mel jacobson on mon 2 jul 01
i went to the opening of a hamada show at the matsuya, ginza
gallery in 1972. his one man show proceeded mine. nothing
in that show was under a thousand dollars u.s. most were about
1500 to 3000. i could not afford to buy a tiny cup.
from his own mouth. `my pots are sold by my agent...
and he alone.` in his home, at his table, 1972.
no one ever talks about japanese pottery agents.
very few of the famous potters sell without an agent.
a fact. and few ever talk about the sponsors...the folks
that pay for the kilns, land, studios. these are folks that
are like investors, they start out promising potters, artists,
and take a nice percentage later in life.
many flower arranging teachers are tied to potters.
if you have 3,000 folks in your pyramid, and they all
just happen to want the same pot, from the same potter..hmmm,
nice pay day.
it is very difficult to compare societies. japan, norway, england...
then america...they are all different. there are few comparisons
in the real world of art commerce.
hamada never sold his pots in a craft fair to get started.
he worked hard to make his name...kid you not, but it was
not the same as being a potter in america.
he helped start us all. we owe that great debt. leech, hamada,
mackenzie...they all had their share. but, don't mix apples
and oranges...it does not work.
been there.
most japanese artists sell by the square inch. it is a complex
formula. let us say...you are famous, you may get 200 bucks
a square inch. a poor potter may get 50 cents a square...hmmm.
it sure makes pricing simple...use the ruler.
many do not want to hear this kind of stuff...breaks the mystique.
they tell me i am full of $%^#@. they would rather think of
hamada as a simple dirt potter...sorry folks, he had a ph.d. in
chemical engineering. why do you think he made those great
glazes? he started as a chemist at the kyoto technical institute,
working with kawai. they were glaze technicians.
it is called training...and the japanese do it very well. your
training depends on your social cast. most of the throwers
and workers in potteries come from lower class folks...great
skill, great work ethic, but, no college, no degree. they will
always be workers.
mel
been there. seen it a great deal.
i got to have shows, was treated like a king in japan...i had
a masters degree, was a professional teacher and a potter
and painter. all the right stuff.
does not mean squat in the old u.s.a.
money talks here.
my greatest gift from mr. uchida was the inside view of
things that he showed me. he was not unique...he was
a famous kyoto potter, not part of the `farmer art` movement,
as he called it. there are thousands of hand potters in kyoto....
and few follow the hamada legacy. they all travel in their own
circle. in some ways, hamada was considered and outcast in
kyoto, he sold pots internationally...two potters told me that
to be considered great, you must keep your pots internal, meaning
sold only in japan. just a thought. it is a different world.
mashiko is not tokyo, is not kyoto, is not rural kyushu. they all have
their own folkways...and they are tight as stainless steel.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Michael Sowers on mon 2 jul 01
Thanks Mel for the insight. I would like to see more information on agents,
how they work and how you get one in this country if there is such a thing.
It is unfortunate that in the USA there is so little regard and respect for
potters. Our country has no pottery tradition, being in its infancy when the
industrial revolution hit, there were no centers for pottery with traditions
and schools of thought but instead great industrial centers based entirely
on capitalism. The sad fact is if it wasn't for bowling and fast food we
wouldn't have any culture, ours is a transitory society with little regard
for the individual. Values here seem to be given to us via advertising and
no great effort will be applied to promoting something by people who cannot
make a profit from it.
When I began building my current studio my next-door neighbor asked in all
honesty and sincerity why anyone would buy my pottery when they could go to
Pier 1 (a chain of stores selling cheap imports for those who live
elsewhere) and buy pottery for less. How do you sell to that market? You
can't. I give them a cup and hope that through using it they will feel that
"intangible" something and come to respect the intrinsic value rather than
the monetary one. I have had a few converts but not many doing this.
The difference in American society versus European became clear to me during
stay in Germany in the mid "70s. I saw shops that had been family owned
since the 1500's, in this country if you leave town for six months you might
not be able to find your way around when you come back. Streets will be
changed/added, buildings built and destroyed, and landmarks missing.
Quality and craftsmanship mean little, if it doesn't have a popular name
brand seen on TV and print advertising it is dismissed as being
inconsequential and inferior. If it were any good surely they would have
seen something on TV about it, right? When kids in New York City think milk
comes from a factory like Coca Cola we have a problem and it is this
disassociation and unreality that in my opinion is the basis of a lot of our
social ills. As artist/craftsman we are swimming upstream against a very
hard current.
Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-american it is just in this regard we are
at somewhat of a disadvantage compared to a lot of other cultures. The same
holds true for teaching, a highly respected profession in a lot of cultures.
Here we are taught from childhood that "those that can do and those who
can't teach", I know I am not the only one who heard that as a child.
