perfection

updated wed 29 aug 12

May Herz on thu 6 sep 01

Hi,
As a retailer of ceramic art my worst customers are those who are in search
of "Perfection", as in "Machine made" pottery.
Have you ever had this annoying problem? How do you handle them?
Thanks,
May Herz
www.mexicanceramic.com

Loraxwoods@AOL.COM on fri 7 sep 01

This brings to mind when the Ceramic League of Miami was lucky enough to have
free use of a store front in a very popular mall for the Christmas season.
Our pottery shop was called "18 Hands" for the 9 potters who financed the
venture. Yes, it was successful.

Anyway. The most frustrating customer was the Yuppie who strolled down from
Bloomies and picked up a piece and gazed at the price tag. This person would
say the price was too high ..."it's just been made by some person..." read
NOT MASS PRODUCED. The Wonderful customer would pick up the same piece and
exclaim, "I can't believe this price for a hand made piece" and trot right
over to the cash register!

Unfortunately new management took over the mall and we no longer have this
venue. Alas, the memories are great, as were the sales!

Nora in Miami still

H.M. Buchanan on fri 7 sep 01

I have a set speech to be delivered (without a hint of sarcasm )to these
people. "Handmade pottery isn't for everyone. Those who like it value the
subtle variations, the marks of the fire and the potters touch. You would
probably be happier with factory produced ware. " Judi Buchanan
----- Original Message -----
From: "May Herz"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:23 PM
Subject: Perfection


> Hi,
> As a retailer of ceramic art my worst customers are those who are in
search
> of "Perfection", as in "Machine made" pottery.
> Have you ever had this annoying problem? How do you handle them?
> Thanks,
> May Herz
> www.mexicanceramic.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Terrance Lazaroff on fri 7 sep 01

May;

Point them to the nearest tupperware store.

Terrance
----- Original Message -----
From: "May Herz"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:23 PM
Subject: Perfection


> Hi,
> As a retailer of ceramic art my worst customers are those who are in
search
> of "Perfection", as in "Machine made" pottery.
> Have you ever had this annoying problem? How do you handle them?
> Thanks,
> May Herz
> www.mexicanceramic.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

vince pitelka on fri 7 sep 01

> As a retailer of ceramic art my worst customers are those who are in
search
> of "Perfection", as in "Machine made" pottery.

May -
Every studio potter needs to educate their audience. By doing so, we build
a market. Anyone who has really experienced the magic of a fine handmade
mug with a truly wonderful handle will never go back to the Walmart mug. It
is our responsibility to advertise our wares in such a way so as to
emphasize the magic of handmade wares, and one of the primary features is
the lack of absolute uniformity. That lack of uniformity expresses and
emphasizes the humanity and personal expression in the individual item.
Machine made ceramic forms, with every piece identical, are dead. You have
to pick your market. If you do not want to wholesale items that are
expected to be identical, then do not sell dinnerware. If you are not
making dinnerware, then it should not matter at all.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

Janet Kaiser on sun 9 sep 01

> > As a retailer of ceramic art my worst customers are
those who are in search of "Perfection", as in "Machine
made" pottery.<<

There are a lot of them about and they are increasing
in number. Maybe the current fashion/trend for studio
produced work which actually looks machine made is
partly to blame? The minimalist, finely thrown,
monotone and (personally speaking) boring, elegant,
modern shapes which are gracing the galleries and being
bought like hot cakes... This type of work fits into
the home environment people are choosing these days.

Here in the UK many people spent the 1980s and 90s
putting back the features into pre-war houses, which
had been stripped out in the 1950s and 60s. All the
fireplaces, dadoes, coving, ceiling roses, turned
banister rails, etc. etc. Wallpaper, paint, lighting,
flooring, furnishing, etc. was chosen to compliment the
restored period of choice. Architectural salvage
companies did a roaring trade and potters also found
that traditional shapes and styles were also
experiencing a renaissance.

Now, we see youngsters setting up their homes and
ripping out all the lovingly restored features. Large,
sparse, uncluttered spaces with maybe one pot and a
large painting are the only art allowed. White walls,
ceilings, carpets and furniture. The painting being the
one splash of colour, not the pot. The pot has to be as
sterile as the rest of the space...

It is probably a natural reaction to their parents'
habits... Cluttered shelves and vitrines are not "in"
anymore. That is left to us oldies. The antique shops,
flea markets and galleries are beginning to realise
this is not a helpful trend.

I personally have a running battle with people who even
want the slate bowls to be "perfect"... This is a stone
which is 300-500 million years old for goodness sakes!
The intrusion of quartz, pyrites and different strata
make the damned stuff look real and just not made from
heavy plastic! The last time a customer tried to point
out all the "faults" in a piece and demanded a
reduction, was quite shocked when I said stone was
millions of years old and had character, just like an
old person. Not many of those without wrinkles and
warts to show they had been around a long time and far
more interesting to live with than the flawless beauty
of the young!

