SusanRaku@AOL.COM on fri 17 aug 01
In a message dated 8/17/2001 11:25:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bruec@ANVNET
writes:
> > I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I
> > attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense.
> I'm
> > going to leave out of this e-mail the name of the person and the name of
> the
> > workshop.
I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid this
situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
Otherwise do not bring it up.
Susan
Rowdy Dragon Pottery on fri 17 aug 01
>I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I
>attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense.
>[snip]
>What would you do if you spent over $1200.00 for a workshop and did not come
>home with any pots that looked anything like the person who was giving the
>workshop? The purpose of the workshop was to learn that persons technique.
>Would you ask for some kind of refund?
While the workshop may have been terrible, you might reconsider whether
your expectations were reasonable. I attend workshops to get a grasp of new
skills and technical knowledge, not to gain proficiency in those new areas
in a week. When I attended 2 day Stephen Hill workshop recently, where we
never touched unfired clay, I learned an incredible amount. But most
important to me was the way this new learning boosted--turbocharged,
actually--my own work. When I attended Dannon Rhudy's workshop two summers
ago, the most important things I learned had to do with form, or with
smaller techniques, like using the skin between fingers to compress the
rim. True, I also learned her greenware mold technique. But I learned
this in ways that related the technique to my own pots.
I can produce pots at home. So coming away with new work is gravy. It
seems more than a little insulting to expect to make pots resembling
someone else's, (which would not be my choice in any case) after a
week. Do you think they developed their proficiency overnight? Your
expectation to have your glazed pots look like the instructors also seems
to me to minimize what it takes to develop one's work. We are each
different, and your goals may be very different from mine. But if I could
buy competence or personal style for $1200, I would lose out the one of the
things that holds me to potting: the constant striving for learning,
growth, and vitality.
Neil Berkowitz
Earl Brunner on fri 17 aug 01
You are quoting someone else in the body of my reply to that person and
in the process making it appear like I am the one being quoted. The
original message of which you are quoting was written by:
LALocklear@AOL.COM
I agree with you, I just don't want it to appear that you are quoting me
when in fact you are not.
SusanRaku@AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 8/17/2001 11:25:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bruec@ANV.NET
> writes:
>
>
>
>>> I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I
>>> attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense.
>>
>> I'm
>>
>>> going to leave out of this e-mail the name of the person and the name of
>>
>> the
>>
>>> workshop.
>>
>
>
> I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
> talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid this
> situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
> Otherwise do not bring it up.
>
> Susan
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
LALocklear@AOL.COM on fri 17 aug 01
Hello Everyone,
I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I=20
attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense. I'm=20
going to leave out of this e-mail the name of the person and the name of the=
=20
workshop. I had to pay for the workshop, airfare, lodging, car rental, meal=
s=20
and misc. expenses. This workshop did not meet any of my expectations. =20
Everyone in the workshop was complaining to each other about how bad the=20
workshop was going. The person was not organized; he did not have any kind=20
of agenda or time schedule. I realize that not everyone needs to work with=20=
a=20
time schedule, but if you are not an organized person you should prepare a=20
time schedule. He was not in control of the workshop and did not seem=20
prepared. Sometimes when the person was giving us information about the=20
process, he seemed to be unsure if it was right or if it was going to work.=20=
=20
When he was explaining his process or just talking with us he seemed to be=20
spaced out sometimes. He would pause for long periods of time and sometimes=
=20
forget what he was going to say. We followed the person glazing instruction=
s=20
perfectly and the pots came out of the kiln looking terrible. They didn't=20
looking anything like the glazed pots he brought with him or the ones on the=
=20
Internet. The person giving the workshop said we would be doing a number=20
thing that did not take place.
We sat around with nothing to do for hours at a time. The last two days we=20
didn=E2=80=99t do hardly anything. Most of the time we spend sharing our ow=
n ideas=20
with the others in the workshop.
What would you do if you spent over $1200.00 for a workshop and did not come=
=20
home with any pots that looked anything like the person who was giving the=20
workshop? The purpose of the workshop was to learn that persons technique.=20
Would you ask for some kind of refund?
Thanks in advance for your feedback,
Lori=13
Paul Lewing on fri 17 aug 01
on 8/17/01 8:10 PM, LALocklear@AOL.COM at LALocklear@AOL.COM wrote:
> What would you do if you spent over $1200.00 for a workshop and did not come=
> =20
> home with any pots that looked anything like the person who was giving the=20
> workshop? The purpose of the workshop was to learn that persons technique.=20
Hi, Lori.
I'd agree that you did not get your money's worth out of this workshop.
That's really inexcusable to have virtually nothing planned for two days of
a five-day workshop. Granted, if it's a hands-on workshop, the instructor
needs to leave time for students to do their own work, but that's
ridiculous. Did you mention it to the administration of the school while
you were there?
However, I'd disagree a bit with the attitude you expressed here. While
learning the instructor's techniques was certainly a good reason to take his
workshop, one should never expect to come home with pieces that look like
the instructor's. The purpose of taking workshops, or any instruction for
that matter, is to take what you can use to advantage in your own work.
Personally, I would have confronted the instructor during the workshop and
told him you were not getting what you wanted. Maybe I'm a lot more
conscientious than that guy, but I'd want to know.
I took a workshop once from a famous potter (who shall remain nameless) who
was a notorious skirt-chaser. There was a very serious, and very
attractive, woman in the audience who after about three days of what would
now be called sexual harassment called him on it in front of the group in
very unequivocal terms. After that he treated her like a serious student.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Earl Brunner on fri 17 aug 01
First off, the people that you should be complaining to should be the
ones that promoted and put on the workshop. Second and it's too late
for this now, but if I had spend 1200.00 dollars on the workshop I would
have bugged the heck out of the presenter to GET my $1200.00 worth.
Although the airfare, lodging, car rental, meals and etc. are all
expenses, you cannot count them as part of the cost of the workshop, in
the same way that you count the actual workshop fees. I know that one
could argue that without making the trip, the other expenses wouldn't
have occurred, however those expenses are part of your decision to
attend the workshop and there are a lot of variables between one person
and another as to what they are willing to spend on those things.
Finally, I don't like reading messages like this that don't name names.
For us readers, what's the point? We might get stuck attending a
workshop by the same guy next week. Last summer there was an ongoing
discussion about a workshop that was held at a well known venue. It
was several weeks before the people responsible for the workshop could
present their point of view, which in my opinion did change my viewpoint
at least partially on the situation. By complaining in this manner, you
can say anything you like (and I don't mean to suggest that what you say
is not an accurate reflection on your viewpoint or feelings) and they
don't really have an opportunity to give their version.
