David Hendley on sun 5 aug 01
This has been hashed out on Clayart many times. I think everyone
agrees that crazed dishes are more likely to harbor bacteria than
well glazed surfaces.
This does not mean that crazed glazes are necessarily unhygienic if
they are adequately cleaned, they are just harder to clean.
All your bacterial count would tell you is if the pieces in question
were properly washed.
I'll take my cue from the Health Department, which in most jurisdictions
will not allow restaurants to use chipped or crazed dishes, so I would
never intentionally use a crazing glaze, and I strive to formulate glazes
that wear well through the years.
That being said, I certainly don't spend time worrying about eating
from crazed glaze surfaces. There are plenty of more hazardous things
in the world.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "mariko cruse"
To:
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 10:36 AM
Subject: Sanitary aspect of crazed pots
Hi everyone,
I was just thinking - do we know just how unsanitary are the crazed pots?
To me, it is reasonable to assume that bacteria can survive in the crevices
made by crazing. But, is there anyone who compared the bacterial count
between the crazed surface and uncrazed surface under the same condition?
Suppose, we wash, rinse, and air dry two pots of same shape and size. Then,
using a sterile, moistend swab
go over the food-contacting surface, and streak out a sheep blood agar
plate(can be obatained from a hospital microbiologiy lab), incubate
aerobically for 48 hours at the body temp, if possible, then count the
number of bacteria growing on each plate. This test will tell us something.
We can do this with our unwashed and washed fingers, also.
Any comment? Mariko
mariko cruse on sun 5 aug 01
Hi everyone,
I was just thinking - do we know just how unsanitary are the crazed =
pots? To me, it is reasonable to assume that bacteria can survive in =
the crevices made by crazing. But, is there anyone who compared the =
bacterial count between the crazed surface and uncrazed surface under =
the same condition? Suppose, we wash, rinse, and air dry two pots of =
same shape and size. Then, using a sterile, moistend swab
go over the food-contacting surface, and streak out a sheep blood agar =
plate(can be obatained from a hospital microbiologiy lab), incubate =
aerobically for 48 hours at the body temp, if possible, then count the =
number of bacteria growing on each plate. This test will tell us =
something.
We can do this with our unwashed and washed fingers, also.
Any comment? Mariko
Paul Lewing on sun 5 aug 01
We discuss this every couple of years on Clayart, and I never can believe
it. Obviously, uncrazed glazes are better than crazed glazes, just for the
sake of craftsmanship.
But does anyone really believe that there are germs that are tough enough,
and deeply embedded enough in the cracks, to survive regular washing, the
dishwasher and the occasional stint in the microwave? And if they do survive
all that, that they swarm out on contact with food in sufficient numbers to
make anyone sick?
And I realize this is a litigious time, but is there really a lawyer in the
world who seriously thinks he can prove that a case of food poisoning was
caused by germs harbored in crazes, and not by germs from the utensils, the
counter tops, other dishes, the original wrapper, or just out of the air?
Has there ever been a case like this even make it to court, much less one
where it's been proven that this ever caused food poisoning?
Has anybody who's worried about those germs in the crazes ever eaten a
salad? Did you heat the lettuce up to 140 degrees before you ate it? Did
you rinse it with disinfectant? No, you rinsed it with plain water. How
could you possibly think you should worry about germs lurking down inside
crazed glazes when you're willing to eat raw fruit? With your hands, no
less!
So let's have some perspective on this. Worrying about germs in crazed
glazes is just paranoia.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
mariko cruse on mon 6 aug 01
Dear David Hendley,
Thank you for your response.
I was thinking about the comparison between the crazed and uncrazed pots
under the same washing and rinsing conditions, not the comparison between
the washed and unwashed crazed pots. By the way, I am not paranoid about
eating food from a crazed pot. I did that all my life in Japan. But, I
would never ignore the potential danger of crazed surface. I have worked in
clinical microbiology too long to ignore. Mariko
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hendley"
To:
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Sanitary aspect of crazed pots
> This has been hashed out on Clayart many times. I think everyone
> agrees that crazed dishes are more likely to harbor bacteria than
> well glazed surfaces.
> This does not mean that crazed glazes are necessarily unhygienic if
> they are adequately cleaned, they are just harder to clean.
> All your bacterial count would tell you is if the pieces in question
> were properly washed.
>
> I'll take my cue from the Health Department, which in most jurisdictions
> will not allow restaurants to use chipped or crazed dishes, so I would
> never intentionally use a crazing glaze, and I strive to formulate glazes
> that wear well through the years.
