Elca Branman on fri 7 sep 01
I think Sam made some very good points there..
Maybe the concept of amateur potter,( using amateur in the sense of lover
of the art but not a full time devotee) and professional potter, (one
with full control and responsibility for all aspects of her/his
production) would be a useful way to think about this.
Of course, both amateur and professional are equal when facing the
aesthetic hammer..
Then, all that counts is the POT,thumb up or thumb down.
Elca Branman.. in Sarasota,Florida,USA
elcab1@juno.com
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mel jacobson on fri 7 sep 01
there are no mold police out there.
do what you want with clay, when you want.
but, and the big but is, just be honest with how
the piece was made. mold pieces are not hand made.
never will be, but, the process of molding, ramming,
slip casting are all good processes for making clay
objects. do it. just don't try to move into another
area...be proud of what you make...and stand up for
it.
i have judged shows that had pots with decals pressed into
them, pots that were molded that were passed off for hand thrown.
after a few years, well, i can spot all that crap.
i usually drop them. `oh, my god, dropped that one, shoot,
and it was a dandy decal too.`
i get just as upset with folks that fire in someone else's kiln,
for example a wood firing, then spout off about `their` work.
not their's. just a part is their's. get those pots to a show as
fast as they can wrap. they want the cover of cm.
fraud.
that is why i never let my kids in high school enter contests.
i made about 60 percent of all the work...my glaze, clay, firing
technique...they just made the pots. they got that message very
clearly. understood.
it reminds me however, that if `brittany spears` can be considered
an artist, well, the world has stooped to a new low.
can't sing, can't act...and she is basically an aerobics instructor.
but, with pimp and hype, one can be anything. just like contests.
get a good friend to fire the pots, use malcolm davis shino, sit back
and watch the process, then ship the pot to a contest.
i much prefer the work of my `godson` bill...he fires in an electric
kiln. cone 6. fusses with his throwing, makes very nice, basic
pots, fires with only ron roy black and ron roy white.
(as to my instruction) and is on his way to being a potter.
works hard at `hay creek` with the fuel kilns, fires, fusses with the
building and bricks and gas. learning. no pretending. same with many
clayarters. have their kiln, glaze, clay. make stuff and fire it. honest
and clear about what they do. as it should be.
just don't be what you are not.
makes for trouble.
and one sleeps better.
mel
39 years of experience with kids that want to change what is, for
what they want. i would never budge. they want to negotiate
truth. can't be done. hold your ground....bite like a doberman.
they hate that.
but, at their 25th class reunion they say things like `god, can you
believe what mel said 25 years ago? still the truth.`
that makes me proud and smile.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
K. Sam Miller on fri 7 sep 01
Damn, Mel! You make the following bold statements...
> i get just as upset with folks that fire in someone else's kiln,
> for example a wood firing, then spout off about `their` work.
> not their's. just a part is their's. get those pots to a show as
> fast as they can wrap. they want the cover of cm.
> fraud.
>
> that is why i never let my kids in high school enter contests.
> i made about 60 percent of all the work...my glaze, clay, firing
> technique...they just made the pots. they got that message very
> clearly. understood.
>
> it reminds me however, that if `brittany spears` can be considered
> an artist, well, the world has stooped to a new low.
> can't sing, can't act...and she is basically an aerobics instructor.
> but, with pimp and hype, one can be anything. just like contests.
> get a good friend to fire the pots, use malcolm davis shino, sit back
> and watch the process, then ship the pot to a contest.
In these three paragraphs you indict everyone that doesn't make their own
clay and glazes & fire their own kilns as frauds if they refer to their work
as their own (over half this list, I would guess)... AND manage to call
Brittany Spears a prositute!
I guess that I am a fraud by your definition, since I work in a Crafts Guild
with community glazes, buy commercial clay, & participate in community
firings. I guess this means that I should never enter competitions or call
my work my own. This is a pretty big horsepill for me to swallow. I'm glad
that I didn't learn about clay in an environment where my work was dismissed
as not REALLY mine (how do your students build self-confidence if their work
is minimized as 60% due to their teacher).