Some times our personal expectations are different than the reality of
the situation and we are disappointed. Sometimes it is more a problem
with our expectations, that the situations. If I read you right you
said that some things were promoted as being
components of the workshop and those things didn't happen. I would have
been very vocal about that at the time.
LALocklear@AOL.COM wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I
> attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense. I'm
> going to leave out of this e-mail the name of the person and the name of the
> workshop. I had to pay for the workshop, airfare, lodging, car rental, meals
> and misc. expenses. This workshop did not meet any of my expectations.
> Everyone in the workshop was complaining to each other about how bad the
> workshop was going. The person was not organized; he did not have any kind
> of agenda or time schedule. I realize that not everyone needs to work with a
> time schedule, but if you are not an organized person you should prepare a
> time schedule.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
vince pitelka on sat 18 aug 01
> I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
> talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid this
> situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
> Otherwise do not bring it up.
There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe that
Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage. Just because an
individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts. Let's keep this discussion
list as positive as possible, and let's do whatever we can to avoid ever
having it degenerate into a blacklist.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Gayle Bair on sat 18 aug 01
I've written about this before but feel the need to repeat it.
Years ago I went to a 2 day workshop. The potter was well known and the =
workshop was highly recommended.
After 4 hours I thought I was going to die. He was very nearly the =
dullest person I had ever met. He worked on the wheel at a hypnotically =
slow pace rarely spoke and when he did it was in a low dull near =
monotone. A few times I even started to fall asleep. Forcing myself to =
sit there I felt my brains leaking out of the back of my head!
=20
I described it later as having a severe allergic reaction to this =
person. I bitched about the workshop for months.
Then I noticed my work was changing....I was using a lot of the =
techniques I saw him use. My level of expectation and standards had =
risen. So even though I had a miserable experience I gained much from =
that workshop.
The last workshop I did I was annoyed because the potter was more =
interested in finishing the demo pieces he planned to take to his next =
show then demonstrate the techniques he was famous for. I didn't need =
to see trimming ad nauseaum I wanted to see his techniques. I did feel =
cheated but still learned a lot.
Now of course I didn't spend over $1000 but I can tell you one thing, if =
I felt that way I would have spoke to the director before I left.
Gayle Bair- Bainbridge Island WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of L. P. Skeen
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 4:38 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Terrible Workshops Need Advice
> Finally, I don't like reading messages like this that don't name =
names.
> For us readers, what's the point? We might get stuck attending a
> workshop by the same guy next week
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I haven't been "away" to a
workshop in ages, but when I do go I want to hve the confidence that the
presenter is capable and good quality.
L
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.
L. P. Skeen on sat 18 aug 01
> Finally, I don't like reading messages like this that don't name names.
> For us readers, what's the point? We might get stuck attending a
> workshop by the same guy next week
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I haven't been "away" to a
workshop in ages, but when I do go I want to hve the confidence that the
presenter is capable and good quality.
L
vince pitelka on sat 18 aug 01
Lori said:
"What would you do if you spent over $1200.00 for a workshop and did not
come
home with any pots that looked anything like the person who was giving the
workshop? The purpose of the workshop was to learn that persons technique.
Would you ask for some kind of refund?"
Lori -
That is an expensive workshop for just one week, although we do not know if
that included room and board. If not, it is very expensive in today's
market. It is always difficult to respond based on only on person's report,
but it seems apparent that most or all of your fellow workshop participants
shared these frustrations. You were certainly entitled to a well-organized
workshop packed with information and experience. The workshop format is
usually an incredible learning experience, with a great deal of activity
crammed into a short period of time. It is not uncommon for some
participants to claim that they learned more in a one-week workshop than
they do in many semester-long classes.
I am wondering why you allowed the workshop to proceed through the whole
week without speaking up and demanding your money's worth? Whether the
venue is a workshop, an art center class, or a college class, no student
should ever settle for less than they deserve. It is the teacher's
responsibility to deliver their best, and there is no excuse for doing
otherwise. That should be true in all educational opportunities, but it is
especially true in the workshop format, since the participants have usually
taken vacation from their studio/profession and have paid a considerable
amount of money for transportation, workshop fees, and room/board, and
should expect a short-term high-intensity learning experience.
Regarding your complaint about not learning to make pots like the workshop
leader, I cannot offer any sympathy. As you said, the point was to learn
the person's technique. When you take a workshop, you should assimilate
information from the workshop teacher and incorporate it into your own work,
but the intent should never be to learn to make wares which look like those
of the workshop teacher, because then the work is just derivative. There
are too many workshop junkies whose personal style changes completely with
each workshop they take. As the old cliche says, immitation is the
sincerest form of flattery, and in this case it is not uncommon to immitate
the work of the workshop leader as a learning experience, but that should
never be the primary point. That said, I can certainly sympathize with you
about the glazes, and it does seem odd that the workshop teacher was unable
to show you how to get the desired glaze results.
There is no excuse for a workshop leader to be so disorganized. Every
workshop should begin with a very definite plan and schedule, so that the
participants know what to expect from day to day, and every workshop leader
should give out handouts including all the necessary technical and process
information and recipes.
I commend you for not mentioning the name of the venue or the presenter.
There is too much of that on Clayart, and it often just seems spiteful and
vindictive. You have every reason to feel cheated, but unfortunately at this
point I do not think you can really ask for a refund. In the future, when
you sign up for a class or a workshop, at the first sign that things are not
going as promised, SPEAK UP in a tactful and diplomatic way, but be
forceful, and do not accept shoddy teaching or leadership. Be gentle for
the first day, since the workshop leader has often travelled long distance
and may be jet-lagged and a little out-of-sorts, but then if problems
continue, speak first to the workshop teacher, and then to the organizers or
director. Do not allow another day to go by without following through on
this, and demand your money's worth. Do not let a teacher or workshop
leader get away with doing a sloppy job and wasting your time and money.
Please don't let your well-justified disenchantment affect the promise of
future workshops. As you know, most people have a wonderful time at
workshops. I recommend you take some workshops at the Appalachian Center
for Crafts in Smithville TN. We do a good job of it, the food and
accommodations are excellent, and it is a wonderful place to go for a
vacation.
Feel free to email me off-list if you want to discuss the specifics of your
experience in more detail. Good luck with future workshops -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Wade Blocker on sat 18 aug 01
It was my experience that good potters do not necessarily make good
instructors. I felt that they needed to take a course in teacher training.
That is when I started relying on books rather than taking workshops.
Mia in ABQ
lela martens on sat 18 aug 01
A couple of years ago a fellow guild member had a very similar experience.