> That being said, I certainly don't spend time worrying about eating
> from crazed glaze surfaces. There are plenty of more hazardous things
> in the world.
>
> David Hendley
> Maydelle, Texas
> hendley@tyler.net
> http://www.farmpots.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mariko cruse"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 10:36 AM
> Subject: Sanitary aspect of crazed pots
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> I was just thinking - do we know just how unsanitary are the crazed pots?
> To me, it is reasonable to assume that bacteria can survive in the
crevices
> made by crazing. But, is there anyone who compared the bacterial count
> between the crazed surface and uncrazed surface under the same condition?
> Suppose, we wash, rinse, and air dry two pots of same shape and size.
Then,
> using a sterile, moistend swab
> go over the food-contacting surface, and streak out a sheep blood agar
> plate(can be obatained from a hospital microbiologiy lab), incubate
> aerobically for 48 hours at the body temp, if possible, then count the
> number of bacteria growing on each plate. This test will tell us
something.
> We can do this with our unwashed and washed fingers, also.
> Any comment? Mariko
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ron Roy on tue 7 aug 01
The problem is not eating off crazed ware - it is the storage of food on
such ware. Temperature and time are the factors that give any culture time
to grow. The more bacteria the faster the culture grows.
I do believe dish washing machines do a much better job of sanitizing
dishes than hand washing. Best to remember - many don't put their fine
dinner ware in the dish washer.
I'm not saying I believe crazing is a big problem but I am saying we have
to be careful what we believe. Disbelieving what we don't want to believe
is no way to run a business.
I would be most interested to see the results of Mariko's proposal -
especially after hand washed dish had been in the cupboard for a week at
room temperature. Especially if it had raw egge in it before the washing.
Temperature and time - sounds like I'm talking about glazes again.
RR
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
Lee Love on tue 7 aug 01
I think that all the yunomi at our workshop that we use for Ocha (tea break)
are crazed or cracked. They have a patina from tea also.
At the monastery, we used to wash our orioki (formal meal nesting bowls)
with tea and then drink the wash water. It was then that I learned of the weak
antiseptic nature of green tea.
We could worry about things like crazing and antiseptism, but I believe
our worries would be misplaced. Better to worry about what goes into our
factory foods than fret about crazed pots that have been used for thousands of
years.
I understand that the plastic chopping boards that are now popular are
better at harboring germs than the old wooden ones were.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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Edouard Bastarache on tue 7 aug 01
Hello Mariko,
It is the only way to know for sure.
Later.
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://www.absolutearts.com/portfolios/e/edouardb/
"Hi everyone,
I was just thinking - do we know just how unsanitary are the crazed pots?
To me, it is reasonable to assume that bacteria can survive in the
crevices
made by crazing. But, is there anyone who compared the bacterial count
between the crazed surface and uncrazed surface under the same condition?
Suppose, we wash, rinse, and air dry two pots of same shape and size.
Then,
using a sterile, moistend swab
go over the food-contacting surface, and streak out a sheep blood agar
plate(can be obatained from a hospital microbiologiy lab), incubate
aerobically for 48 hours at the body temp, if possible, then count the
number of bacteria growing on each plate. This test will tell us
something.
We can do this with our unwashed and washed fingers, also.
Any comment?
Mariko"
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ron Roy on wed 8 aug 01
I would think taking successive samples every couple of days for a week on
both surfaces - at room temperature would be more revealing.
I think it is an important experiment.
I also would like to see the results on an unvitrified body with a crazed glaze.
I read recently that salmonella used to be a problem on the surface of eggs
- now it's inside them as well - the problem is getting trickier.
RR
>Hi everyone,
>I was just thinking - do we know just how unsanitary are the crazed pots?
>To me, it is reasonable to assume that bacteria can survive in the
>crevices made by crazing. But, is there anyone who compared the
>bacterial count between the crazed surface and uncrazed surface under the
>same condition? Suppose, we wash, rinse, and air dry two pots of same
>shape and size. Then, using a sterile, moistend swab
>go over the food-contacting surface, and streak out a sheep blood agar
>plate(can be obatained from a hospital microbiologiy lab), incubate
>aerobically for 48 hours at the body temp, if possible, then count the
>number of bacteria growing on each plate. This test will tell us
>something.
>We can do this with our unwashed and washed fingers, also.
>Any comment? Mariko
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
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