And the magazines have a lot to answer for... Their
styling artists obviously have to promote the
manufacturing companies which spend on advertising. An
article on someone's home dwells more on where people
can buy the fittings, furnishing and decorations (make,
pattern, price, etc.) than on architectural features,
clever decorating, junk shops finds or work by artists,
including potters.

The article on baking scones will show a table set for
tea. Beside the recipe, the make of tablecloth,
crockery, cutlery and even the jam will be given. It is
naturally only coincidental, that those manufacturers
have half or full page adverts in the same issue. And
how often do "editorials" strangely have reference to
juxtaposed averts??

Educate the public? We haven't a snowball's chance in
hell even if was try our damndest!

Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk

Richard Jeffery on mon 10 sep 01

Slate? Ha!

Just to bring this closer to home...

I spent a great day last week helping out a friend who works in Purbeck and
Portland stone. He actually carves it into bowls, table tops and one-off
sinks, but has recently started turning out kitchen work tops (counters?)
from one kind of Purbeck stone which is akin to marble. Marvellous stuff,
full of colour and pattern. Some of the pieces show the pattern of the
cracked surface as the mud dried all those millennia ago - some have
fossils. It seems to be what you have when Carrera marble or local granite
is too passé, darling....

I went out to help him come to terms with a digital camera he had acquired -
ended up taking the pictures myself. Great fun, had to balance on a ladder
in the wind in this quarry in the Purbecks to be able to photograph the
bigger slabs in their entirety. It took 5 of us 2 hours to photograph and
move each of the dozen or so slabs of polished stone, then stack them back
up again.

Why? Well, somewhere in the chain of middlemen between Tony and the
customer's architect/designer in the US, someone suddenly decided they
wanted to a photo of each piece emailed across before they would agree to a
shipping date. We're now sitting waiting to hear if they want a close up of
"that small inclusion on the lower left of the second picture just by the
larger ammonite".

Maybe it's a reasonable request - assuming it's built into the original
process, and not sprung on the maker at the last moment. But somewhere the
cost of this and future orders has to now include about an extra 15 hours
work and the cost of a digital camera.

Now, I know all you potters over there will be wanting some of this hugely
expensive material shipped out to you. Let me know when you are ordering -
might be able to get you a discount...... Hell, I can even send you a
photograph of the hole in the quarry your bit came from!

Richard
Bournemouth UK
www.TheEleventhHour.co.uk

PS - working this stuff produces large amounts of limestone dust in water -
a thick slurry, looks like slip. any ideas on putting this to good use?


-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Janet Kaiser
Sent: 09 September 2001 00:15
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Perfection


I personally have a running battle with people who even
want the slate bowls to be "perfect"... This is a stone
which is 300-500 million years old for goodness sakes!
The intrusion of quartz, pyrites and different strata
make the damned stuff look real and just not made from
heavy plastic! The last time a customer tried to point
out all the "faults" in a piece and demanded a
reduction, was quite shocked when I said stone was
millions of years old and had character, just like an
old person. Not many of those without wrinkles and
warts to show they had been around a long time and far
more interesting to live with than the flawless beauty
of the young!

Educate the public? We haven't a snowball's chance in
hell even if was try our damndest!

Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

GlassyClass on tue 30 oct 01

Another one that I liked, since much of what I am personally able to make
contains flaws when compared to others, or what I read is a flaw in posts or
books.

The Master Teaches Perfection

Each spring, the master potter would go to the village and sell his
ware and visit the town to trade for supplies. There he would interview new
student apprentices and his graduates would sell their work and begin their
travels as journeymen.
One of the first duties of the new apprentices was to help sell the
work and observe what pieces would sell.
The customers would try and barter with these youngsters to make them
give a better price than they should take for the masters most noble
efforts. The apprentices quickly learned how the master felt about each pot
and how to tell a successful piece from a failure in the master's mind.
Often, they would puzzle as to why a piece was priced the way it was.
When questioned about it, the master would point out the numerous flaws to
the piece. No matter what the price of the piece, the master found flaws
within it. In this way the students began to realize just how critical their
new master was of himself and his work and how critical he would be of their
work. Still, it seemed that there was not always a correlation between the
price of a pot and the size and shape and the amount of handwork done in
decoration to achieve a suitable result for price of each piece. The
apprentices were often puzzled by the way the master priced his pottery and
asked the master's journeyman just what a good piece was and how the master
managed to price each piece.
The Journeyman just laughed and said that when they made their own
pieces and gave them life and spirit; they would know at what price a piece
of their soul should sell for.
This answer did not please the students at all. They were not monks.
They did not join a monastery to study religion and the ways of spiritual
existence.
These students' families had paid great sums to apprentice their sons
to this famous craftsman. They had been working faithfull for many hours
each day to learn their tasks and perform their duties faithfully in honor
of their families' name. This master potter demanded much and expected the
students utmost attention and desire to become a potter. Yet he and his
journeyman would just laugh and speak in strange riddles and tell strange
stories with many meanings that sounded more like a religion than a
livelihood whenever the students asked the most simple question about the
making of the craft.
After the harvest season, the potters would pack up all the goods that
they had traded for and go back to their mountain village to gather the
materials for making pottery for the winter months.
It was a great day for them to arrive home at their village. The
village was alive with anticipation to see how the potters had faired in the
market and to see what they had brought back in trade for the hard months of
work making and selling their work. A new dress, some needles and thread, a
new cooking stove, perhaps a new horse or some chickens and a scroll of
tales or two were greatly appreciated.
The simple peasant life that these people lived belide the spiritual
and philosophical wisdom of a knowledge of the world. Often the most prized
trade of the whole season was that of a single book of poetry or mystic
writing by some great sage of an age gone by. After the evening meal, the
master potter would read from one of these books and discuss the relevance
of the writings with the Journeyman.
The students would listen while they attended to their household
chores. The students would comment among themselves before they went to
sleep. Often they would review the lessons that they had learned that day.
Often they would ask why the potter took so much time to study these poems
and writings and ponder about the meaning of these strange passages...