Time,travel,lodging, etc. He was ticked and got in touch with others who
attended the workshop through the facilities registration list. Three
quarters of attendees sent in their complaints and everyone got the cost of
the workshop back. It didn`t cover their expenses, but they felt better and
the facility now does more background research on their instructors. A
potter`s form of self governing perhaps. Lela
>From: LALocklear@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Terrible Workshops Need Advice
>Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:10:42 EDT
>
>Hello Everyone,
>
>I went to a workshop this summer and it was terrible. The workshop I
>attended was for one week and was what I consider to be quite expense. I'm
>going to leave out of this e-mail the name of the person and the name of
>the
>workshop. I had to pay for the workshop, airfare, lodging, car rental,
>meals
>and misc. expenses. This workshop did not meet any of my expectations.
>Everyone in the workshop was complaining to each other about how bad the
>workshop was going. The person was not organized; he did not have any kind
>of agenda or time schedule. I realize that not everyone needs to work with
>a
>time schedule, but if you are not an organized person you should prepare a
>time schedule. He was not in control of the workshop and did not seem
>prepared. Sometimes when the person was giving us information about the
>process, he seemed to be unsure if it was right or if it was going to work.
>When he was explaining his process or just talking with us he seemed to be
>spaced out sometimes. He would pause for long periods of time and
>sometimes
>forget what he was going to say. We followed the person glazing
>instructions
>perfectly and the pots came out of the kiln looking terrible. They didn't
>looking anything like the glazed pots he brought with him or the ones on
>the
>Internet. The person giving the workshop said we would be doing a number
>thing that did not take place.
>
>We sat around with nothing to do for hours at a time. The last two days we
>didn’t do hardly anything. Most of the time we spend sharing our own
>ideas
>with the others in the workshop.
>
>What would you do if you spent over $1200.00 for a workshop and did not
>come
>home with any pots that looked anything like the person who was giving the
>workshop? The purpose of the workshop was to learn that persons technique.
>Would you ask for some kind of refund?
>
>
>Thanks in advance for your feedback,
>
>Lori
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
GORMO1@AOL.COM on sun 19 aug 01
if you look at these messages you know way so many professional fields
have so many frauds because nobody tells!Would you let your friend go to
a doctor if you knew he/she was a quack? Buy clay that's short?Or buy a hugo?
If we don't who will?
jim
In a message dated 8/19/01 7:33:56 PM, sottovoce1@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
<< Lori,
Frauds are everywhere and the arts/crafts certainly have more than their
share. I had a similiar experience this summer in a five week course. The
kiln person went on an authorized vacation for the last two weeks so a large
portion of our work was only bisqued because the instructor couldn't operate
the reduction kiln. Should anyone want to know the institution that allowed
this to happen, I would be more than happy to tell you if you live in
Maryland. The attendees have sent a letter to the administrator.
Many workshops allow different skill levels of participants and those who
struggle to keep up may find the experience a bit frustrating. What
concerns me is the fact that you had hours with nothing to do. How could
this be so if clay was available? The possibilities are endless. The glaze
problem is a delicate matter of kilns and glaze materials that may have not
been familiar. Although, I do agree the price was a bit steep for a week of
socializing in the clay lab. Personally, I would write a letter to whomever
is in charge of the workshop, the guest artist, and better business bureau.
Vince says -
>> There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe
that
Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage>>
I disagree. I think this list may be about protecting the diverse and
dispersed potter community from those would would filch our clay dollars.
However, I don't agree with using names to blacklist, only facilities.
Regards,
Carolsan
>>
vince pitelka on sun 19 aug 01
> Then it doens.t do any good to hear about it in the first place. This
> was more of a dump on clayart that a real request for advice. We have
> asked a number of questions and said a few things and recieved no new
> response.
Jeese Earl, give Lori a break. This was not in any way a "dump on Clayart,"
and you insult Lori with that implication. She explained the situation and
asked for our advice. It is as simple as that. She did not use the list to
blackball the venue or the presenter. Instead, she did the responsible,
rational thing and simply explained the situation without naming names.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on sun 19 aug 01
In a message dated 8/19/2001 10:36:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
> Any time you are considering a workshop and need more information about the
> host and/or the presenter you have only to post a request to Clayart, and
> you will get numerous opinions.
>
Vince, you sound very wise and logical, and to be quite a pleasant person.
However I still have a few concerns regarding your train of thought.
What is the difference if someone gives an opinion or warning to us that is
unsolicited? Isn't it just as useful? And then don't we have the option to
ask for an explanation or others opinions and then make up our own mind? I
have found that if someone badmouths someone else unfairly the person being
attacked will respond or others will respond in defense. Also I have
experienced situations where I was hurt because someone did not speak out
against someone else when it was deserved. Maybe you have experienced the
other side. I am unaware of any blacklist or slanderous behavior that has
endured. Am I missing something?
Susan
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on sun 19 aug 01
In a message dated 8/19/2001 1:01:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
> > I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
> > talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid this
> > situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
> > Otherwise do not bring it up.
>
Vinci disagree with you. It does not mean that anyone will be blacklisted
because of one incident or one opinion. However it does make us aware that a
situation may need some looking into before we step into it. As far as I am
concerned it is no different then getting a reference. As an artist it is to
my best interest to do that before investing in a costly workshop. I am not
in an academic environment not do I have the opportunity to speak with other
potters about workshops they have attended so from my standpoint the word
does not "get around". Therefore I appreciate hearing about specific
workshops and teachers on Clayart.
Obviously the tone of the complaint or concern is something to be considered.
Expressing one's dissatisfaction with a specific concern or workshop in an
honest matter is far different then being a vindictive troublemaker. Please
do not lump such individuals together.
Susan
Earl Brunner on sun 19 aug 01
That would be why it is sometimes referred to as a ceramics arts
DISCUSSION list...
It's an open discussion. I agree that until someone else posts with a
differing viewpoint that it is one sided. If it stayed one sided then
it wouldn't be fair perhaps. But without knowing who, what, where, and
when, THAT'S not going to happen.
I'm not for bashing, but I am open to discussion and to hearing both
sides.
If some one doesn't like it let's attempt to find out why, if their
complaint is based in actual problems then we should know. Vince, I am
prepared to accept the many testimonials that people have given here on
clayart, that you give a great workshop, but the type of protective
silence that you suggest here smacks of "good ol' boy" mentality. Its
one of the things that keeps bad doctors practicing, and bad teachers
teaching.
vince pitelka wrote:
>> I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
>> talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid this
>> situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
>> Otherwise do not bring it up.
