Earl Brunner on tue 17 jul 01
Are they sticking because they are tight or because the clay gets sticky
at high temp.?
If the later, you can eleviate the problem by waxing the seat with wax
that has some alumina hydrate mixed into it. Finish off the seat after
firing by applying some valve grinding compound to the seat and
"grinding" the lid back and forth until smooth.
Daniel Dermer wrote:
> I've been using B-MIX c10 for about 6 months now. I
> also dry mugs and teapots under plastic grocery bags
> for 2-3 days ...slowly... to even out the attached
> parts, then in the open air until bone dry. Haven't
> had any problems with this method.
>
> However, I have a terrible time getting teapot lids
> unstuck after glaze firings. Of the last 6 made, not
> one has come unstuck with normal tapping and coaxing.
>
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Erin Hayes on tue 17 jul 01
Hi All!
Some of my second-quarter throwers use B-mix, and I make fund-raiser pots
from it because it throws well and thin. However, Yakima is extremely arid
and we have to take great care to protect B-Mix pots. We use a damp cabinet
and sometimes have to loosely cover them even then.
We tend to see warping and cracking of handles, mostly. My students tend to
have more of this at first than I usually see, so I attribute it more to
being more familiar to the drying process and the eccentricities of the clay
body than anything else.
It's also a little tricky for the students when they're first beginning to
experiment with trimming B-mix after their stoneware. The B-mix feel a
little different when it's ready to be trimmed, so there's some adjustment
there too.
I'll be signing off for a month - gotta help my mom through some surgery so
it's off to Texas! Have a good August and I'll see you all in September.
Erin. (Already missing the cool evenings in Central Washington.)
bivaletz ginny on tue 17 jul 01
daniel, what a great tip that sounds like. my friends
us use b-mix ^10 also occasionally have stuck lids so
i'll pass it on.
on thing i find helpful in slowing down
drying when i need to is covering my ware first with a
light piece of cloth ( i use old pillow cases and
sheets, cut up) and then plastic. it seems to even
out the drying and avoids condensation drips. i can
always mist that material to prolong drying even more
without having to spray the clay directly . works
real well
--- Daniel Dermer wrote:
> I've been using B-MIX c10 for about 6 months now. I
> also dry mugs and teapots under plastic grocery bags
> for 2-3 days ...slowly... to even out the attached
> parts, then in the open air until bone dry. Haven't
> had any problems with this method.
>
> However, I have a terrible time getting teapot lids
> unstuck after glaze firings. Of the last 6 made,
> not
> one has come unstuck with normal tapping and
> coaxing.
>
> Anyone else have this problem with B-MIX lids?
>
> (p.s. I use the freezer method to get lids
> unstuck...
> fill the teapot 1/4 full with tap water. place in
> freezer until water freezes. remove teapot and pour
> warm water on outside, plus a little inside. when
> the
> ice inside melts away from the side, shake the
> teapot
> vigorously. The ice inside will break-up and impact
> the teapot lid from the inside, forcing the lid
> off.)
>
> (p.p.s. thanks to whoever thought of this - found
> the
> tip somewhere on Clayart, I think.)
>
> ---
=====
ginny from orcas island, washington.
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dan mickey on tue 17 jul 01
I used bmix for a long time, I also work in the soft stage of the drying
process, i think this is the key to bmix, it is a clay that is great to
throw, but likes to warp and likes to go together kinda wetish.
I never had anyproblems with bmix lids sticking. I used it solely for
woodfiring and my teapots, jars, etc. all went in without wads seperating
the lid from the body ( i got tired of grinding them off, os i tried one
without, worked! i make a low seat for the lid.)
I will say this, in anagama kilns bmix is one of the most beautiful clays i
have ever seen.
shane mickey
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Autumn Downey on tue 17 jul 01
Try using Lana Wilson's magic water for attaching your handles -
It is:
1 gal water
3 tbsp sodium silicate
1.5 tsp soda ash
or simpler yet a couple of tsps of TSP (trisodium phosphate, the stuff you
wash walls with before painting) in a cup of water.
I wouldn't use slip from this clay as I think it expands then shrinks alot
and causes handles to fall off - even repel!!!
Haven't really used B-mix myself but had this problem with another
fine-grained white stoneware.
CRaig Martel's suggestion to add handles at earliest opportunity should
help, too.
