primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM on mon 18 jun 01
A small vent, here, with a moral to the story. Not entirely off topic for a woman potter.
My 50's-era parents, with the best intentions, prepared us for what they assumed would be our future. My brother, being male, was subjected to summer jobs, money management, mechanics, wall street, woodworking, and other skills that would assure his future as a breadwinner and "man of the house".
I, on the other hand, was taught to cook and sew, clean house, and tend babies in preparation for my own future. My school had only girls in home economic class, only boys in shop class. Making a living was never stressed, since my husband (supposedly)would one day handle all that; I was blissfully ignorant of the world of business, the purpose of a bench grinder or the basics of an electrical circuit. Dad sent me to college, he said, for an "MRS. degree". (To find a husband.)
(Now, don't get me wrong, I was no "barbie doll"... I hunted and fished, and worked alongside the men at any job. But here's the funny part..)
My brother married a career woman and had to learn to feed and dress himself, do laundry, sew on a button. I married a man who was poor as a church mouse, and supported my family for 5 years while he went to school. I learned the hard way to manage money, and now my pottery biz. With the help of library books and a large tolerance for error we built an addition and later the studio, and as hubby dislikes heights I had to roof them myself. We saw way too much of the building/plumbing inspectors.
As a potter, I had no idea about basic procedures or safety in grinding, cutting bats, messing with electronics, building shelves or a wheel. I have no chemistry at all to help me mix glazes, no physics, little math, no business training. I'd give anything to be able to weld; even solder.
I am not claiming "poor victim of society" status here; obviously where there's a will, there's a way, and the resources are out there to teach yourself if you need to. I could have made different choices, if I'd had any idea what my otions were. And my parents/schools had no crystal ball to predict the changes of the 60s and 70s, or the paths we would choose in life.
But I often think how much frustration I'd have been spared if someone had thought to show me how to sharpen a chainsaw, change my oil, use an arc welder. If girl scouts had done fire building and knot tying instead of baked goods and crafts. If my guidance counselor had seen a need for chemistry, carpentry and physics in my future.
As a former teacher, I can say that some of those old gender stereotypes are still in place. If you have kids in school, (or homeschool), please be sure they don't get half an education! Since I can't predict the future, I need to make sure kids get a bit of everything.
Any assumptions worry me. People say, "the big money for our kids will be in computers"... assuming that computers will rule the next century, and that big money will be the goal for our kids. There have been some efforts to push girls into high powered, formerly male dominated careers, but I still see college men unable/unwilling to cook a meal or master the art of washing clothes.
The old messages are still out there, on TV and in the assumptions of my parents' generation. So please, be aware; if you teach, parent, or in any way deal with children, plant a seed in their minds. Convince them that there are no categories of learning that are not potentially relevant to their lives.
Just hindsight from a woman who's tired of playing catch-up. For what it's worth.
Yours, Kelly in Ohio (who, incidentally, can't clean house or sew worth a damn either. When I was in the workshop in tennessee, my mom did some ironing and was surrounded by my curious kids asking, "what are you doing? what's that thing? why do you do that to your clothes? ;0D )
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pammyam on mon 18 jun 01
Dear Snail,
Amen.
I wanted to take shop class in high school, but
wasn't allowed. I lasted about five minutes in
home economics. Because of aptitude testing, I
was "college bound." While that hasn't
particularly hurt me, it just didn't exactly
foster me. I, too, end up doing tasks that I am
not prepared for and learn on the fly. I tried to
sew and I tried to embroider, but I was, er, too
"creative" in my attempts to put it mildly and
kindly.
Oh, and put the boys in home economics, too.
Pam
----- Original Message -----
From: primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 7:05 PM
Subject: put your daughters in shop class
A small vent, here, with a moral to the story.
Not entirely off topic for a woman potter.
My 50's-era parents, with the best intentions,
prepared us for what they assumed would be our
future. My brother, being male, was subjected to
summer jobs, money management, mechanics, wall
street, woodworking, and other skills that would
assure his future as a breadwinner and "man of the
house".
I, on the other hand, was taught to cook and
sew, clean house, and tend babies in preparation
for my own future. My school had only girls in
home economic class, only boys in shop class.
Making a living was never stressed, since my
husband (supposedly)would one day handle all that;
I was blissfully ignorant of the world of
business, the purpose of a bench grinder or the
basics of an electrical circuit. Dad sent me to
college, he said, for an "MRS. degree". (To find a
husband.)