>
>
> There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe that
> Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
> this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
> based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
> one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage. Just because an
> individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
> and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
> corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
> shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
> supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts. Let's keep this discussion
> list as positive as possible, and let's do whatever we can to avoid ever
> having it degenerate into a blacklist.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Saic1984@AOL.COM on sun 19 aug 01
I agree, it does none of us any good to know where/when this was. My advis=
e=20
is to
contact the organizers, and to respectfully request a partial refund. =20
Explain why you
feel that the workshop was NOT as advertised, and that you feel that you=20
didn't
get what you contracted for. Anyone paying for a workshop (any amount) shou=
ld
at the very least receive a professional presentation, including a list of=20
workshop objectives, and an itinerary (most presenters have to submit those=20
to be considered). If the place holding this is in anyway conserned with=20
their future, they will accommodate you. If they didn't realize that the=20
workshop went so abhorrently, then they should know this in order to prevent=
=20
this type of thing from happening again.
Andr=E9
(Photoclay workshop presenter).=20
Carolsan on sun 19 aug 01
Lori,
Frauds are everywhere and the arts/crafts certainly have more than their
share. I had a similiar experience this summer in a five week course. The
kiln person went on an authorized vacation for the last two weeks so a large
portion of our work was only bisqued because the instructor couldn't operate
the reduction kiln. Should anyone want to know the institution that allowed
this to happen, I would be more than happy to tell you if you live in
Maryland. The attendees have sent a letter to the administrator.
Many workshops allow different skill levels of participants and those who
struggle to keep up may find the experience a bit frustrating. What
concerns me is the fact that you had hours with nothing to do. How could
this be so if clay was available? The possibilities are endless. The glaze
problem is a delicate matter of kilns and glaze materials that may have not
been familiar. Although, I do agree the price was a bit steep for a week of
socializing in the clay lab. Personally, I would write a letter to whomever
is in charge of the workshop, the guest artist, and better business bureau.
Vince says -
>> There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe
that
Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage>>
I disagree. I think this list may be about protecting the diverse and
dispersed potter community from those would would filch our clay dollars.
However, I don't agree with using names to blacklist, only facilities.
Regards,
Carolsan
http://pages.ivillage.com/getlostinart
Earl Brunner on sun 19 aug 01
Then it doens.t do any good to hear about it in the first place. This=20
was more of a dump on clayart that a real request for advice. We have=20
asked a number of questions and said a few things and recieved no new=20
response.
Saic1984@AOL.COM wrote:
> I agree, it does none of us any good to know where/when this was. My =
advise=20
> is to
> contact the organizers, and to respectfully request a partial refund. =20
> Explain why you
> feel that the workshop was NOT as advertised, and that you feel that yo=
u=20
> didn't
> get what you contracted for. Anyone paying for a workshop (any amount)=
should
> at the very least receive a professional presentation, including a list=
of=20
> workshop objectives, and an itinerary (most presenters have to submit t=
hose=20
> to be considered). If the place holding this is in anyway conserned wit=
h=20
> their future, they will accommodate you. If they didn't realize that t=
he=20
> workshop went so abhorrently, then they should know this in order to pr=
event=20
> this type of thing from happening again.
> Andr=E9
> (Photoclay workshop presenter).=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________________________________=
_______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>=20
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>=20
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pcl=
ink.com.
--=20
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
vince pitelka on sun 19 aug 01
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Terrible Workshops Need Advice
> In a message dated 8/19/2001 1:01:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
>
>
> > > I find it very frustrating when you do not share what workshop you are
> > > talking about so that others can be more careful and possibly avoid
this
> > > situation. Please be kind and brave enough to share this information.
> > > Otherwise do not bring it up.
> >
>
> Vince I disagree with you. It does not mean that anyone will be
blacklisted
> because of one incident or one opinion. However it does make us aware
that a
> situation may need some looking into before we step into it. As far as I
am
> concerned it is no different then getting a reference. As an artist it is
to
> my best interest to do that before investing in a costly workshop. I am
not
> in an academic environment not do I have the opportunity to speak with
other
> potters about workshops they have attended so from my standpoint the word
> does not "get around". Therefore I appreciate hearing about specific
> workshops and teachers on Clayart.
Susan -
I cannot see how you can possibly compare this to getting a reference for a
workshop, or how you can say that it is not blacklisting. If you mention
names you damage both the workshop host and the workshop presenter, in a
situation where you do not know for sure at all whether the person who sent
the original post has represented the situation accurately. That would be
slander of the worst sort, and it is a type of mean-spirited vindictive post
which does not belong on Clayart.
Any time you are considering a workshop and need more information about the
host and/or the presenter you have only to post a request to Clayart, and
you will get numerous opinions.
> Obviously the tone of the complaint or concern is something to be
considered.
> Expressing one's dissatisfaction with a specific concern or workshop in
an
> honest matter is far different then being a vindictive troublemaker.
Please
> do not lump such individuals together.
You are supporting my point. We do not have a clue whether the individual
post represents vindictive troublemaking or rational opinions. We do not
know if the person is speaking out of some personal frustration which had
nothing to do with other participants in the workshop. We do not know if
any of the information is represented accurately. To post such information
would create a perfect example of "guilty until proven innocent." There are
so many examples of situations where such slander has done irrepairable
damage to an innocent person. Some people go to workshops with a chip on
their shoulder, or with unrealistic expectations of personal attention, or
whatever. I have taught classes or workshops where all but one of the
evaluation forms came back very postive, while the remaining one was
extremely negative. I always take any comments seriously, but I cannot
dwell on those occasional fiercely negative comments. I would hate to think
that the one dissappointed person would be encouraged to post their
complaints to Clayart, and that I would have to live down the damage done as
a result.
To me, this seems so obvious. As I mentioned before, I really commend Lori
for not mentioning the host or the presenter. She wanted an objective
opinion about the situation, and I believe that she showed very good sense.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Earl Brunner on mon 20 aug 01
Gee, Vince, I don't remember getting personal with you. In fact I don't
remember calling anything you said anything remotely like BULLSHIT. You
are certainly entitled to your opinion though.
I agree to the following though. Obviously we aren't going to agree on
this one, and I also agree that we have both probably said enough on the
subject. So I'm done as well.
Have a nice day.
vince pitelka wrote:
>> If some one doesn't like it let's attempt to find out why, if their
>> complaint is based in actual problems then we should know. Vince, I am
>> prepared to accept the many testimonials that people have given here on
>> clayart, that you give a great workshop, but the type of protective
>> silence that you suggest here smacks of "good ol' boy" mentality. Its
>> one of the things that keeps bad doctors practicing, and bad teachers
>> teaching.
>
>
> Sorry to be so direct, Earl, but this is bullshit. Protective silence??