Autumn Downey
Yellowknife, NWT
Libby Still-Hanline on tue 17 jul 01
Well I have about had it with B-Mix but I thought I
would give it one more try, because I absolutly love
throwing with this clay. The trouble comes when I want
to attach a handle or a lug. They all look fine when I
head off to bed but in the morning I find the
attchments cracking off the pot or have completely
seperated from it. I know that Steven Hill uses B-mix
and attaches thoses wonderful gracful handles, I must
be doing someting wrong or maybe there is a trick that
I don't know about yet.
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bivaletz ginny on tue 17 jul 01
libby, i used to use b-mix and folks at a nearby
studio still do and love it. i used to cover my mugs
with a damp cloth followed by dry cleaners plastic for
a few days after attaching the handles and did not
have a problem. well, i will admit that once or twice
i had a few handles pop off or show a crack if i tried
to smooth the handle into the clay body, but that
usually happened when i tried to speed up the drying
or if my there was a big difference in the dryness of
the mug and the handle.
my biggest problem with b-mix is that it was almost
always on the hard side. in fact, i often have that
problem with most clays from laguna.
=====
ginny from orcas island, washington.
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Daniel Dermer on tue 17 jul 01
I've been using B-MIX c10 for about 6 months now. I
also dry mugs and teapots under plastic grocery bags
for 2-3 days ...slowly... to even out the attached
parts, then in the open air until bone dry. Haven't
had any problems with this method.
However, I have a terrible time getting teapot lids
unstuck after glaze firings. Of the last 6 made, not
one has come unstuck with normal tapping and coaxing.
Anyone else have this problem with B-MIX lids?
(p.s. I use the freezer method to get lids unstuck...
fill the teapot 1/4 full with tap water. place in
freezer until water freezes. remove teapot and pour
warm water on outside, plus a little inside. when the
ice inside melts away from the side, shake the teapot
vigorously. The ice inside will break-up and impact
the teapot lid from the inside, forcing the lid off.)
(p.p.s. thanks to whoever thought of this - found the
tip somewhere on Clayart, I think.)
--- bivaletz ginny wrote:
> libby, i used to use b-mix and folks at a nearby
> studio still do and love it. i used to cover my
> mugs
> with a damp cloth followed by dry cleaners plastic
> for
> a few days after attaching the handles and did not
> have a problem. well, i will admit that once or
> twice
> i had a few handles pop off or show a crack if i
> tried
> to smooth the handle into the clay body, but that
> usually happened when i tried to speed up the drying
> or if my there was a big difference in the dryness
> of
> the mug and the handle.
>
> my biggest problem with b-mix is that it was almost
> always on the hard side. in fact, i often have that
> problem with most clays from laguna.
>
> =====
> ginny from orcas island, washington.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> You may look at the archives for the list or change
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Craig Martell on tue 17 jul 01
Hi:
Before I start offering any advice about b mix I should probably say that I
haven't thrown any for about 8 years. I make my own clay but I'll try
commercial stuff once in a while for the sake of learning and
comparison. B mix throws very well but it's incredibly sticky and over
plasticized in my opinion. This can cause a high degree of shrinkage from
the plastic to bone dry state, and this would be a reason for problems with
attached handles etc.
One thing to try, if you haven't done this already is test the amount of
shrinkage from plastic to bone dry. Make a 100 mm long line on a plastic
slab of clay and let it dry. Then measure the line again. Every mm lost
represents 1% of shrinkage. My feeling is that anything over 6% shrinkage
can be problematic.
Try making the handle attachments as soon as you can handle the piece
without distortion. The closer the two parts, handle and pot, to the same
moisture content, the greater the chances of success. I use porcelain and
I've also found that you need to work the joint a bit with your thumb or
finger to mate the two pieces well and make a strong joint. I don't use
any water when I do this as the handle is usually wet enough. I pull
handle stubs, attach and work them together and then repull on the pot and
finsh. If any hairline cracks develop, you can work them out with a tiny
bit of water and a stiff bristle brush.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
Clay Grigsby on wed 18 jul 01
libby, i used b-mix for about 7 years and without to many problems except for
the last few years and started having a really bad problem with pinholes and
blistering. i called laguna several times and really did not get that much
help. ended up switching to another clay and have had no problems since. hope
you get it worked out.
Lorraine Pierce on wed 18 jul 01
Hi all of you with B-Mix problems...perhaps you would like to make up the
body yourself from this old recipe and compare it to what you buy now.
B-Mix Clay Body ^8-10 reduction
Old Hickory #5 50
EPK Kaolin 20
PV Clay 28
Talc 2
Tom Coleman mentioned, at a recent workshop, that the commercial B-mix by
Laguna is behaving differently than the old commercial B-mix body but that
Highwater's Loafer's Glory is an excellent subsitute for this old standby.
