throwing porcelain

updated thu 6 feb 03

John Weber on mon 3 sep 01

I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know, so
is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such commercially
available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to become
more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball clay
would you recommend. Thanks for your help.

John Weber
Manakin-Sabot, VA

Bacia Edelman on mon 3 sep 01

Add Grolleg clay if your porcelain body doesn't have it.
Bacia

At 07:35 AM 09/03/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
>well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know, so
>is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such commercially
>available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to become
>more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
>experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball clay
>would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
>
>John Weber
>Manakin-Sabot, VA
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>



Bacia Edelman Madison, Wisconsin
http://www.mypots.com/bacia.htm
http://www.silverhawk5.com/edelman/index.html

Jeri Palmer on mon 3 sep 01

John I throw only porcelain. I have experimented with several bodies and I
find that the cone 9 domestic porcelain from Continental or from Minnesota
Clay fits the bill the best. I would love to try the Porcelain the was
discussed here a few weeks ago. I think it was from Texas Clay Supply Jeri
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Weber"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 9:35 AM
Subject: Throwing Porcelain


> I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
> well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know,
so
> is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such
commercially
> available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to
become
> more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
> experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball
clay
> would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
>
> John Weber
> Manakin-Sabot, VA
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Earl Brunner on mon 3 sep 01

I love to throw Coleman's Porcelain from Aardvark, handles can be a pain
though. Lugs and other types of handles are ok, but pulled handles want
to pull away. I think it has to do with the moisture differential
between the leather hard pot and the wet handle. Attach the handle when
the pot is as wet as it can be helps.

John Weber wrote:

> I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
> well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know, so
> is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such commercially
> available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to become
> more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
> experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball clay
> would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
>
> John Weber
> Manakin-Sabot, VA
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.


--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

Donald Goldsobel on mon 3 sep 01

The answer to the first question is, get LAGUNA Dave's Porcelain.It throws
better than most, takes attachments well and fires slightly off white.I
usually cover the pots with plastic after the handle is attached. No
cracking or rejections.

Donald in the Sn Fernando Valley
>
> At 07:35 AM 09/03/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
> >well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know,
so
> >is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such
commercially
> >available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to
become
> >more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
> >experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball
clay
> >would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
> >
> >John Weber
> >Manakin-Sabot, VA
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
> ___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>
>
> Bacia Edelman Madison, Wisconsin
> http://www.mypots.com/bacia.htm
> http://www.silverhawk5.com/edelman/index.html
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Ron Roy on tue 4 sep 01

Hi John,

You don't say what cone you fire at - a crucial question when talking about
porcelain - or any body for that matter.

I can give a better answer if I know that part.

If you are looking for white - then you will have to put up with lousy
workability - or age your clay well ahead of using it - even then the
workability is going to be a constant problem.

If you are willing to settle for various shades of light grey - that is a
different matter.

Normally - cone 10 porcelain is about half kaolin - the kind of kaolin has
a big effect on workability. Most of the Kaolins we use are processed -
heated, dried and floated - this has an effect on workability - especially
if the heating part is not done carefully.

You might inquire how Helmer Kaolin is processed if you need to go that
route - check the iron content at the same time - no point in trying to get
white if the iron content is too much - fired samples will tell you.

If you replace half the Kaolin with ball clay (find a ball clay with low
iron) you will have much better workability. I recommend a ball clay with a
fair amount of carbon present - helps plasticity - add 2% bentonite and
some epson salts and away you go.

If you need to know where to buy such a body let me know.

RR


>I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
>well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know, so
>is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such commercially
>available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to become
>more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
>experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball clay
>would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
>
>John Weber
>Manakin-Sabot, VA

Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513

iandol on tue 4 sep 01

Dear John Weber,

Word on the streets is that "Southern Ice" (Clayworks) has the rest of =
the porcelains knee capped when it comes to throwing. Would try it but =
its a bit pricey for my pocket. Saw it being used as a medium for pinch =
pots at a demonstration and it has a lot of strength for that game. In =
discussion it was said to be less rubbery than David Leech porcelain on =
the wheel. Rumour has it that it cost quarter of a million to develop!!!

Went in to buy clay last Friday. I use Bennets PB101(porcelain) and =
PB103(white stoneware). Was offered Southern Ice but at $32 a bag =
declined. So I will remain in ignorance of its properties.

All the best,

Ivor.