> Did I ever advocate that in any way? After the time you have been on
> Clayart, you obviously know absolutely nothing about me. You take some
> tremendous leaps in interpretation when you post your responses, and it
> would be to your advantage to be a little more tactful. When someone
> solicits advice about something, and a variety of people send in their
> opinions, it is a fair, democratic exchange of information. When someone
> bashes a workshop host or presenter because of a bad experience they had, it
> is a one-sided attack with absolutely no corroboration, and it is completely
> unfair to the workshop host or presenter, and potentially extremely
> destructive. If you cannot see this, I am sorry, but I am through
> repeating myself regarding this subject.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Marcia Selsor on mon 20 aug 01
Dear Lori,
I can vouch for the Appalachian Center for Crafts, it is a great place
to take
workshops as well as give them there. Very reasonably priced too. I hope
the $1200
for your workshop included some room and board. That is the price or
close to it
of my workshop in Italy which also includes room and some meals as well
as some
sightseeing trips for TWO weeks. Several of my previous workshop participants
expressed great satisfaction with the program on Clayart a month or so
ago. . If
you ever get a chance to take workshops at La Meridiana in Italy, Pietro provides
quality experiences with a wide variety of instructors. It is in a 12th century
restored villa in the scenic hills of Tuscany.
Marcia Selsor im Montana
> As you know, most people have a wonderful time at
> workshops. I recommend you take some workshops at the Appalachian Center
> for Crafts in Smithville TN. We do a good job of it, the food and
> accommodations are excellent, and it is a wonderful place to go for a
> vacation.
>
> Feel free to email me off-list if you want to discuss the specifics of your
> experience in more detail. Good luck with future workshops -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Steve Mills on mon 20 aug 01
I agree wholeheartedly with Vince; such *naming & shaming* is out of
keeping with the spirit of the List.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , vince pitelka writes
>There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe that
>Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
>this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
>based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
>one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage. Just because an
>individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
>and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
>corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
>shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
>supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts. Let's keep this discussion
>list as positive as possible, and let's do whatever we can to avoid ever
>having it degenerate into a blacklist.
>Best wishes -
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>Tennessee Technological University
>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
>615/597-5376
>Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
>615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
>http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
John Hesselberth on mon 20 aug 01
on 8/20/01 1:10 AM, Earl Brunner at bruec@ANV.NET wrote:
> Just because an
>> individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
>> and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
>> corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
>> shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
>> supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts.
Hmmmmm. I think the logical extension of this is that "just because an
individual says "everyone in the workshop thought it was great" does not
make it so" either. Therefore, Vince, I would think you would have us
refrain from naming names in positive AND negative comments because they are
uncorroborated and just one person's opinion. After all, why are positive
comments more valid than negative ones? And why should we boost a person's
reputation when it may not be deserved? Unless, that is, we are trying to
have a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" forum full of blue skies,
sunny days and pleasant thoughts.
Seems to me a person ought to be free to post their experiences, positive or
negative, and name or not name the presenter or school depending on their
comfort level and what they are trying to accomplish with the post. The
forum will be a lot richer, in my opinion, when names are named. It doesn't
do me much good to hear a comment like "I went to a great workshop last week
(presenter to remain unnamed) at a really cool place (to remain unnamed) and
really learned a lot." Similarly an unnamed negative reaction doesn't give
me much information. But I still say naming or not naming should be up to
the writer, not some form of censorship by peer pressure.
Regards, John
Web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com Email: john@frogpondpottery.com
"The life so short, the craft so long to learn." Chaucer's translation of
Hippocrates, 5th cent. B.C.
Carolsan on mon 20 aug 01
Saic1984@AOL.COM wrote:
> I agree, it does none of us any good to know where/when this was. >
I should think it would do me a lot more good to have some information of
this bad workshop than no information since I do attend workshops at dire
expense on a few occasions. I think mentioning at least the general
location if not the facility would be helpful. I do not know the
ramifications of giving a persons name, but I would shy away from doing
that.
On a more positive note, I found The Creative Oasis in State College, PA an
excellent facility and a great workshop given by production potter Ian
Stainton and at a reasonable price. Sorry I couldn't make it to the
Clennell one.
Regards,
Carolsan
Matt MacIntire on mon 20 aug 01
John wrote:
JH>> ...naming or not naming should be up to the writer,
JH>> not some form of censorship by peer pressure
Well said! I suspect that many on the list share John's views on this. I
certainly do.
I am glad that John expressed this sensible position so eloquently. We all
read Clayart to learn from others. I hope everyone continues to share their
views and opinions freely.
Matt
Christena Schafale on mon 20 aug 01
One way around this would be for individuals who are interested to write
directly to the person who had the bad experience. That way she could, if
she chose, tell you the who/where details as well as perhaps a fuller
account of what happened. Like many others who have written, I go to
workshops infrequently and at some sacrifice, and I would want to avoid one
that resembled the description given. However, I think that the
information would be best shared off-list, for the reasons many others have
given.
Chris
At 10:58 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Saic1984@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > I agree, it does none of us any good to know where/when this was. >
>
>I should think it would do me a lot more good to have some information of
>this bad workshop than no information since I do attend workshops at dire
>expense on a few occasions. I think mentioning at least the general
>location if not the facility would be helpful. I do not know the
>ramifications of giving a persons name, but I would shy away from doing
>that.
>
>On a more positive note, I found The Creative Oasis in State College, PA an
>excellent facility and a great workshop given by production potter Ian
>Stainton and at a reasonable price. Sorry I couldn't make it to the
>Clennell one.
>
>Regards,
>
>Carolsan
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Consultation and Referral Specialist
Resources for Seniors
christenas@rfsnc.org
www.resourcesforseniors.com
Phone: (919) 713-1537
FAX: (919) 872-9574
1110 Navaho Dr, Suite 400
Raleigh, NC 27609
karen gringhuis on mon 20 aug 01
If you have something definitely negative to say about
a particular workshop or similar subject, why not
write the questioner OFF list including your phone
number and suggest that if they REALLY want your
opinion, they invest a few cents and pick up the
PHONE. (Now there's a concept.)
=====
Karen Gringhuis
KG Pottery
Box 607 Alfred NY 14802
Personal e-mail to:
KGPottery@hotmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Elca Branman on mon 20 aug 01
I took the workshop and can vouch for everything Marcia says...
Elca
On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 03:49:04 -0600 Marcia Selsor writes:
That is the price
> or
> close to it
> of my workshop in Italy which also includes room and some meals as
> well
> as some
> sightseeing trips for TWO weeks. Several of my previous workshop
> participants
> expressed great satisfaction with the program on Clayart a month or
> so
> ago. . If
> you ever get a chance to take workshops at La Meridiana in Italy,
> Pietro provides
> quality experiences with a wide variety of instructors. It is in a
> 12th century
> restored villa in the scenic hills of Tuscany.