Lori Pierce in New Port Richey, Fl.
Timakia@AOL.COM on wed 18 jul 01
I also used a little bit of B-mix before, and soon learned that the handle
and the pot must have an even wetness as can be. Remember B-mix is semi
-porcelainous. My handles never fell of, but I delt with little " slip"
cracks. I would along with the other people`s advice, add the following:
Make sure that your handles don`t pull themselves off by their weight. For
instance if you make a handle like an ear, let it dry upside down, or use
some support for other types of handles.
Secondly I found paperclay a sollution to most cracks. It just helps the
bonding . Of cause it is not a nice way to use for attaching handles, but a
sollution.
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,MS
38866
http://hometown.aol.com/timakia
scott lykens on wed 18 jul 01
when i become concerned that an odd amount of lids are staying where i put
em, I like to mix a wee bit of alumina wash into my wax resist. the wax
still keeps me glaze free where i need it, the lid pops right offf after the
firing, and using the wax as a vehicle to carry alumina keeps the alumina
from dusting into my glazes. I got this idea when making salt fired lidded
forms. also, no wadding in salt /soda kiln and no more warped lids. When
using this trick on white wares, it adds a little halo of white highlight
that may enhance your lines around the mouth, this can be scrubbed off or
left or if your one of those crazy folks you gotta have perfect fitting
lids, you wont notice the halo by the time you get done using your valve
compound. :)
I also had this attachment problem but with a different clay, a personnal
recipe for highly plastic vitrified earthenware, which was solved by
trimming closer to wet and attaching moments later. There was an adjustment
of getting use to attaching wet handles to clay that is still elastic, but
the attachment problem was solved, and i was fortunate enough to have clay
teach me another lesson about patience and ego. Clay can be so humbling
that way, just when you think you know it all, something changes and you
want to blame everything and anything, and hte reality is, its you. So I
got my plastic out and started treating my pots more like children and less
like commodity and surprise, i saw what they wanted and was able to give
more freely. Not only did my attachments problems disolve, but i solved
some other ones too.
Sct
>
> >
> > Anyone else have this problem with B-MIX lids?
> >
> > >
> > ---
>
>=====
>>______________________________________________________________________________
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>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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W. Mosher on wed 18 jul 01
Greetings,
Neat solution with the wax and whatnot. Would other material
suspended in the wax do as well?
I've been following this thread for a bit, and I was wondering, since I
am a bit of an amateur, why would you fire pots with the lids in, if
they are glazed? Do they deform to a better size when high fired? I
suppose you don't have problems with glaze slipping down into the
crevice between lid and pot?
Thanks all,
-W. Mosher
On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:58:25 -0400 scott lykens
writes:
> when i become concerned that an odd amount of lids are staying where
> i put em, I like to mix a wee bit of alumina wash into my wax resist.
the
> wax still keeps me glaze free where i need it, the lid pops right offf
> after the firing, and using the wax as a vehicle to carry alumina keeps
the
> alumina from dusting into my glazes. I got this idea when making salt
fired
> lidded forms. also, no wadding in salt /soda kiln and no more warped
lids.
> When using this trick on white wares, it adds a little halo of white
> highlight that may enhance your lines around the mouth, this can be
scrubbed
> off or left or if your one of those crazy folks you gotta have perfect
> fitting lids, you wont notice the halo by the time you get done using
your
> valve compound. :)
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Chris Clarke on wed 18 jul 01
I have never had this problem, I live in southern california where it gets
to 105 some days and I don't slow the drying on anything but the biggest
pieces. But, I do work rather wet for some tastes. Maybe that's the key.
chris
temecula, california
chris@ccpots.com
www.ccpots.com
gregg lindsley on wed 18 jul 01
ok
I have been reading all the posts up to this one
backwards to forwards, as i am a b mix user, cone 5,
because it is white and i love bright glazes and
designs. I am so grateful to all of you for
discussing this. I have been experiences some
blistering, which started when gerstly borate ran out,
so i thought it was that, but in my experimenting with
alternatives, and with glazes without gb subs, the
problem persists. I agree that the clay comes out of
the box way too dry, but i am too forgiving a person
and assumed it sat around in warehouses too long. I
recently purchased a pug mill, so dry clay out of the
box is no longer a problem.