(Now, don't get me wrong, I was no "barbie
doll"... I hunted and fished, and worked alongside
the men at any job. But here's the funny part..)
My brother married a career woman and had to
learn to feed and dress himself, do laundry, sew
on a button. I married a man who was poor as a
church mouse, and supported my family for 5 years
while he went to school. I learned the hard way to
manage money, and now my pottery biz. With the
help of library books and a large tolerance for
error we built an addition and later the studio,
and as hubby dislikes heights I had to roof them
myself. We saw way too much of the
building/plumbing inspectors.
As a potter, I had no idea about basic
procedures or safety in grinding, cutting bats,
messing with electronics, building shelves or a
wheel. I have no chemistry at all to help me mix
glazes, no physics, little math, no business
training. I'd give anything to be able to weld;
even solder.
I am not claiming "poor victim of society"
status here; obviously where there's a will,
there's a way, and the resources are out there to
teach yourself if you need to. I could have made
different choices, if I'd had any idea what my
otions were. And my parents/schools had no crystal
ball to predict the changes of the 60s and 70s, or
the paths we would choose in life.
But I often think how much frustration I'd have
been spared if someone had thought to show me how
to sharpen a chainsaw, change my oil, use an arc
welder. If girl scouts had done fire building and
knot tying instead of baked goods and crafts. If
my guidance counselor had seen a need for
chemistry, carpentry and physics in my future.
As a former teacher, I can say that some of
those old gender stereotypes are still in place.
If you have kids in school, (or homeschool),
please be sure they don't get half an education!
Since I can't predict the future, I need to make
sure kids get a bit of everything.
Any assumptions worry me. People say, "the big
money for our kids will be in computers"...
assuming that computers will rule the next
century, and that big money will be the goal for
our kids. There have been some efforts to push
girls into high powered, formerly male dominated
careers, but I still see college men
unable/unwilling to cook a meal or master the art
of washing clothes.
The old messages are still out there, on TV and
in the assumptions of my parents' generation. So
please, be aware; if you teach, parent, or in any
way deal with children, plant a seed in their
minds. Convince them that there are no categories
of learning that are not potentially relevant to
their lives.
Just hindsight from a woman who's tired of
playing catch-up. For what it's worth.
Yours, Kelly in Ohio (who, incidentally, can't
clean house or sew worth a damn either. When I was
in the workshop in tennessee, my mom did some
ironing and was surrounded by my curious kids
asking, "what are you doing? what's that thing?
why do you do that to your clothes? ;0D )
__________________________________________________
_______________
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the Web
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Katheleen Nez on tue 19 jun 01
Dear Kelly: What motivated the VENT? Truly truly I
think women in this country, certainly (I can't speak
for the rest of the world), of a certain generation
dealt with a lot of stereotypical caa-caa as to what
our roles in life would be. But every now and again
one or more of us managed to break out of the mold and
learn useful things. Like how to maintain a car (by my
father) or how to weld (at my Navajo community
college) or how to build a house (by my ex-husband),
and we should be examples for the rest of the people
out there that 'it can be done.' It's also good to
know how to cook a good meal (also learned some of
this from my ex-husband, as well as an ex-boyfriend,
both better cooks than me) and how to sew (make money
by making your own clothing designs-one way to make it
thru college) and maintain the body (all my friends
who never raised children and so don't know symptoms
or how to treat maladies - from experience). Best of
all, it's best to be an example to your children and
show them that the stereotypical lifestyle needs
reexamination...NEZ
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Nikki Simmons on tue 19 jun 01
Oh Kelly,
How many times have I said, "Amen" after reading one of your posts, it is
like deja vu. Attachment Parenting, Breastfeeding, Home schooling, Potters
that we are. Now I can add to the list, perpetually frustrated with a to do
list that every item requires me to learn a major new skill in order to
accomplish. And when I do go to the monumental effort, I often find my head
beating against a brick wall. And then you have to buy the tools!!!!!
I am sure you can relate to this...
In exchange for picking up ceramics supplies for a friend, she offers her
husband (industrial electrician) to look at my kiln which has recently
started "zapping" me. I desperately want to learn more about my kiln and
how to fix it myself. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on.
So the husband comes over, fixes it in 10 minutes. Darn it, he worked too
fast, I did not get a chance to watch him. So I ask what was wrong with it,
and he gives me the look of "don't worry about it, I fixed it for you
blondey". "No really," I say. I would like to know what you did. "It was
just a simple little thing, don't worry about it." After much pestering, he
gives me a little information, but presents it in such a way that I have no
clue what he is talking about.