> Marcia Selsor im Montana
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Elca Branman.. in Sarasota,Florida,USA
elcab1@juno.com
________________________________________________________________
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Joyce Lee on mon 20 aug 01
ok
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christena Schafale"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Terrible Workshops Need Advice
> One way around this would be for individuals who are interested to write
> directly to the person who had the bad experience. That way she could, if
> she chose, tell you the who/where details as well as perhaps a fuller
> account of what happened. Like many others who have written, I go to
> workshops infrequently and at some sacrifice, and I would want to avoid
one
> that resembled the description given. However, I think that the
> information would be best shared off-list, for the reasons many others
have
> given.
>
> Chris
>
> At 10:58 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Saic1984@AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > > I agree, it does none of us any good to know where/when this was. >
> >
> >I should think it would do me a lot more good to have some information of
> >this bad workshop than no information since I do attend workshops at dire
> >expense on a few occasions. I think mentioning at least the general
> >location if not the facility would be helpful. I do not know the
> >ramifications of giving a persons name, but I would shy away from doing
> >that.
> >
> >On a more positive note, I found The Creative Oasis in State College, PA
an
> >excellent facility and a great workshop given by production potter Ian
> >Stainton and at a reasonable price. Sorry I couldn't make it to the
> >Clennell one.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Carolsan
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >melpots@pclink.com.
>
> Consultation and Referral Specialist
> Resources for Seniors
> christenas@rfsnc.org
> www.resourcesforseniors.com
> Phone: (919) 713-1537
> FAX: (919) 872-9574
> 1110 Navaho Dr, Suite 400
> Raleigh, NC 27609
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner on mon 20 aug 01
I think the first bit of quote below is from Vince in response to a post
from me (but I wouldn't want to mistakenly put words in Vince's mouth...)
I would like to take a part of that quote though and comment on it:
"When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts"
I would simply like to suggest that Clayart is a NORMAL CHANNEL and as
such, just as valid of a vehicle for expression. I find it curious that
one venue for negative expression is ok and another not.
Sure many of us don't like a lot of bashing and negative stuff. Believe
me, this list is mild compared to some lists. If there is a serious
problem with a workshop though, I fail to see why it shouldn't be
discussed here on ClayArt. It's an open forum, others who may disagree
with what is said can certainly express their opinion. Telling everyone
that talking about the quality of clay education on clayart is
inappropriate smacks of censorship and restriction of free speech, how
ever you want to couch in nice words and fancy terms. BTW I don't want
Vince to think I'm picking on him here exclusively. He is not the only
one that has indicated a less than enthusiastic response to this kind of
discussion.
My point would have to be that truth shouldn't hurt anybody. And we
should be able to freely discuss the truth here. If it was truly a bad
workshop, then talking about it won't make it worse. Ignoring it won't
make it better either. We talk about the qualities of a lot of other
clay related products on this forum, why should the quality of the
education we receive be any different?
I have been to enough workshops to know that not everyone that attends
one comes away from it with the same experience. Heck I've seen people
at church moved to tears by a speaker and the person right next to them
put to sleep by the same discourse. I would even go so far as to say
that there have been one or two people at almost every workshop that I
have been to that were real pain-in-the-butts. Open discussion can
mitigate the damage that one pain-in-the-butt can do. I don't
understand why we should think that this discussion should be bad. I
thought that the Peter's Valley discussion last year was productive.
1. We heard both sides
2. Peter's Valley will be more careful in the future
3. I don't think the discussion "damaged" them any (I know that it
wouldn't preclude me from going there)
John Hesselberth wrote:
> on 8/20/01 1:10 AM, Earl Brunner at bruec@ANV.NET wrote:
>
>
>> Just because an
>>
>>> individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
>>> and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
>>> corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
>>> shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
>>> supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts.
>>
>
> Hmmmmm. I think the logical extension of this is that "just because an
> individual says "everyone in the workshop thought it was great" does not
> make it so" either. Therefore, Vince, I would think you would have us
> refrain from naming names in positive AND negative comments because they are
> uncorroborated and just one person's opinion. After all, why are positive
> comments more valid than negative ones? And why should we boost a person's
> reputation when it may not be deserved? Unless, that is, we are trying to
> have a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" forum full of blue skies,
> sunny days and pleasant thoughts.
>
> Seems to me a person ought to be free to post their experiences, positive or
> negative, and name or not name the presenter or school depending on their
> comfort level and what they are trying to accomplish with the post. The
> forum will be a lot richer, in my opinion, when names are named. It doesn't
> do me much good to hear a comment like "I went to a great workshop last week
> (presenter to remain unnamed) at a really cool place (to remain unnamed) and
> really learned a lot." Similarly an unnamed negative reaction doesn't give
> me much information. But I still say naming or not naming should be up to
> the writer, not some form of censorship by peer pressure.
>
> Regards, John
>
>
> Web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com Email: john@frogpondpottery.com
>
> "The life so short, the craft so long to learn." Chaucer's translation of
> Hippocrates, 5th cent. B.C.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on mon 20 aug 01
Perhaps those of us that "do" workshops would do well to check with the
list anytime that we are going to a workshop that contains unknown
quantities. For example, Perhaps I have a pretty good idea that I
really want to see a certain presenter and have heard excellent things
about his workshops , but nothing about the facility. Buds on clayart
could help with location info. Or perhaps the location is fabulous, but
I don't know much about the presenter, there's a good chance that
clayart buddies may be able to help me out.
Non of us want to "waste" our money and most of us could ill afford to
do so. Checking here FIRST might be the way to go.
Christena Schafale wrote:
> One way around this would be for individuals who are interested to write
> directly to the person who had the bad experience. That way she could, if
> she chose, tell you the who/where details as well as perhaps a fuller
> account of what happened. Like many others who have written, I go to
> workshops infrequently and at some sacrifice, and I would want to avoid one
> that resembled the description given. However, I think that the
> information would be best shared off-list, for the reasons many others have
> given.
>
> Chris
>
> At 10:58 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
vince pitelka on mon 20 aug 01
> If some one doesn't like it let's attempt to find out why, if their
> complaint is based in actual problems then we should know. Vince, I am
> prepared to accept the many testimonials that people have given here on
> clayart, that you give a great workshop, but the type of protective
> silence that you suggest here smacks of "good ol' boy" mentality. Its
> one of the things that keeps bad doctors practicing, and bad teachers
> teaching.
Sorry to be so direct, Earl, but this is bullshit. Protective silence??