As for handles, mine always pull away from the
pot with b mix, and i try to use as wet a clay as
possible for the handles and try to put them on as
soon as possible. They still pull out. I accept this
and simply work with this. I take my sponge and wet
the areas that have pulled away. Taking my finger, I
smooth the crack back in place, good as new. sometines
this takes two tries, and even if there is a small
crack at the bone dry stage, i simply take my finger
and burnish it. Stays put, handles never come off.
Recently i have noticed that the bottoms of some pots
made with b mix develop small cracks! Not on the
inside from too much water, but after i trim and sign!
I have been saying to myself, HUH?
That's wierd.
Also, as for contacting Laguna, if you're not
talking to Jon Pacini, you're talking to the wrong
person. Jon is personable and helpful. Be sure to ask
for him by name.
So. Time to think about b mix.
Thanks everyone
Gregg Allen LIndsley
Earth and Fire Pottery
10325 Brookside Drive
Whispering Pines, Ca 95426
--- Clay Grigsby wrote:
> libby, i used b-mix for about 7 years and without to
> many problems except for
> the last few years and started having a really bad
> problem with pinholes and
> blistering. i called laguna several times and really
> did not get that much
> help. ended up switching to another clay and have
> had no problems since. hope
> you get it worked out.
>
>
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Jon Pacini on mon 6 aug 01
Hi Lori--greetings all---
Recently you published an "old formula" for B-mix on the Clayart list.
The formula that you put forward only has one ingredient in common with our
B-mix body. I am curious as to the origin of your "B-mix" formula and how
you were able to verify the "old" part of your statement. Could you please
forward to me any info that would shed light on this subject?
The name "B-mix" is derived from the name of the man that developed the
body. It was not his name for the clay, but rather a name that Laguna
attached to it. Laguna has produced B-mix since 1985, it has not been
altered in composition since that time.
In 1991 we purchased new pugmill facilities, but I'm not sure if or
how, that could affect the behavior of the body.
Though I have great respect for Tom Coleman as a Craftsman, his
mentioning that B-mix behaves differently nowadays must be taken with a
grain of salt. Please keep in mind that he is a paid spokesman for our
direct competition and is therefore obliged to promote their clay at our
expense.
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Earl Brunner on tue 7 aug 01
You know Jon, you are a paid spokesman for Laguna. I appreciate your
partial apology to Tom Coleman and I'm sure he does as well...,
"Greetings all---I would like to apologize to Tom Coleman regarding my
statement that he is in the employ of our direct competition. During a
pleasant conversation with him this morning he has assured me that he is
not.
But you don't have ANYTHING to say about the problems people are
having/have had, with
B-Mix. Shoot it's not just Tom's opinion, he doesn't have to validate
anyone else.
Anybody else out there have problems with B-Mix? Jon would apparently
like to hear from you.
Jon Pacini wrote:
> Hi Lori--greetings all---
>
> Though I have great respect for Tom Coleman as a Craftsman, his
> mentioning that B-mix behaves differently nowadays must be taken with a
> grain of salt. Please keep in mind that he is a paid spokesman for our
> direct competition and is therefore obliged to promote their clay at our
> expense.
>
> Jon Pacini
> Clay Manager
> Laguna Clay Co
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on wed 8 aug 01
You don't NEED anything else Antoinette, You answered your own question.
Anyone or a combination of the things you listed will do it.
Timakia@AOL.COM wrote:
> Well I just bought a 1000lb of ^10 b-mix and will start working with it in a
> while.
> What can go wrong with a recipe that was previously proved to be good?
>>From previous experience I know that the composition of ingredients can
> change from mining area to mining area. I also know that bad management can
> make workers mix up batches incorrectly. What else?
>
> Antoinette Badenhorst
> PO Box 552
> Saltillo,MS
> 38866
> http://hometown.aol.com/timakia
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on wed 8 aug 01
Sure, I knew that. And I really like this post, you presented your
position very well and said some things that some people probably needed
to hear.
The only thing I would add is that if you have read this list much, and
if you understand the chemistry of clay and glazes, You could really
help potters in their efforts to match and fit glaze to clay if you
would provide molecular formula for your clays. (and I mean all
manufactures not just you) Most of us would be happy with a RO unity
formula for a claybody. It would really help. If you have fiddled with
glaze calculation, you know that giving out a RO unity formula is not
the same as giving out a recipe.
Jon Pacini wrote:
> Hi Earl ---Greetings all----Yes Earl, I am an employee of Laguna Clay.
