keeps tantalizing you with what it could become with your own special
touch.
you asked about background...
A LONG time ago, I took classes in a university environment where we had
complete freedom, but little real technical or aesthetic framework. I can't
decide if I think it would be better to learn from a master or find your own
way. I think it depends what your goal is. If you want to quickly become
proficient, learning the (proven) ways of a master is probably best.
Eventually you could develop your own eye. But if you have the guts,
learning on your own may ultimately make you find your own way. I think it
is harder to teach yourself, but you may be better off in the end. In fact
though, with all the books around, no one is really self taught. I was
taught by folks I never met. Fortunately they were good writers.
good luck to you...
Matt
Sonya on sun 3 jun 01
Hi all;
I joined the list a couple of days ago and am looking forward to reading
all kinds of great info on the clay arts. I've only been working with the
wheel for a couple of months, and during that time, I've been using only
porcelain clay. Our class had the option of that or stoneware, and I chose
the former because I liked the smooth surface. Yesterday I worked with
stoneware for the first time, and the difference was amazing! At first I
didn't like it at all; it seemed to slide right out of my fingers. Then I
noticed that it was easier to center, and was much more malleable -- so
much so, that my pots were getting too thin too fast! I think I really like
it, though; at least, I want to try more with it. I was wondering what
others' opinions on the difference are.
Also, if I might ask, how long have you professional, expert potters, who
are buying kilns and clay, been at it? Has it been a lifelong passion? Did
you start by taking classes, were you taught by a friend or family member?
Did you ever get discouraged and want to give it up? Sorry for all the
questions, but I feel lately like a kid who's just discovered the joys of
riding her first bike; it's all I want to talk about (and don't my friends
and husband love that. heh.) :)
Thanks, all!
Sonya
Terrance Lazaroff on sun 3 jun 01
Sonya;
Welcome to the Clayart list. I am very happy you discovered the wonderful
world of clay. I believe you were right when you said that you couldn't
wait to read all the great info on the board.
I recommend that you start with the archives. These files go back 5yrs or
more and you will be able to catch up on the area of intrest to you before
you start asking questions that may not get a response as soon as you wish.
Again welcome to the list.
Terrance
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sonya"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:32 PM
Subject: Newbie - porcelain vs. stoneware, etc.
> Hi all;
>
> I joined the list a couple of days ago and am looking forward to reading
> all kinds of great info on the clay arts. I've only been working with the
> wheel for a couple of months, and during that time, I've been using only
> porcelain clay. Our class had the option of that or stoneware, and I chose
> the former because I liked the smooth surface. Yesterday I worked with
> stoneware for the first time, and the difference was amazing! At first I
> didn't like it at all; it seemed to slide right out of my fingers. Then I
> noticed that it was easier to center, and was much more malleable -- so
> much so, that my pots were getting too thin too fast! I think I really
like
> it, though; at least, I want to try more with it. I was wondering what
> others' opinions on the difference are.
>
> Also, if I might ask, how long have you professional, expert potters, who
> are buying kilns and clay, been at it? Has it been a lifelong passion? Did
> you start by taking classes, were you taught by a friend or family member?
> Did you ever get discouraged and want to give it up? Sorry for all the
> questions, but I feel lately like a kid who's just discovered the joys of
> riding her first bike; it's all I want to talk about (and don't my friends
> and husband love that. heh.) :)
>
> Thanks, all!
> Sonya
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jody Lebrenz on sun 3 jun 01
Sonya,
I am sure you will get all manner of replies to your
post. Here's my simple story:
> I joined the list a couple of days ago and am
> looking forward to reading
> all kinds of great info on the clay arts.
I read a majority of the post to clayart daily and am
thrilled with having access to such great info. I
have also posted more than one question to the group
and can't tell you how pleased it felt to get quick
and thoughtful answers so don't be shy about asking
for help. I would advise checking the archives first
to see if anything has been posted on your topic, most
likely there will be some helpful info there.
> Also, if I might ask, how long have you
> professional, expert potters, who
> are buying kilns and clay, been at it?
I can assure you that I am neither a professional or
an expert and have only been throwing for about a year
and a half full time. It only took a couple of months
to decide to forgo my studio's firing fee and build a
studio in my basement complete with wheel and kiln and
have never regretted doing this for a second.
>Has it been a lifelong passion?