It is very exhausting having to learn EVERYTHING in order to make a few
pots. Often my husband says, "just pay someone". So now I will rant a
little more...
I contacted a contractor about adding an addition onto our basement for me
to use as workspace. We are looking for someone to do the concrete and help
us get it under roof as quickly as possible. We WERE (another long story )
going to finish the rest. We setup a time for him to come at 5:30, and then
he asks me (after I make it clear that the addition is MY studio) "what time
does your husband get home?" I say, "I am not sure if it is his late or
early day, but it doesn't matter, you will be dealing with me only." And he
says, "Don't you think he should be there to help you discuss this?"
WHOA NELLIE, I am gonna explode!!! That happened yesterday. So my point is
this, I am sure that there are many of us out there who want to learn these
things like welding. How the heck did my brother learn but not me? So
Kelly, I am thinking we need to pool out resources. I think it is high time
you and I learn how to weld. Or whatever is at the top of our to do list.
I am thinking that maybe we can get something going online. If you want to
drive to central Missouri, we can weld for free and have a baby sitter to
boot at my dad's truck equipment store. And guess who is going to teach us?
Yep the brother, welcome to Scott University.
One more rant, I want child friendly workshops to attend, like La Leche
League conferences. Now that would make my day, sling wearing welding
mamas.
Sincerely,
Nikki Simmons
nsimmons@mid-mo.net
Isao & Don on tue 19 jun 01
At 05:19 6/19/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Kelly: What motivated the VENT? Truly truly I
>think women in this country, certainly (I can't speak
>for the rest of the world), of a certain generation
>dealt with a lot of stereotypical caa-caa as to what
>our roles in life would be. But every now and again
>one or more of us managed to break out of the mold and
>learn useful things. Like how to maintain a car (by my
>father) or how to weld (at my Navajo community
>college) or how to build a house (by my ex-husband),
>and we should be examples for the rest of the people
>out there that 'it can be done.' It's also good to
>know how to cook a good meal (also learned some of
>this from my ex-husband, as well as an ex-boyfriend,
>both better cooks than me) and how to sew (make money
>by making your own clothing designs-one way to make it
>thru college) and maintain the body (all my friends
>who never raised children and so don't know symptoms
>or how to treat maladies - from experience). Best of
>all, it's best to be an example to your children and
>show them that the stereotypical lifestyle needs
>reexamination...NEZ
>
> Dear NEZ, The "stereotypical lifestyle" may describe the women
of the useless upper-class of the past,(and perhaps of the present) it does
ot describe my grandmother,my mother, my partner and,litterally millions of
women throughout the earth that continue to be the mainstay of their
families as well as the mechanics. It is nonsense to degrade the vast
majority in the name of W.L.
It is useful to recall that the majority of women were
agriculturalists and did not live in cities until very recent times. It is
true that much of the denigration of females has a religious base which, in
itself is a part of the power structure. We run the danger of making a
great mistake by selecting-out those parts of history,(Victorian,etal)
which satisfy yearnings for power in modern Western/European, society.
>
> Don & Isao
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
>http://buzz.yahoo.com/
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM on tue 19 jun 01
Kathleen Nez asks:
>Dear Kelly: What motivated the VENT?
It's a list in my notebook of things I have to ask (or worse, pay) somebody to do for me, both for studio and household. I need to rewire an old kiln, weld together a rebar cage for bonfiring, make a bumper jack extruder, convert a dead kiln to propane, turn a warped metal wheelhead, take slides of my work, and put a sink and drain in my glaze room, to name a few.
Like I said, "aint nobody's fault but my own" that I didn't swim upstream and demand to be taught more useful skills than my affluent white suburban college-prep school system (or liberal arts degrees) offered me. A lot of what I did manage to learn came from the "uneducated" farmer side of the family. In fact, I'd give anything to go back and get a look at the rock polisher my grandfather built (remember popular mechanics?) which ran by the power of a small windmill. It would make a great ball mill...
I don't regret the time I spent studying literature, folklore, anthropology. I have a collection of my great grandma's "farm wife" books that are more useful than my old texts, which were not especially forthcoming on how to make a fox proof henhouse.