> Though my position is not paid spokesman, my job is Clay Manager and my
> posts are all signed as such.
> The issue I had with Lori's post was that I thought it inferred Tom's
> B-mix formula is some how the predecessor to Laguna's or related to it,
> which it is not, and has virtually nothing in common with it. In reading a
> typed posting you can often misinterpret what was intended. In a follow-up
> e-mail to Lori, I hope I conveyed that.
> In talking with Tom yesterday, some assumptions I had made regarding his
> involvement with various manufacturers was clarified, as was his position on
> Laguna's B-mix. As usual, when you make assumptions, you can get buried.
> I have tremendous respect for Tom's craftsmanship and my post stated as
> much, the path he has chosen is a valid one and he doesn't need me to
> confirm it.
>
> Earl, I field all calls regarding difficulties potters are having with
> Laguna's clays or just difficulties they are having in general. The reason I
> am here at Laguna is because I have been a potter for going on 30 yrs and
> have made it my life's work to understand clay bodies, how they work and
> why, and to help fellow potters along the road to improving our craft.
> I'm sure there are potters who have trouble with B-mix, somebody is
> always having trouble with something. I certainly am not making light of it,
> that's just the facts. There are literally thousands of potters out there
> using Laguna Clays some are successful some are not.
> In 30 years you'd think I'd have seen every problem imaginable, but new
> ones inevitably crop up. I look at pots, I discuss techniques and help with
> any adjustments that need to be made.
> I don't think I can solve every problem every time, I have no allusions
> that I am the be all to end all, I have come by my knowledge of our craft
> from the giants that came before me. I stand on their shoulders.
>
> When you produce hundreds of batches of clay and glaze everyday your
> firsts-rate has to be allot better than 99%. As a human being you know
> you're never going to be perfect, but you hope all the quality checks that
> have been developed will at least keep the marginal stuff from leaving the
> warehouse.
> Considering Laguna's production level, I receive fewer problem calls
> here than with any other company I have worked for. Could it be improved?
> There isn't a system devised that cannot be improved.
> Logs are kept through every stage of production. With every batch of
> clay a tile is made that is tested for warpage, shrinkage, absorption and
> color. If I had the time and man power I would use the Dilatometer, Gradient
> furnace, do an X-ray diffraction analysis and modulus of rupture as well. I
> have the equipment here and I know how to use it. When I have to trouble
> shoot, I do use it. Hell Earl, if I had the time and a big enough Kiln, I'd
> throw pots out of every batch of clay. There just aren't enough hours in the
> day to test every batch of clay under every possible circumstance that it
> can be used.
>
> It's Laguna's business to provide materials and support to those in the
> ceramics community. Potters were out there long before there was a Laguna
> Clay, potters made Laguna possible. It did not materialize out of thin air.
> We know it, we do our best.
>
> Jon Pacini
> Clay Manager
> Laguna Clay Co
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Jeremy McLeod on wed 8 aug 01
And, from one who's not a paid representative for anyone having to do with B-Mix,
while I enjoy using it (when I can get it ... since Laguna absconded from Denver)
it's been frustratingly inconsistent for a year or more - sometimes having horrible
problems with s-cracks and sometimes not, and this with several different potters
and styles.
Jeremy McLeod
Timakia@AOL.COM on wed 8 aug 01
Well I just bought a 1000lb of ^10 b-mix and will start working with it in a
while.
What can go wrong with a recipe that was previously proved to be good?
>From previous experience I know that the composition of ingredients can
change from mining area to mining area. I also know that bad management can
make workers mix up batches incorrectly. What else? If you talk about
s-cracks and difficulty with attachments, it sounds as if the clay is too
short(not plastic enough), but then, when one throw with it(which I have not
done in 2 years), it fells good under the hands.
Just wondering.
Antoinette.
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,MS
38866
http://hometown.aol.com/timakia
Jon Pacini on wed 8 aug 01
Hi Earl ---Greetings all----Yes Earl, I am an employee of Laguna Clay.
Though my position is not paid spokesman, my job is Clay Manager and my
posts are all signed as such.
The issue I had with Lori's post was that I thought it inferred Tom's
B-mix formula is some how the predecessor to Laguna's or related to it,
which it is not, and has virtually nothing in common with it. In reading a
typed posting you can often misinterpret what was intended. In a follow-up
e-mail to Lori, I hope I conveyed that.
In talking with Tom yesterday, some assumptions I had made regarding his
involvement with various manufacturers was clarified, as was his position on
Laguna's B-mix. As usual, when you make assumptions, you can get buried.