Susan Fox-Hirschmann on tue 4 sep 01

Hi John
Highwater's Helios throws like a DREAM!!! I know they will send you a
sample if you inquire. And fires white in oxidation. Has a wide firing
range tho ^7-11 tho i take it to 10.
Give it a try
Best of luck and warm regards,
Susan
fox
hirschmann


>From: Ron Roy
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Throwing Porcelain
>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0400
>
>Hi John,
>
>You don't say what cone you fire at - a crucial question when talking about
>porcelain - or any body for that matter.
>
>I can give a better answer if I know that part.
>
>If you are looking for white - then you will have to put up with lousy
>workability - or age your clay well ahead of using it - even then the
>workability is going to be a constant problem.
>
>If you are willing to settle for various shades of light grey - that is a
>different matter.
>
>Normally - cone 10 porcelain is about half kaolin - the kind of kaolin has
>a big effect on workability. Most of the Kaolins we use are processed -
>heated, dried and floated - this has an effect on workability - especially
>if the heating part is not done carefully.
>
>You might inquire how Helmer Kaolin is processed if you need to go that
>route - check the iron content at the same time - no point in trying to get
>white if the iron content is too much - fired samples will tell you.
>
>If you replace half the Kaolin with ball clay (find a ball clay with low
>iron) you will have much better workability. I recommend a ball clay with a
>fair amount of carbon present - helps plasticity - add 2% bentonite and
>some epson salts and away you go.
>
>If you need to know where to buy such a body let me know.
>
>RR
>
>
> >I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
> >well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know,
>so
> >is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such
>commercially
> >available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to
>become
> >more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
> >experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball
>clay
> >would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
> >
> >John Weber
> >Manakin-Sabot, VA
>
>Ron Roy
>RR# 4
>15084 Little Lake Rd..
>Brighton,
>Ontario, Canada
>KOK 1H0
>Residence 613-475-9544
>Studio 613-475-3715
>Fax 613-475-3513
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Michael Wendt on tue 4 sep 01

Ron Roy mentioned Helmer Kaolin as a possible white porcelain additive and I
have some interesting news I learned about it while doing experiments for
the local geologist who works for Alchemy Ventures. You can remove the
colloidal iron magnetically and the whiteness goes way up! I bought a bunch
of the retrieving magnets sold in Harbor Freight and ran the thinned Helmer
slip over them several times. Each time I got more fine black powder. When
no more powder was seen, I made the porcelain as follows:

Helmer 42
custer 22.5
neph sy 7.5
silica 28

The body fires reasonably white at cone 10 and throws very well. drying
shrinkage runs about 3.5- 4%. Total shrinkage is between 11 & 12 %.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Michael Wendt wendtpot@lewiston.com


Ron Roy Wrote:Normally - cone 10 porcelain is about half kaolin - the kind
of kaolin has
a big effect on workability. Most of the Kaolins we use are processed -
heated, dried and floated - this has an effect on workability - especially
if the heating part is not done carefully.

You might inquire how Helmer Kaolin is processed if you need to go that
route - check the iron content at the same time - no point in trying to get
white if the iron content is too much - fired samples will tell you.

If you replace half the Kaolin with ball clay (find a ball clay with low
iron) you will have much better workability. I recommend a ball clay with a
fair amount of carbon present - helps plasticity - add 2% bentonite and
some epson salts and away you go.

If you need to know where to buy such a body let me know.

RR

Paul Taylor on tue 4 sep 01

Dear John

I throw with porcelain - I love it . I find that you can get away with
all sorts of crimes you would dare not commit using stoneware especially
with attachments like handles. The porcelains you get here (europe) are all
very usable and any negatively comes from the race memory of the rubbery
stuff that was sold as porcelain in the sixties .

One of the other reasons for the belief that it is more difficult to
handle than stone ware, is because, potters learn to throw with stoneware
and they put down any of stone wares intrinsic difficulties to being
beginners when they get round to making porcelain all the problems arise in
the context that they know every thing, difficulties are no longer part of
the process but the materials fault. We are all effected by this; the most
confident potters will be reduced to making bud vases with sharp little rims
by 'porcelain'.

Don't fall into the trap. Use a minimum of one and a half pounds of clay
for any thing bar cups and test pots.

The only thing you will need to deal with is protecting the bottom of a
big pot from sticking to the kiln shelf and the shrinkage distorting it at
best - a crack at worst.