As you point out, attitude is a major factor: I have mastered the pressure canner and a chainsaw, and can skin an elk or dissassemble a jammed shotgun and put it back together, so I look at stuff that seems daunting and remind myself of other victories. (It works for physical work, too: "I gave birth three times, how hard could this be? :0D )
So, the vent: my hindsight has made me especially aware of the pigeonholing that goes on, especially when it's the world telling my kids (esp. my daughter, not yet 3) what to want for their lives. It occurs to me in aftersight that it wasn't just about "girl stuff" and "boy stuff"... it also had to do with an assumption that we would all measure our success by wealth and social status. The old high school pals I run into at the scrap yard, body shop, lumber yard, etc., folks who have the skills I lack, didn't go to a university; some went to tech schools, others right to work. Now they are my teachers, and I'm glad to know them.
Meanwhile I have to settle for begging favors on some projects, and learning as I go -- as you did! I guess it's never too late...
Yours, Kelly
(Reminding anyone unhappy about Bush's environmental projects to go "non-electric" from 7 to 10 p.m, June 21st- unplug, turn off, make a statement about the power of conservation!)
_________________________________________________________________
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jay s. gertz on wed 20 jun 01
Folks,
I just had to put my two cents worth in here and am sincerely hoping I
do not put my foot in my mouth...I really do not believe the
pigeonholing of sexes can be validly blamed "on the system."
Individuals, locales, institutions may be different, but the person
really needs the desire to learn, to be aggressive, if necessary to
fight for the right to learn. With all the educational opportunities
currently at our command with community colleges, non-traditional
programs at colleges and universities, and independent programs, one can
remedy fairly easily the lack of educational opportunities caused by sex
discrimination in the past.
Here even in the land of Jesse Helms, we have women learning welding
through sculpture class, women building and firing wood kilns at UNC at
Asheville and women are producing beautiful, magnificent pieces of
furniture at Haywood Tech. Both these schools have many non-traditional
students (older). I have been in a carpentry curriculum that blatantly
gave women a hard time, but that was twenty years ago...and the women
that stuck it out and fought back against the redneck mentality changed
things for the future females that took this program.
The struggle against discrimination has been a difficult, difficult
battle, and with our current political climate it often seems we take
giant steps backwards...(thanks to so-called conservatives).
Keep the faith!
jakie
jay s. gertz
(jgertz@bulldog.unca.edu)
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: 19 June, 2001 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: put your daughters in shop class
> Kathleen Nez asks:
>
> >Dear Kelly: What motivated the VENT?
>
> It's a list in my notebook of things I have to ask (or worse, pay)
somebody to do for me, both for studio and household. I need to rewire
an old kiln, weld together a rebar cage for bonfiring, make a bumper
jack extruder, convert a dead kiln to propane, turn a warped metal
wheelhead, take slides of my work, and put a sink and drain in my glaze
room, to name a few.
>
> Like I said, "aint nobody's fault but my own" that I didn't swim
upstream and demand to be taught more useful skills than my affluent
white suburban college-prep school system (or liberal arts degrees)
offered me. A lot of what I did manage to learn came from the
"uneducated" farmer side of the family. In fact, I'd give anything to go
back and get a look at the rock polisher my grandfather built (remember
popular mechanics?) which ran by the power of a small windmill. It would
make a great ball mill...
>
> I don't regret the time I spent studying literature, folklore,
anthropology. I have a collection of my great grandma's "farm wife"
books that are more useful than my old texts, which were not especially
forthcoming on how to make a fox proof henhouse.
>
> As you point out, attitude is a major factor: I have mastered the
pressure canner and a chainsaw, and can skin an elk or dissassemble a
jammed shotgun and put it back together, so I look at stuff that seems
daunting and remind myself of other victories. (It works for physical
work, too: "I gave birth three times, how hard could this be? :0D )
>
> So, the vent: my hindsight has made me especially aware of the
pigeonholing that goes on, especially when it's the world telling my
kids (esp. my daughter, not yet 3) what to want for their lives. It
occurs to me in aftersight that it wasn't just about "girl stuff" and
"boy stuff"... it also had to do with an assumption that we would all
measure our success by wealth and social status. The old high school
pals I run into at the scrap yard, body shop, lumber yard, etc., folks
who have the skills I lack, didn't go to a university; some went to tech
schools, others right to work. Now they are my teachers, and I'm glad to
know them.
>
> Meanwhile I have to settle for begging favors on some projects, and
learning as I go -- as you did! I guess it's never too late...