I have tremendous respect for Tom's craftsmanship and my post stated as
much, the path he has chosen is a valid one and he doesn't need me to
confirm it.
Earl, I field all calls regarding difficulties potters are having with
Laguna's clays or just difficulties they are having in general. The reason I
am here at Laguna is because I have been a potter for going on 30 yrs and
have made it my life's work to understand clay bodies, how they work and
why, and to help fellow potters along the road to improving our craft.
I'm sure there are potters who have trouble with B-mix, somebody is
always having trouble with something. I certainly am not making light of it,
that's just the facts. There are literally thousands of potters out there
using Laguna Clays some are successful some are not.
In 30 years you'd think I'd have seen every problem imaginable, but new
ones inevitably crop up. I look at pots, I discuss techniques and help with
any adjustments that need to be made.
I don't think I can solve every problem every time, I have no allusions
that I am the be all to end all, I have come by my knowledge of our craft
from the giants that came before me. I stand on their shoulders.
When you produce hundreds of batches of clay and glaze everyday your
firsts-rate has to be allot better than 99%. As a human being you know
you're never going to be perfect, but you hope all the quality checks that
have been developed will at least keep the marginal stuff from leaving the
warehouse.
Considering Laguna's production level, I receive fewer problem calls
here than with any other company I have worked for. Could it be improved?
There isn't a system devised that cannot be improved.
Logs are kept through every stage of production. With every batch of
clay a tile is made that is tested for warpage, shrinkage, absorption and
color. If I had the time and man power I would use the Dilatometer, Gradient
furnace, do an X-ray diffraction analysis and modulus of rupture as well. I
have the equipment here and I know how to use it. When I have to trouble
shoot, I do use it. Hell Earl, if I had the time and a big enough Kiln, I'd
throw pots out of every batch of clay. There just aren't enough hours in the
day to test every batch of clay under every possible circumstance that it
can be used.
It's Laguna's business to provide materials and support to those in the
ceramics community. Potters were out there long before there was a Laguna
Clay, potters made Laguna possible. It did not materialize out of thin air.
We know it, we do our best.
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Ron & Nancy on wed 8 aug 01
Jon,
Earl Brunner hit a nerve with me, as i usually don't get involved
with disputes on line. I leave that to those who enjoy the good debate.
But I hope this information is helpful and beneficial in making a change
in the clay. I quit ordering B-Mix over two years ago, because it wasn't
the clay it once was.
Respectfully
Nancy Hamilton-Hughes
Lori Lynn & Rob on wed 8 aug 01
We too stopped using b-mix about 2 years ago. too many cracks were
developing when we had not changed any of our production methods.
Lori Lynn
Tim Lynch on thu 9 aug 01
Ginny: have you tried Clay Art's Takamori? It is a Grolleg/Tile 6 combo
that they advertise on their website as great for sculpting but I find it
throws well also. It's a tad bit more expensive than the Laguna clays but
worth it, IMHO.
Regards;
Tim
--
Tim Lynch
The Clay Man
1117 Tedford St SE
East Wenatchee, WA 98802
hifired@earthlink.net
> since it seems to be a good time to communicate
> about laguna clay, i will say that i have stopped
> using b-mix, and am currently experimenting with other
> clays to replace laguna white. my problem is that
> both these clays, no matter what batch #, are
> consistently too hard for comfortable wedging or
> throwing anything but the smallest forms.
> i know the many ways to soften it up, but i would
> rather have it a bit on the wet side to start with. i
> get my clay through clay art center and have tried
> many different brands. laguna is the only one that
> comes too dry. great for slab rolling - too hard for
> my extruder or wrists. thanks for listening to the feedback.
>
> =====
> ginny from orcas island, washington.
>
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L. P. Skeen on thu 9 aug 01
> Ginny Bivaletz, this is so amazing.. . I've been using Laguna
> B-mix for about ten years now, and my complaint is that about
> every third shipment is too SOFT!