Nope, just about a two year passion but hopefully a
lifetime ahead.
>Did you start by taking classes, were you taught by a
> friend or family member?
Took a short 6 week class but since I was a librarian
in my previous life I learned mostly from reading (any
thing about clay I could get my hands on from articles
to books to videos.) GO TO YOUR LOCAL PUBLIC AND
UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES if available. This learning
method may not work for everyone but it sure works
great for me.
Recently, in an effort to connect with people outside
of my basement, I enrolled at my local community
college and took an introductory class. Met such
great and helpful people and recently just completed
an Independent study class on saggar firing--thrilled
with the results!
> Did you ever get discouraged and want to give it up?
Not really, though I haven't been at this long,
sometimes I don't want to go to the basement but once
there am always glad I did. Sometimes my hands hurt
after doing a lot of wedging but now they wedge just
fine with no pain.
>it's all I want to talk about
> (and don't my friends
> and husband love that. heh.) :)
ME TOO! Just went to 100 Artisans Craft show today
for the 2nd time this weekend to see great pottery and
ceramics, luckily my wife loves and shares greatly in
my new life.
Thought I might also mention that I recently connected
up with a small summer shopkeeper who wanted to
include a line of local pottery. I had her to my
house for a "private" showing of my work (pretty much
everything worth saving since I started) and she loved
it. I put 130 pieces at the shop and sold almost 1/3
at the shops opening and now have a permanent place to
display and sell work. Up until this time I never
even thought of selling my work yet. The moral of
this story for me is that one is ready to sell when
someone else is ready to buy and you are ready to let
your babies go out into the world alone. Don't wait
or look for some pre-determined time frame to consider
your items worthy for sharing with strangers.
Best wishes,
jody
DISCLAIMER: This is only my story and I love living it.
__________________________________________________
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Sonya on sun 3 jun 01
Excellent advice; I've spent some time already perusing the "Centering"
thread and gotten some great info on this sometimes vexing subject!
My project today, since the studio is closed on Sundays, was to start a
sketchbook of ideas for handbuilding projects. I find that early in the
morning before I'm quite awake, I get half-dreams of things I could build,
and I'd like to get them on paper.
Some days I can't wait for the next opportunity to get back in the studio!
Sonya
------
On 6/3/01, Terrance Lazaroff said:
>Sonya;
>
>Welcome to the Clayart list. I am very happy you discovered the wonderful
>world of clay. I believe you were right when you said that you couldn't
>wait to read all the great info on the board.
>
>I recommend that you start with the archives. These files go back 5yrs or
>more and you will be able to catch up on the area of intrest to you before
>you start asking questions that may not get a response as soon as you wish.
>
>Again welcome to the list.
>
>Terrance
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sonya"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:32 PM
>Subject: Newbie - porcelain vs. stoneware, etc.
>
>
>> Hi all;
>>
>> I joined the list a couple of days ago and am looking forward to reading
>> all kinds of great info on the clay arts. I've only been working with the
>> wheel for a couple of months, and during that time, I've been using only
>> porcelain clay. Our class had the option of that or stoneware, and I chose
>> the former because I liked the smooth surface. Yesterday I worked with
>> stoneware for the first time, and the difference was amazing! At first I
>> didn't like it at all; it seemed to slide right out of my fingers. Then I
>> noticed that it was easier to center, and was much more malleable -- so
>> much so, that my pots were getting too thin too fast! I think I really
>like
>> it, though; at least, I want to try more with it. I was wondering what
>> others' opinions on the difference are.
>>
>> Also, if I might ask, how long have you professional, expert potters, who
>> are buying kilns and clay, been at it? Has it been a lifelong passion? Did
>> you start by taking classes, were you taught by a friend or family member?
>> Did you ever get discouraged and want to give it up? Sorry for all the
>> questions, but I feel lately like a kid who's just discovered the joys of
>> riding her first bike; it's all I want to talk about (and don't my friends
>> and husband love that. heh.) :)
>>
>> Thanks, all!
>> Sonya
>>
>>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Timakia@AOL.COM on sun 3 jun 01
Sonja, welcome to the world of clay. You might find that it become
addictive. Yes, we all get discouraged from time to time, but clay has a way
to keep on challenging some of us and we keep going back.
Clay are divided in three main kinds: Stoneware, porcelain and earthenware.