Did I ever advocate that in any way? After the time you have been on
Clayart, you obviously know absolutely nothing about me. You take some
tremendous leaps in interpretation when you post your responses, and it
would be to your advantage to be a little more tactful. When someone
solicits advice about something, and a variety of people send in their
opinions, it is a fair, democratic exchange of information. When someone
bashes a workshop host or presenter because of a bad experience they had, it
is a one-sided attack with absolutely no corroboration, and it is completely
unfair to the workshop host or presenter, and potentially extremely
destructive. If you cannot see this, I am sorry, but I am through
repeating myself regarding this subject.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Clifford Ross on mon 20 aug 01
If y'all want to know so badly who this person was-E-mail the unhappy guy
off list--- let's move on to more and better>
>
>In message , vince pitelka writes
>>There have been a number of posts with this tone, and I cannot believe that
>>Clayart members would be so insensitive and vindictive. There is no room on
>>this venue for slamming individual workshop venues or presenters on Clayart
>>based on a single post, because one person's opinion is not a concensus, and
>>one person's opinion can do a great deal of damage. Just because an
>>individual says "Everyone in the workshop felt cheated" does not make it so,
>>and we cannot afford to act on such evidence without significant
>>corroboration. When there is a workshop venue or presenter that is doing a
>>shoddy job, word gets around by normal channels without it being
>>supercharged out of proportion by Clayart posts. Let's keep this discussion
>>list as positive as possible, and let's do whatever we can to avoid ever
>>having it degenerate into a blacklist.
>>Best wishes -
>>- Vince
>>
>>Vince Pitelka
>>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>>Tennessee Technological University
>>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>>Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
>>615/597-5376
>>Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
>>615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
>>http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
>--
>Steve Mills
>Bath
>UK
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
vince pitelka on mon 20 aug 01
> Hmmmmm. I think the logical extension of this is that "just because an
> individual says "everyone in the workshop thought it was great" does not
> make it so" either. Therefore, Vince, I would think you would have us
> refrain from naming names in positive AND negative comments because they
are
> uncorroborated and just one person's opinion. After all, why are positive
> comments more valid than negative ones? And why should we boost a
person's
> reputation when it may not be deserved? Unless, that is, we are trying to
> have a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" forum full of blue
skies,
> sunny days and pleasant thoughts.
John -
Pardon my irritation, but I cannot believe that so many intelligent,
rational people have such screwed up opinions on this subject. I am
delighted to hear anyone's opinion on almost anything, but I am getting real
tired of this. The above presents a very strange point of view. Who is
harmed one way or the other by an overinflated positive review of a workshop
venue or presenter? The severely negative post has the potential to be
extremely destructive, and there is always the potential of a hidden agenda.
The same is not true of a complimentary post, unless the person posting is
doing it as a favor to the workshop venue or presenter, and to imagine that
as a regular occurence on Clayart would be very cynical.
There can be no absolutes here. I could never say that no one should ever
name names. I would only hope that any person would be extremely sensitive
to the implications before they post a very damaging message about an
indivual or a workshop venue. I would hope that they would consider all of
the factors involved, and be as fair as possible in their assessment of the
experience. After all that, if they really think something is to be gained
by naming names in a very negative post, then they must do what they think
is right.
> Seems to me a person ought to be free to post their experiences, positive
or
> negative, and name or not name the presenter or school depending on their
> comfort level and what they are trying to accomplish with the post. The
> forum will be a lot richer, in my opinion, when names are named.
Richer? Hogwash. If people are encouraged to name names in negative posts,
it could turn into the kind of blacklist I dread. That is a horrible
thought.
> It doesn't
> do me much good to hear a comment like "I went to a great workshop last
week
> (presenter to remain unnamed) at a really cool place (to remain unnamed)
and
> really learned a lot." Similarly an unnamed negative reaction doesn't
give
> me much information. But I still say naming or not naming should be up to
> the writer, not some form of censorship by peer pressure.
Again, this makes little sense. There is no comparison, especially in
regards to Lori's post. She presented a scenario and asked our opinion.
She was not trying to blackball the presenter or host, because she had the
good sense not to. And to imply that this is some sort of censorship by
peer pressure is incredibly arrogant and insulting. I am expressing my own
personal opinions on this subject, and I ALWAYS encourage others to do the
same. As a teacher, that is what I do. It is up to you whether or not you
accept my opinions, but don't ever accuse me of censorship.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on mon 20 aug 01
> What is the difference if someone gives an opinion or warning to us that
is
> unsolicited? Isn't it just as useful? And then don't we have the option
to
> ask for an explanation or others opinions and then make up our own mind?
Susan -
If we ask for opinions on a workshop venue or presenter, we normally get a
range of opinions, giving us a better context for decision making. When we
ask for such opinions, there is always the chance that someone might have a
chip on their shoulder or a hidden agenda, but their opinions will be
balanced against others. When someone sends in an unsolicited opinion which
attacks the workshop venue or presenter, the immediate implication for many
of us, whether we admit it or not, is that the venue or presenter is guilty
of the stated offense. It's like we read it in the paper. When someone is
mistakenly accused of a crime in the news media and is subsequently proven
innocent, people pay far less attention to the fact that they were cleared
than they did to the initial accusation. Such people's lives are often
ruined. What we are talking about here is far less serious, but I would
really hate to see anyone's reputation or livelihood damaged due to an
exaggerated negative post. We all know occasions where someone had a very
bad experience that was their own fault, and yet they chose to blame
everyone but themselves.
When someone badmouths someone else unfairly and the person being attacked
subsequently responds in his or her defense, there is no more assurance that
their defense is accurately presented than there is that the original attack
was accurately presented. We just cannot tell, so the best policy is to
avoid such unfortunate situations as much as possible.
My comments about a blacklist are extreme, but such posts (which seriously
bash an individual without supportable evidence and give very little
opportunity for any effective defense) seem to be moving in that direction.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
cd on mon 20 aug 01
Once again John Hesselberth is a voice of forthright advice. "Seems to =
me a person ought to be free to post their experiences, positive or =
negative, and name or not name the presenter or school depending on =
their
comfort level and what they are trying to accomplish with the post. The =
forum will be a lot richer, in my opinion, when names are named." =20
Seems to me that ClayArt is the ideal channel for just this type of =
information to be brought to the forefront. If the party giving the =
workshop wants to defend themself, they will certainly have ample =
opportunity, and a "willing to hear both sides" audience. Even if the =
workshop giver does not monitor this channel, someone will very likely =
bring it to their attention. Remember the slamming that B-mix took and =
the thoughtful and informative posts that Jon from Laguna sent to us. =
Informative for us all. Imagine if the early posts complaining about =
B-mix had simply left the clay body and the clay manufacturer blank. No =
one, (including Laguna in this case) would have learned a darn thing.