Aha! Now you see the root of the problem: Inconsistency from batch to
batch. This is what folks have been complaining about, apparently to no
avail. :(
L
GORMO1@AOL.COM on thu 9 aug 01
it seems to be a pebble in everyone shoe about B-mix the best
way to get it out and too move on stop using it! but some people
will always pebble in their shoe because they nailed the retread
to their feet and they just can't get the damn thing out!!
i was given some clay from down under called southern ice
it's a porcelain clay all i can say now it throws well,i have not
fired any of it! Has anybody?
jim gorman
bivaletz ginny on thu 9 aug 01
since it seems to be a good time to communicate
about laguna clay, i will say that i have stopped
using b-mix, and am currently experimenting with other
clays to replace laguna white. my problem is that
both these clays, no matter what batch #, are
consistently too hard for comfortable wedging or
throwing anything but the smallest forms.
i know the many ways to soften it up, but i would
rather have it a bit on the wet side to start with. i
get my clay through clay art center and have tried
many different brands. laguna is the only one that
comes too dry. great for slab rolling - too hard for
my extruder or wrists. thanks for listening to the feedback.
=====
ginny from orcas island, washington.
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Pat Colyar on thu 9 aug 01
Ginny Bivaletz, this is so amazing.. . I've been using Laguna
B-mix for about ten years now, and my complaint is that about
every third shipment is too SOFT! Let's hear it for the Three
Bears! If you've got any of that hard stuff left, bring it over
here.
Pat Colyar, in 85 degrees F Gold Bar, WA....(with the rest of
the country way hotter, I'm ashamed to say that I'm suffering in
the heat)
Ron Roy on fri 10 aug 01
It's the law - every MSDS has to have an analysis - if you have an analysis
you can calculate the molecular formula.
RR
>Sure, I knew that. And I really like this post, you presented your
>position very well and said some things that some people probably needed
>to hear.
>
>The only thing I would add is that if you have read this list much, and
>if you understand the chemistry of clay and glazes, You could really
>help potters in their efforts to match and fit glaze to clay if you
>would provide molecular formula for your clays. (and I mean all
>manufactures not just you) Most of us would be happy with a RO unity
>formula for a claybody. It would really help. If you have fiddled with
>glaze calculation, you know that giving out a RO unity formula is not
>the same as giving out a recipe.
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
Jon Pacini on sat 11 aug 01
Hi LP ----greetings all------
As for making B-mix too soft or too hard I think I've addressed the
issue as to how the clay is made and the QA system that we use.
We make soft or firm clay on a special order basis for potters all the
time (2000lb. batch). What I like to do is have a potter send in some clay
that's the correct consistency and I do a pentrometer reading on it. For
those of you who don't know what a pentrometer is, it's a commercially
produced device that measures firmness. Once we get that potter dialed in,
we rarely botch it up.
I think that the consistency issue can be attributed more to age than to
clay being made inconsistently. I have one fork lift driver that all he does
is rotate our stock. But the older a clay gets, there's no doubt, the firmer
it gets.
There were a couple of potters that posted yesterday ---one stating the
clay is too hard, one too soft, the latter saying "let's get together and
trade clay". Not to sound trite, but, It wouldn't surprise me if the two
potters clay was the same consistency. Everybody has their own Idea what
firm and soft is. I'm old school, I throw firm clay with little water, other
potters I know throw with tooth paste. I don't know how they do it.
Lastly --- If you are interested in knowing the who how what and when
of any batch of clay, we put a 5 digit number on every box of clay that
Identifies it and it can be tracked.
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:01:15 -0400
From: "L. P. Skeen"
Subject: Re: B-Mix users
> Ginny Bivaletz, this is so amazing.. . I've been using Laguna
> B-mix for about ten years now, and my complaint is that about
> every third shipment is too SOFT!
Aha! Now you see the root of the problem: Inconsistency from batch to
batch. This is what folks have been complaining about, apparently to no
avail. :(
L
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
Earl Brunner on sat 11 aug 01
And I had forgotten that that might apply to clay. So, if that is the
case, then what was all that whining about a couple of weeks ago about
the clay companies not giving out recipes? The reasons for wanting the
recipes in the first place seemed to be (on the surface) so that studio
potters could better match clay to glaze and make various knowledgeable
decisions.
Ron Roy wrote:
> It's the law - every MSDS has to have an analysis - if you have an analysis
> you can calculate the molecular formula.
>
> RR
>
>
>
>> Sure, I knew that. And I really like this post, you presented your
>> position very well and said some things that some people probably needed
>> to hear.
>>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
bivaletz ginny on sat 11 aug 01
hi tim -
i have not tried takamori and i'm guessing it might
be a ^6 clay. i am using ^10 and might try clay art
center's uwl next. my husband uses the slab roller
and i use the wheel also. we are always seeking a
clay that works well for both. some of the more
plastic clays that i like to throw with tend to warp
when used for slab formed plates and platters.
laguna white has been the best so far except for it
being too firm for me. clay art center usually sends
me a nice soft clay when requested and it is their own
brand. thanks for responding.