Stoneware and earthenware can be in shades from white to black, depending on
the oxides (mostly iron) in it. Theses clays can be coarse to smooth,
depending on the, sand or grog, etc., in the clay. Grog is often added to
the clay to "open it up" so that it can dry more evenly. One will also add
grog to build larger, stronger walls and decrease the shrinking process.
Porcelain clay is a very fine and almost pure clay with no oxides to color
it. It change to a glass like mass when fired to the correct temperature. One
find a low firing porcelain as well as a high firing porcelain.
The temperature to which a clay can fire helps to determine in which category
to place it. There are much more than just what I wrote here. Try get hold of
the book "clay and glazes for the studio potter" by Daniel Rhodes and
upgraded by Robin Hopper. Many potters books will help you to understand the
different kinds of clay and glaze materials better. It will also help you to
get what you want from the clay that you are working with. Remember, there
are just as much chemistry in clay as there are art and technique. Once you
start understanding that, many things will become easier to achieve.
Happy potting.
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,MS
38866
http://hometown.aol.com/timakia
Craig Martell on mon 4 jun 01
Matt sez:
>No clay records a potters touch so well as a good stoneware. Good
>stoneware pots sometimes look like the potter has somehow breathed life
>into them. I don't see many porcelain pots that are that lively,
Hello Matt:
I realize that preferences with clays and how one works with them are very
subjective and we all have a bias as to our own work and how we use
materials etc. Having said that, my following thoughts are based on my own
bias and experience with porcelain. I've probably thrown around 50 or so
tons of the stuff over the past 25 years.
The fine grained nature of porcelain is a better recorder of touch and
detail than most stonewares and the whiteness and fineness will ehibit this
detailing thru most glazes, clear and opaque. Salt glazing really shows
the detail best I think. The liveliness of porcelain is determined by the
maker and the experience that person has with the clay. I've seen
porcelain pieces that are incredibly lively. Tom Coleman and Tom Turner
come to mind as well as Malcom Davis. I have a small porcelain bowl by
Vivika Heino that is so lively that it will jump off the table if I don't
keep something in it.
>I enjoy an elegant porcelain piece, but I think that few people who work
>with porcelain use it wisely.
That's pretty subjective too and I don't mind you saying that as long as
the intent isn't meant as an absolute. There may be tons of us that don't
use any of our materials and processes wisely but I wouldn't say that
porcelain is the most unwisely used clay in the ceramic field. I wouldn't
want to be the one to do a survey and write up statistics on the prudent
use of anything.
Some of the best technical throwers I've known have been porcelain
potters. They weren't better or more tuned than stoneware potters. I'm
just saying that they are very good. Two people that come to mind are
David and Margaret Frith. I think Margaret makes more porcelain than David
but they are both excellent potters and make some of the nicest work I've seen.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
Matt MacIntire on mon 4 jun 01
uh oh, what have I started now...
Obviously I never meant to imply that porcelain pots are necessarily stodgy
and lifeless. Porcelain can be gorgeous and full of vitality. My thinking
was that porcelain requires a different approach and sensibility.
Somehow when I see a mediocre stoneware pot, I can accept it. But when I
see a pot made out of porcelain, but made without any real affinity for what
porcelain could be, that offends me. Many potters seem to regard porcelain
as just another clay that happens to be white. At it's best, porcelain
seems much more than that. I intended my comments to come from a reverence
for porcelain, not any disdain.
Having said that...
I must confess that I see far greater numbers of stoneware pots that have
this "vitality" and integrity that we all admire. When I go to see revered
ancient works of stoneware and porcelain, the porcelain pieces have a
dignity and reserve that is very different from stoneware that has been
casually made. It is probably this austere elegance that classic porcelain
has which makes me tend to think of stoneware when I think of "lively" pots.
I have no doubt that there are many potters who make porcelain sing.
Sadly, I have mostly experienced the works of great porcelain through
photographs. (But this is perhaps equally true for stoneware) The main
pieces of porcelain ware that I have seen closely are the classic Chinese
porcelains that are in nearby museums. I've never held a piece made by Tom
Coleman, but I have held some fine old Sung porcelain pieces. No wonder my
view is somewhat skewed, eh?
And finally, for the record...
When I said that few people who work with porcelain use it wisely, I should
have crafted my words more prudently. It is out of admiration for
what porcelain can be in the right hands, that I take some umbrage at those
who use it carelessly.