In his most recent post Vince asks with some stated irritation "Who is =
harmed one way or the other by an overinflated positive review of a =
workshop". There is a very simple answer to your question Vince, the =
next person that plunks down $500 bucks, takes a week away from =
production, purchases a plane ticket, rents a motel etc etc. Only to =
learn that the workshop presenter had been openly overhyped on Clayart! =
Personally I have a very high level of confidence that both sides of =
this story would be presented, and that this forum would then be able to =
make an informed decision. A blanket policy of " Don't tell" does smack =
of censorship. =20
Snail Scott on tue 21 aug 01
I am fairly isolated these days, and I'm not likely to
hear about the reputation of a workshop presenter from
any source other than Clayart. I have no 'normal channels
of information'. With workshops costing hundreds of
dollars not counting incidental expenses, I can't afford
to be uninformed. I may see a flyer and think, "She does
great work; I could learn a lot!" But, can she put
together a good workshop? That's an entirely different
skill set.
I want to hear about other people's opinions, pro and con.
A strong opinion about anyone is likely to touch off a
raft of opinions from others in agreement or opposition.
I don't want to hear "It was cool" or "It sucked". I want
specifics - was it hands-on or mainly lecture? Did it
focus on a particular technique or philosophy? If so,
which? Was it well-planned? If not, did it go OK anyway?
Was the advance advertising accurate? Were the facilities
pleasant/well-supplied/well-staffed? Did it matter? What
was the presumed skill level of participants? Was the
presenter articulate, or otherwise good at conveying the
information?...
If you didn't like it, tell me why! If you did like it,
tell me anyway! What might turn one person off doesn't
mean it wouldn't be great for me, and just because one
person loved it doesn't mean I would think so. Opinions
without specific information are not just useless but
potentially misleading, whether positive or negative.
Opinions WITH information are tools for generating
debate and allow each reader to draw their own conclusions.
Will such a debate always be even-handed and fully
informed? Maybe not, but it beats an information vacuum.
-Snail
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on tue 21 aug 01
Vince, thanks for the response. What you say sounds most logical and my
husband, who I put on a pedestal, has taken sides with you ( he may have to
sleep in the doghouse ). For me, somehow, I have a curiosity that drives me
nuts, and that is one reason I would rather not know of a situation if I
cannot know who and what one is talking about. Also, as mentioned earlier, I
would assume that there may be an element of truth in the complaint, and
would appreciate the tip off so that I might avoid the situation. I know
that is exactly what you would fear.
Regarding positive information, unfortunately I have had the experience where
I was mislead because of it. People are often afraid to say it like it is.
I would imagine that you have experienced the opposite.
I know this has been a stressful and time consuming conversation and so I
will not ask you to go any further. Maybe sometime if we should meet up we
can sit down over a cup of coffee and you can tell me about some of those
experiences you have encountered.
Warm regards,
Susan
Carolsan on wed 22 aug 01
SusanRaku@AOL.COM said -
"Regarding positive information, unfortunately I have had the
experience where
I was mislead because of it. People are often afraid to say it like it is.
I would imagine that you have experienced the opposite."
Susan, that is exactly why I fear the invasive politically correct
propaganda that has seeped into the pores of Americans in the last decade,
diluting the strength and integrity of the citizenry. I can only imagine
how our forefathers would have handled reports of an inferior workshop for
$1500. Also, it is a little zany for one Clayarter to preach a positive
attitude while employing tasteless cheap shots to another's post. An
informative discussion includes all sides of the subject matter, including
negative.
Regards,
C. Burkhart
http://pages.ivillage.com/getlostinart
pammyam on wed 22 aug 01
I have found that part of what I get from a workshop relies
on my enthusiasm, period. I have some expectations about
what I am about to receive, but there are usually surprises
that might not be obvious until later--the little remarks or
actions that peek out of the memories at a later time. I
have been fortunate in that every workshop that I've been to
has been good. There was one that I was thrilled with at
the time and later realized that I'd actually learned very
little, as far as I know. On the other hand, I learned that
I didn't want to do the kind of work that the person was
doing and I didn't want to focus on his techniques or the
materials that he focused on, but I had a wonderful time
trying a goofy project and spending time with the other
people in the workshop. I wouldn't take another workshop
with him, most likely, but hey, at least I think that I know
that.
The really great pottery workshops that I can recall right
off the bat were with:
Rob Barnard
John Jessiman
Steve Branfman
Randy Edmonson
Don Davis
Steven Glass
Julian Stair
Edmund de Waal
..and another whose name escapes me at the moment, and
maybe others that I'm not recalling at all....
(The one that I would possibly not attend again is NOT
listed, by the way!)
These were mostly one or two day gigs with a lot of demo and
little hands-on, usually.
Pam
SusanRaku@AOL.COM on wed 22 aug 01
In a message dated 8/22/2001 12:33:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pammyam@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
> (The one that I would possibly not attend again is NOT
> listed, by the way!)
>
>
OK. So who is it? We will all keep it a secret.
Susan
Jennifer F Boyer on thu 23 aug 01
Tried to keep out of this one, but I think we're not going to
get anywhere: I took a workshop a number of years ago that I
wasn't happy with. I didn't feel that the presenter connected
well with the whole group: only a few chosen favorites. And I
felt that he didn't teach enough diverse techniques.... I was
pretty bummed. My friend who also attended the workshop(we're
both full time potters) had her clay world rocked by this guy.
She totally dropped how she had been working in clay and came up
with a new look, inspired by(NOT COPIED FROM) the techniques
that had been taught. Go figure. I think there are very few
teachers who will inspire equally every individual in a group a
12 or 15 people. I really would have panned this teacher I had
if I hadn't known of my friend's positive feelings. So I think
we'll have to keep an open mind about positive AND negative
reviews of teachers.
Jennifer
SusanRaku@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/22/2001 12:33:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pammyam@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
>
> > (The one that I would possibly not attend again is NOT
> > listed, by the way!)
> >
> >
>
> OK. So who is it? We will all keep it a secret.
>
> Susan
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Jennifer Boyer mailto:jboyer@adelphia.net
Thistle Hill Pottery
95 Powder Horn Glen Rd
Montpelier, VT 05602 USA
802-223-8926
http://www.thistlehillpottery.com/
Never pass on an email warning without checking out this site
for web hoaxes and junk:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/cs/nethoaxes/index.htm
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Clay Coordinator on fri 24 aug 01
Karen,
At Penland we have evaluations after every session. And they are taken very
seriously.
John
Penland
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