Sorry if it sounds like I'm taking your comments personally, but I guess I
am. I made a promise to myself as an artist that I would not let my
work/confidence be dimished by others insensitive comments. I refuse to buy
in to your notion that my work is not my own. So call me a fraud if you
want to, I won't be dismissed.
You seem to have to insult half the list to make your point, at times. I
probably agree with 80% of what you say, but you always manage to throw in a
few zingers that come off as VERY judgemental (IMHO). Maybe you're just
stirring the pot of controversy with these comments, but it sure alienates
many of us out here.
Sorry for the defensive post.
Sam
Robert Dye on sat 8 sep 01
On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:45:47 -0500, mel jacobson wrote:
> there are no mold police out there.
>do what you want with clay, when you want.
>
>but, and the big but is, just be honest with how
>the piece was made. mold pieces are not hand made.
>never will be, but, the process of molding, ramming,
>slip casting are all good processes for making clay
>objects. do it. just don't try to move into another
>area...be proud of what you make...and stand up for
>it.
>
>i have judged shows that had pots with decals pressed into
>them, pots that were molded that were passed off for hand thrown.
>
>after a few years, well, i can spot all that crap.
>i usually drop them. `oh, my god, dropped that one, shoot,
>and it was a dandy decal too.`
>
>i get just as upset with folks that fire in someone else's kiln,
>for example a wood firing, then spout off about `their` work.
>not their's. just a part is their's. get those pots to a show as
>fast as they can wrap. they want the cover of cm.
>fraud.
>
>that is why i never let my kids in high school enter contests.
>i made about 60 percent of all the work...my glaze, clay, firing
>technique...they just made the pots. they got that message very
>clearly. understood.
>
>it reminds me however, that if `brittany spears` can be considered
>an artist, well, the world has stooped to a new low.
>can't sing, can't act...and she is basically an aerobics instructor.
>but, with pimp and hype, one can be anything. just like contests.
>get a good friend to fire the pots, use malcolm davis shino, sit back
>and watch the process, then ship the pot to a contest.
>
>i much prefer the work of my `godson` bill...he fires in an electric
>kiln. cone 6. fusses with his throwing, makes very nice, basic
>pots, fires with only ron roy black and ron roy white.
>(as to my instruction) and is on his way to being a potter.
>works hard at `hay creek` with the fuel kilns, fires, fusses with the
>building and bricks and gas. learning. no pretending. same with many
>clayarters. have their kiln, glaze, clay. make stuff and fire it. honest
>and clear about what they do. as it should be.
>
>just don't be what you are not.
>makes for trouble.
>and one sleeps better.
>
>mel
>39 years of experience with kids that want to change what is, for
>what they want. i would never budge. they want to negotiate
>truth. can't be done. hold your ground....bite like a doberman.
>they hate that.
>but, at their 25th class reunion they say things like `god, can you
>believe what mel said 25 years ago? still the truth.`
>that makes me proud and smile.
>===========================================================================
============================================================================
I wonder if you have considered all the possibilities here. Most of my
work is "handbuilt" by your definition, I don't have, and can't afford a
wheel, though I have experience with one. I have for a long time been
enamored of one of the shapes of amphora, the greek vessel used to ship
liquids, such a wine and olive oil. The shape is not conducive to
throwing, the bottom is a point, the shape is like a spearpoint. I also
don't have a wood lath so I couldn't turn it. I hand formed a clay model,
using a template and proportions of my design. The model was half the
shape, split lengthwise, modeled on glass. I made two casts, to get a mold
, and made marks on the outside each time I cast, to work towards the best
registration. The mold does not include handles, each one is different. I
design a different base from copper, brass, wood, welding rod, etc for each
vase, and each vase is different in decoration, some sgraffiti, some
majolica, some engobe, and soon some terra sig. I don't know and really
don't care whether they are "art", but they damn well deserve more respect
than oops, sorry I dropped that. They are an attempt to communicate a
shared beauty. They are each one of a kind, I have certainly never seen
anything like them. Your response to ceramic casting seems poorly thought
out hubris.
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Hey, I think you're pushing
Clay Coordinator on sat 8 sep 01
Sam, =20
Take heart.
If even half of what Mel said was true he would surely ascend directly =
into heaven.