>
> Yours, Kelly
>
> (Reminding anyone unhappy about Bush's environmental projects to go
"non-electric" from 7 to 10 p.m, June 21st- unplug, turn off, make a
statement about the power of conservation!)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> iVillage.com: Solutions for Your Life
> Check out the most exciting women's community on the Web
> http://www.ivillage.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
John Hesselberth on wed 20 jun 01
I guess I didn't realize how far at one end of the scale I was. I took Home
Ec in high school in 1956. Three of us "guys" had agreed to sign up for it.
I was the only one who didn't chicken out. Just me and 11 girls in that
class. We were divided into "kitchens" of 3. I got a B. I only lasted one
semester though. I guess the peer pressure was just too strong and I went
back to shop class where I "belonged".
A funny follow-up, though, that I didn't learn about until years later.
When I left my "kitchen" it fell apart. The teacher realized I had been
carrying than group of 3 and went back and raised my grade to an A. Mrs.
Hamlin was her name. Believe it or not she is now 107 and living in the
same nursing home as my mother (she's still young at 94). I saw them both
just last weekend.
Maybe that early experience playing in cookie dough is why I turned to clay.
Just reminiscing, John
Web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com Email: john@frogpondpottery.com
"The life so short, the craft so long to learn." Chaucer's translation of
Hippocrates, 5th cent. B.C.
will edwards on thu 21 jun 01
Hi,
I believe John got an "A" because he really is a good guy and it shows. T=
hanks
for this nice e.mail, it made my day! John - did you learn to cook or not=
? :)
William
A funny follow-up, though, that I didn't learn about until years later.
When I left my "kitchen" it fell apart. The teacher realized I had been
carrying than group of 3 and went back and raised my grade to an A. =
Jim Chandler on sat 23 jun 01
When my husband and I were first married (24 yrs ago next Tuesday!)
young and silly as we were, we said " Let's go into business! Let's
make folding screens! " and so we did. Jim taught me to use power tools
- bench saw, router, saber saw, drill - and basic construction
techniques for the screen panels, some of which actually were fairly
intricate. Boy, did I love learning that stuff, and proved a good
student if I do say so myself. We did custom folding screens for 5
years or so until it "unfolded" and I moved on from doing art on panels
to doing art on walls. I would have loved shop class. Loved it!
Biggest worry was my braid coming unpinned and flopping onto the saw
blade. Thing I'm still scared of and won't use - a Skilsaw. Yikes.
Also - I learned basic "girl" skills from my mother, but the one who
taught me that if you want to sew you have to put a knot in the thread,
and if you want to be able to put paperdoll clothes on the paperdolls
you need to cut around the little tabs - that was Daddy.
Laura
Snail Scott on sat 23 jun 01
At 06:47 AM 6/23/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Biggest worry was my braid coming unpinned and flopping onto the saw
>blade.
>Laura
>
Let me put a few words in on this!
I have always known, intellectually, the
dangers of juxtaposing hair with power
tools. The image that stays with me, though,
was a scraggly, hairy looking hank of...
something...nailed above the grinder bench
in my old college metal shop. The scalp of
a careless student. (The scalp was eventually
removed after objections from a parent on a
tour.)
I have worked around power tools for much
of my life, including several years working
in a bronze foundry. I also have hair that's
just shy of knee-length. It's been a long
time since just pony-tailing it would do a
damn bit of good. (If it's long enough to
flop over your shoulder while working, you
need find a better method. If you can't
find a better method, cut it off!)
I used to pin it up with chopsticks or a
handy paintbrush or two, which worked well
enough for fixing the car or the occasional
project. When I went to work at the foundry,
though, that rapidly proved non-viable, since
the hairpins constantly caught the straps of
my respirator when putting it on and off,
and that big knot of hair was always in the
way of the welding mask straps. Since we all
also wore bandannas on our heads to keep
the airborne gunk off, that made for just
too many things to fuss with during a work
day.
I quickly found the solution I still use: a
snood. A sturdy one made of heavy solid
fabric. It stays on, protects my hair from
airborne gunk and flying sparks, and keeps
it out of the way at the nape of my neck.
No muss, no fuss. Classy-looking, too.
Make your own snood!:
(Use natural fibers only; synthetics melt!)
Cut a strip of fabric as long as the
circumference of your head, plus an inch or
two, and about four inches wide. Sew the
ends together, and fold lengthwise. Cut a
circle of fabric about 16" in diameter.
Gather it into the band and sew. (or staple)
Voila!
(Those of you who sew often will know the
obvious fine points of construction which
I omitted from this description. Feel free
to add them. Those of you who don't know
what I mean by that, never mind, they're
not that important.)
Keep your hair out of the equipment! Please!
-Snail
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