Hopefully there will be a social shift swinging back from the
de-humanization to the point where evidence of the human hand is not seen as
a defect.
Classic Lines Pottery
Michael Sowers
Email: mike@classiclinespottery.com
Web: www.classiclinespottery.com/
John Baymore on tue 3 jul 01
Way to go , mel....you old myth buster, you!!
from his own mouth. `my pots are sold by my agent...
and he alone.` in his home, at his table, 1972.
no one ever talks about japanese pottery agents.
very few of the famous potters sell without an agent.
a fact. and few ever talk about the sponsors...the folks
that pay for the kilns, land, studios. these are folks that
are like investors, they start out promising potters, artists,
and take a nice percentage later in life.
many flower arranging teachers are tied to potters.
if you have 3,000 folks in your pyramid, and they all
just happen to want the same pot, from the same potter..hmmm,
nice pay day.
The system revealed . (Sounds like a tabloid headline .) =
The iemoto concept, the tight business conglomerates, and the sponsors in=
Japan are an offshoot of their vertical society. It's about
heirarchy...... connections and relationships rule. Normal there......
kinda' alien to those in the USA.
many do not want to hear this kind of stuff...breaks the mystique.
they tell me i am full of $%^#@. they would rather think of
hamada as a simple dirt potter...sorry folks, he had a ph.d. in
chemical engineering..
Nope....you're certainly not full of .............. whatever . From m=
y
very brief experience in Japan when compared to yours.... it was QUICKLY
clear that pottery is VERY much about business in Japan. Yes..... some
there certainly make some wonderful pots.... but for most, along with
making nice pots running a business is right "up there" with worrying abo=
ut
kilns and glazes.
When it came to selling and Yen...... the dark three piece suit went on
.
I talked to one potter while in Japan who, wanting to kick his life as a
salaryman (corporate business person) and do something he enjoyed, starte=
d
in handcraft pottery because he knew it was a good way to make some decen=
t
money!!!! Now there's a concept that's a "different think" for those of =
us
in the USA .
Thanks also for the first hand 1972 pricing info........ if you say that =
at
that time "most" of the pots were priced in the $1500 to $3000 USD
range....... that would make the general run of pots (mid range) about th=
e
cost of a new compact car in the US (back then)...... which is quite a bi=
t
of bucks adjusted to todays car's dollar value . So at that point hi=
s
work was still priced lower than my understanding was..... which might b=
e
more related to the pricing nearer to his January 78 death.... or it mig=
ht
be a misunderstanding of his prices back then all together.
I'd still take the price of a small Ford or Chevy for one of my vases if
anyone wants to send it along. I'll include free shipping .
So how do we get the MLM pyramid thing going here in the USA for us
potters? .
So... let's see..... if all of us who teach, or do workshops, or have
apprentices get a little bit from each of them when they sell......... an=
d
they willingly give it because they feel that it is owed in respect for
what was done for them..... and......... then......... hum........ =
Oops........ I woke up .
Seriously...... it simply IS a very different culture. It's not "oranges=
and apples" it is more like oranges and laser printers .
Great post.
Best,
.............................john
PS: ...... now....back to that bit about what you are full of............=
.
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 17-26,
2001"
Lee Love on tue 3 jul 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:03 AM
Subject: hamada/ prices
> i went to the opening of a hamada show at the matsuya, ginza
> gallery in 1972. his one man show proceeded mine. nothing
> in that show was under a thousand dollars u.s. most were about
> 1500 to 3000. i could not afford to buy a tiny cup.
Thank you Mel for sharing your experience. This was my understanding of
Hamada prices when he was alive.
Yesterday, I asked my Sempai if he knew what Hamada's prices were when
Hamada was alive. He is 25 and will finish his 5 year apprenticeship shortly
after I finish my 2 years. He speaks a little English. He didn't know what
the prices were. He asked Fukiyan, the 76 year old "retired" Forman, who
started his career with Hamada at the age of 14. Basically, Fukiyan and
Mitsuyan (the current Forman who has worked with Shimaoka since he was 14) said,
"Heck if I know." What Fukiyan did say, was that shortly after Hamada Sensei
died, his yunomi shot up to 14 Mon. At '78 exchange rate, about 5 or 6 hundred
dollars. He also said that when he worked for Hamada, he was paid 100 yen for
a whole years work (about 80cents at today's exchange rate.) But he said, back
in the '30s, that was a large amount of money.
When I ask questions at the workshop, I often don't get answers to the
question I ask, but learn about other related things.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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Patricia & John Richmond on tue 10 jul 01
In 1978 I purchased a tea bowl with a temoku glaze: $1200.00 at the Ginza.
--
Patricia & John Richmond
jrichmond4@cfl.rr.com
Port Orange, Florida 32129
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