=====
ginny from orcas island, washington.
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Ron Roy on sat 11 aug 01
Easier said than done. The analysis and unity formula tell you nothing
about particle size and expansion (only good for shiny glazes.) Melt is
influnces by particle size and expansion is influenced by melt - so is
cristobalite if you are firing high enough. Like that.
It is more useful for the more pure bodies like porcelain - can cut down on
TiO2 for instance if you have good analysis for different kaolins and ball
clays. Good for subbing spar for Neph Sy for instance.
Excellent for replaceing a lost clay - mine runs out or closes - need a
new high iron clay - works good for that.
I have to add - this is tricky - had to learn the tricky parts and still
learning but it can be done.
The main thing the potters were complaining about - it seems to me - the
clay companies did not know enough to help and they did not know either.
Sorta like the blind leading the blind - each blaming the other when they
found themselves in the ditch.
One way the Potters council could make things better. Set up some standards
for clay makes and certify them.
Do you screen all your clays?
Do you test all your raw ingredients?
Do you test all your batches?
Do you make all your test data available to your customers?
Do you have qualified staff to help with problems?
Want someone to help find ways to test the companies?
RR
>And I had forgotten that that might apply to clay. So, if that is the
>case, then what was all that whining about a couple of weeks ago about
>the clay companies not giving out recipes? The reasons for wanting the
>recipes in the first place seemed to be (on the surface) so that studio
>potters could better match clay to glaze and make various knowledgeable
>decisions.
>
>Ron Roy wrote:
>
>> It's the law - every MSDS has to have an analysis - if you have an analysis
>> you can calculate the molecular formula.
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
Alex Solla on mon 13 aug 01
I totally agree with Ron on this one, but I would like
to add another STANDARD test ALL clay suppliers should
adhere to: wetness. It is not hard to test batches of
clay with a penetrometer. They can be simple and crude
or fancy and graduated to the nth degree. But there
needs to be a standard, so that when you get your clay
and it is too hard to too stiff, you can get the clay
you want consistently. The companies that already do
this, usually only do it with bodies being custom made
for the potter, but I Feel they should do it for ALL
of their bodies. God only knows, you dont need squishy
mud for slab building or pressing, and if I have to
throw another mug from clay I could drive a nail with
I will go nuts! It's enough to make a fellow spring
for a pugmill.
Just my 4 cents on this all.
-Alex Solla
--- Ron Roy wrote:
> Easier said than done. The analysis and unity
> formula tell you nothing
> about particle size and expansion (only good for
> shiny glazes.) Melt is
> influnces by particle size and expansion is
> influenced by melt - so is
> cristobalite if you are firing high enough. Like
> that.
>
> It is more useful for the more pure bodies like
> porcelain - can cut down on
> TiO2 for instance if you have good analysis for
> different kaolins and ball
> clays. Good for subbing spar for Neph Sy for
> instance.
>
> Excellent for replaceing a lost clay - mine runs
> out or closes - need a
> new high iron clay - works good for that.
>
> I have to add - this is tricky - had to learn the
> tricky parts and still
> learning but it can be done.
>
> The main thing the potters were complaining about -
> it seems to me - the
> clay companies did not know enough to help and they
> did not know either.
> Sorta like the blind leading the blind - each
> blaming the other when they
> found themselves in the ditch.
>
> One way the Potters council could make things
> better. Set up some standards
> for clay makes and certify them.
>
> Do you screen all your clays?
> Do you test all your raw ingredients?
> Do you test all your batches?
> Do you make all your test data available to your
> customers?
> Do you have qualified staff to help with problems?
>
> Want someone to help find ways to test the
> companies?
>
> RR
>
> >And I had forgotten that that might apply to clay.
> So, if that is the
> >case, then what was all that whining about a couple
> of weeks ago about
> >the clay companies not giving out recipes? The
> reasons for wanting the
> >recipes in the first place seemed to be (on the
> surface) so that studio
> >potters could better match clay to glaze and make
> various knowledgeable
> >decisions.
> >
> >Ron Roy wrote:
> >
> >> It's the law - every MSDS has to have an analysis
> - if you have an analysis
> >> you can calculate the molecular formula.
>
> Ron Roy
> RR# 4
> 15084 Little Lake Rd..
> Brighton,
> Ontario, Canada
> KOK 1H0
> Residence 613-475-9544
> Studio 613-475-3715
> Fax 613-475-3513
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
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