Thanks,
John Britt
Penland Clay=20
iandol on sun 9 sep 01
Dear Robert Dye,
I have not problems accepting mould making either for slip casting or =
moulding with firmer clay as a legitimate production method for =
originals or multiples of works of art or crafted designs. It is one way =
of maximising income. Just one design solution. If you are accepting =
commissions then some forms cannot be made in any other way at a profit.
With regard to <shapes of amphora, the Greek vessel used to ship liquids, such a wine =
and olive oil. The shape is not conducive to throwing, the bottom is a =
point, the shape is like a spearpoint.>> There are several approaches =
here one of which you describe very well. Try throwing the form inverted =
with an open base. Or throw the top, sever and invert, perforate the =
base and then pull the excess clay upwards and in, refining the form =
before closing the point. Or coil build the form inverted. Very large =
ones are probably best done by throwing and coiling. Advantages come =
when people know how to take mechanical advantage of clay.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia
=20
Robert Dye on tue 11 sep 01
There are two problems with your approach. The first is that the neck
wouldn't support the weight of the body. The general shape is that of an
arrow head with the diameter of the neck very small compared with the
body. The second is that I have no potters wheel, yet. I am still
building up my inventory of equipment. I can only allow $50/mo. above what
I sell, and so far I have refused to sell until I can afford a digital
camera so I can keep images of everything.
Eleanora Eden on sat 15 sep 01
I throw pots. Always did. I make molds of stuff. Always did. I throw
feet on pots made from molds. And handles and spouts and nice thick
rims. You can point to some stuff and say that's a casting. Sure, its
SQUARE! But there are alot of other pots that are cross-overs and stuff
and nobody can tell. I don't make a big deal about it because I think the
whole discussion is rediculous, although of course if somebody asks I tell
them.
The idea I seem to be hearing on this thread is that some kind of
disclaimer ought to be on them. There is an attitude on the part of alot
of clay people that if you use plaster molds at all even if you make them
all yourself from your own originals that your studio output is somehow
tainted. Please.
One thing I do know is that in my studio at least it takes longer to make a
casting than it does to throw a pot. When you throw pots you do a whole
bunch more or less the same. People brag about how much the same they can
get them. When I do castings there is usually just one of each shape and
each has its particular requirements. Pots like a square teapot can have
many molds, a spout mold, a lid mold, a handle mold as well as the body of
the teapot. Two days' work to make twenty-five pots. Not particularly
efficient compared to throwing. But it often is the only intelligent way
to get where I want to go. When throwing is the smart way to go then I go
that way. Not a big deal.
I think in assuming a superiority to plaster-casting many studio potters
have this view of a whole roomful of molds of the same thing that are
churned out by the gazillion. Sure that is a factory situation. I have a
friend in Berkeley who has a whole little factory of bathroom fixtures made
from her hand. Zillions of molds, and employees and the whole nine
yards. She does a good job of it, too. But that's not the only paradigm
out there about utilizing plaster.
Eleanora
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill eeden@vermontel.net
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 www.eleanoraeden.com
Reid Harvey on sun 16 sep 01
Eleanora and Others,
I've always been a bit puzzled by the bias against mold cast pieces. It
seems that aesthetic considerations should hinge on the quality of the
design and execution, not on the number of pieces made. How is it that
prints in limited edition can be respected as art, for example, and mold
cast ceramics is not art? I am tempted to think that there's a bit of
sour grapes involved, like somebody really didn't enjoy working with
plaster, but perhaps there's something to it that I'm missing. I suggest
this good naturedly, without intending to offend anyone. Perhaps someone
could set me straight on the history of this bias.
Working in Asia and Africa it's interesting to see that people in the
countries we've been to have a definite preference for the mass produced
look, an attitude unlike that of the U.S. or Europe for example. I
remember that in Kenya there is a stoneware pottery where they make
beautiful tableware. Lots of Europeans patronize the pottery, even
though it's in a slum. But Kenyans won't by it, preferring the mass
produced stuff that has decals.
Sad to say in much of Asia and Africa there's not a lot of respect for
what is hand made. On the other hand in the U.S. we put a premium on the
hand made look, the mass produced considered cheap. It seems especially
to be a shame that this attitude is also held by a lot of ceramic
artists.
Reid Harvey
Reid
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