And more importantly forget the obligation to have it translucent, unless
you feel it is a particular visual aspect of the pot you are making.
Translucency is marvelos, but make it your choise not an obligation




Regards from Paul Taylor
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery

Alchemy is the proof that economics is not a science.


> From: Jeri Palmer
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:35:13 -0500
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Throwing Porcelain
>
> John I throw only porcelain. I have experimented with several bodies and I
> find that the cone 9 domestic porcelain from Continental or from Minnesota
> Clay fits the bill the best. I would love to try the Porcelain the was
> discussed here a few weeks ago. I think it was from Texas Clay Supply Jeri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Weber"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 9:35 AM
> Subject: Throwing Porcelain
>
>
>> I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
>> well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard (I know,
> so
>> is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such
> commercially
>> available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay body to
> become
>> more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
>> experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind of ball
> clay
>> would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
>>
>> John Weber
>> Manakin-Sabot, VA
>>

John Weber on tue 4 sep 01

Ron, I fire at Cone 10, yesterday it looked a lot like 11 however.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
> Behalf Of Ron Roy
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 9:10 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Throwing Porcelain
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> You don't say what cone you fire at - a crucial question when
> talking about
> porcelain - or any body for that matter.
>
> I can give a better answer if I know that part.
>
> If you are looking for white - then you will have to put up with lousy
> workability - or age your clay well ahead of using it - even then the
> workability is going to be a constant problem.
>
> If you are willing to settle for various shades of light grey - that is a
> different matter.
>
> Normally - cone 10 porcelain is about half kaolin - the kind of kaolin has
> a big effect on workability. Most of the Kaolins we use are processed -
> heated, dried and floated - this has an effect on workability - especially
> if the heating part is not done carefully.
>
> You might inquire how Helmer Kaolin is processed if you need to go that
> route - check the iron content at the same time - no point in
> trying to get
> white if the iron content is too much - fired samples will tell you.
>
> If you replace half the Kaolin with ball clay (find a ball clay with low
> iron) you will have much better workability. I recommend a ball
> clay with a
> fair amount of carbon present - helps plasticity - add 2% bentonite and
> some epson salts and away you go.
>
> If you need to know where to buy such a body let me know.
>
> RR
>
>
> >I am trying to find a porcelain clay body that will be forgiving, throw
> >well, very plastic, and let me put a handle on when leather hard
> (I know, so
> >is everyone else). My question is does anyone know of any such
> commercially
> >available clay, or if I was to alter a typical porcelain clay
> body to become
> >more plastic by adding ball clay or something else, does anyone have any
> >experience on how much ball clay or other to add, and what kind
> of ball clay
> >would you recommend. Thanks for your help.
> >
> >John Weber
> >Manakin-Sabot, VA
>
> Ron Roy
> RR# 4
> 15084 Little Lake Rd..
> Brighton,
> Ontario, Canada
> KOK 1H0
> Residence 613-475-9544
> Studio 613-475-3715
> Fax 613-475-3513
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>

Ron Roy on wed 5 sep 01

Hi Michael,

I was hoping you would respond - now - can you tell us how you process it?

RR

>Ron Roy mentioned Helmer Kaolin as a possible white porcelain additive and I
>have some interesting news I learned about it while doing experiments for
>the local geologist who works for Alchemy Ventures. You can remove the
>colloidal iron magnetically and the whiteness goes way up! I bought a bunch
>of the retrieving magnets sold in Harbor Freight and ran the thinned Helmer
>slip over them several times. Each time I got more fine black powder. When
>no more powder was seen, I made the porcelain as follows:
>
> Helmer 42
> custer 22.5
> neph sy 7.5
> silica 28
>
>The body fires reasonably white at cone 10 and throws very well. drying
>shrinkage runs about 3.5- 4%. Total shrinkage is between 11 & 12 %.
> Hope this helps,
>Regards,
>Michael Wendt wendtpot@lewiston.com

Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513

iandol on wed 5 sep 01

Dear Ron Roy,

You use a big hook!! This one is a nice juicy worm!!

<plasticity>>=20

Now then, explain please.

Can't recall you bringing this gem to the party when we were discussing =
Porcelain last year. Now is this "Carbon", as in graphite, soot, =
charcoal, organic material, calcium carbonate or some other compound? =
And how does it improve plasticity, what's the technology behind it?

All the best,

IVor