Matt
Cyberpotter@AOL.COM on mon 4 jun 01
Sonya:
Welcome! I'll skirt the issue of when one becomes what "level" of potter and
call myself a fanatically addicted clayart-lurking association-joining
book-buying self-goal-setting advanced beginner. ;-) I throw because I love
the process and the challenge. Kind of like why other people golf, or join
chess clubs. Other than being helped hands-on by the local arts center
pottery studio manager to center and pull up the wall of "my" first pot, I am
mostly self-taught. That was about 3 or 4 years ago, and ever since, I have
been "doing" clay as often as I can get studio time, which is usually 3 times
a week for about 3 hours at a time. To my delight I discovered about a year
ago that I had become a studio fixture, and was being watched admiringly by a
new crop of struggling newbies - whoo-ee!
Almost since the beginning of my addiction, I have alternated between brown
stoneware and porcelain. The polarity helped me develop real feel for both
the clay and my own hands, which was hard for me - I tended to be very
visual. Some forms were easier to learn to throw in one clay vs. the other,
and transferring the skills back and forth really helped me understand. As a
beginner, I threw very light and thin and smallish in both stoneware and
porcelain, but as my skills developed, my techniques for the two clay bodies
have diverged.
It took me a couple of years to hit upon the "discovery" that has really
helped me maximize the value of my limited studio time and make real
progress. It is, simply, imposing structure on my self-instruction. Becoming
self-DIRECTED in addition to being self-taught. (This is by the way very much
against my scattershot nature...) For example, a couple of months ago, I set
myself the task of really exploring the concept and execution of "The Bowl".
I started by throwing lots of smaller types of porcelain bowls. Then I threw
lots of little stoneware bowls. Then, large stoneware bowls. Now I am
developing my hand and eye for larger porcelain bowls. Each of these steps
has been subdivided into understanding the what and wherefore of various
functional / traditional shapes and styles... Like rice bowls... cereal
bowls... flat-edged soup/stew bowls... popcorn bowls... deep, authoritative
mixing bowls... silly scallopy candy bowls... as well as experimenting with
different techniques, hand positions and tools. It has been a blast! It's
amazing how much I have learned, how much has crystallized in my mind and my
muscles, by just doing bowls. Every time I go to the studio I find I have a
new bowl-related idea or mini-goal to work on.
I have let myself off the hook along the way... throwing in the occasional
bottle , teapot, or mug, and even some slabwork... but then I return to the
task. When I get to the point where I feel my larger porcelain bowls are the
equal of my other bowls, I know my next goal. Focus on plates and platters. I
know it's a good goal because part of me is dreading it! Just like I felt
about bowls a few months ago.
Nancy in Cincinnati, where it has rained so much these past weeks that I'm
beginning to wonder about ark-building lessons....
Carrie or Peter Jacobson on tue 5 jun 01
Greetings, all - A couple months into learning to throw, I found porcelain.
The gig was up for me at that point. It was like finding my true love - the
attraction was instant, electric, deep.
And then I had to get to know the stuff. I'm still doing that, and suspect I
will be for my whole pottery life, which I hope is long and happy and
involved with porcelain till death do us part.
This affair is not one-dimensional. It is hear and head, body and soul. It's
love and hate, some days, and a joyful dance on others. I found porcelain
and it found me, and for better or worse, we're united.
I like it because of the way it feels in my hands. I like how smooth it is.
I like how white it is. I like how responsive it is. I like how translucent
it can be. I like how fragile it is.
I also sometimes hate how smooth it is, how white it is, how responsive it
is, how fragile. I hate how it collapses when I don't do it right. I hate
how it sits there, blankly, looking at me, taunting, saying - hey, you threw
me as thick as stoneware, so why don't you just go get stoneware???
That, I suspect, is what Matt was saying. I see porcelain pieces all over
the place - some at home! (But fewer now than ever) - that might as well
have been stoneware, they are so thick and heavy. I've done this myself,
thrown this lovely elegant material in forms that just don't suit it, or me,
or get anywhere near what I am trying to do, what I am seeing.
For my own self, there is a line with the stuff. If the piece I'm making
doesn't embody my ideas and the quality of the material, and I realize that,
I smush it.
Wish relationships were that easy, eh?
Carrie Jacobson
Bolster's Mills, Maine
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