... And, the Great Master apprenticed three students. These students
worked long and hard to learn and master their chosen craft. Each learned
every part of the craft, but excelled at one aspect of the craft.
First, The Master taught the students to practice making each piece
exactly identical. Each day they would meet for dinner and talk of art and
how to make their craft better. They would look at each of their pieces and
choose a piece and comment as to its form and execution. The master listened
to their comments for many days and said little or nothing.
Finally one day, his most able student asked him how the critiques
were going. The master stroked his long beard and thought for a few moments.
He picked up one of his simple pieces and broke it. The students were
shocked...
He smiled and said
"This piece was perfect." and then he fell back to his silence.
The students were amazed. After that, they gathered each day to look
at the pieces and they would select the most perfect of the pieces that they
could find and then they would brake it with great glee and ceremony.
"A few more months rolled by and again his most able student called
upon him during their meal to ask how the critique was going."
The master looked at each of his students and said:
"You have learned to find perfection and destroy it. You must now
learn to find flaw and to make that flaw live."
He choose a piece for each of his students that contained a flaw. He
told each of them to study the flaw and to learn to make the flaw in each of
the next days work. "
Practice making this flaw so that all your pieces have this
character," he said.
So each student now practiced the flaw and learned how to make the
flaw. The pieces were strange and mysterious. Each contained a flaw and the
flaw added character to their pieces. The students learned to control the
flaws by learning what made the flaw. They learned that the flaw could also
be beautiful.
Finally, the master said: "When I look at each of your pieces, I
choose to see the best of the best and tell you how good it is. You choose
the worst of the worst and tell each other how bad it is. Thus you learn
from your mistakes, but not from your perfections. You have learned that a
flaw is beautiful. You have learned that perfection is ugly. Now you must
choose to see each piece in its own light."
With that, he took all his work for that morning and smashed all but
three pieces. He took these pieces and presented it to each of his students.
When the students gathered again, they presented him with their most
prized piece. Each piece was totally different than any of the others that
the students had ever made. Each had character and life and form.

Russell Andavall
The FireGod

Marie Gibbons on tue 30 oct 01

this posts reminds me of hearing about amish quilt makers, who purposely put
a flaw in their quilts... to remind us that these pieces are made by human
beings, imperfect human beings, not a machine, not God, just plain ole
imperfect human beings..... to celebrate our imperfections... our
individuality.

marie gibbons
www.oooladies.com

Elca Branman on tue 30 oct 01

Ditto the carpet makers of the middle east.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:28:09 EST Marie Gibbons
writes:
> this posts reminds me of hearing about amish quilt makers, who
> purposely put
> a flaw in their quilts... to remind us that these pieces are made by
> human
> beings, imperfect human beings, not a machine, not God, just plain
> ole
> imperfect human beings..... to celebrate our imperfections... our
> individuality.
>
> marie gibbons
> www.oooladies.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.

Elca Branman.. in Sarasota,Florida,USA
elcab1@juno.com

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Snail Scott on fri 17 may 02

At 03:48 PM 5/15/02 -0500, Jeff wrote:
>Some rules you can't break...some ya can.


I've always figured that 'rules' are mostly just
ways of presenting general principles to students
'in a nutshell' so they can get started without
having to know everything at once. After the
students have a broader experience, they can
understand the actual reasons for the so-called
rule, and apply the underlying principles in a
manner appropriate to the case at hand.

Baseball has rules - rules are human artifacts.
There is no 'Commissioner of Ceramics' to declare
any practice 'against the rules' and impose
penalties on the naughty violators. Results are
the only arbiter of the success of a technique.
Our 'rules' are 'rules of thumb', and should never
be allowed to become more important than the
actual principles that they synopsize.

'You've gotta bisque before glazing.'
'You've gotta make thick stuff hollow.'
'You've gotta wedge your clay.'
'You've gotta slip-n-score.' Well, WHY do we slip
and score? We score to give a mechanical bond
between clays that might be inclined to split
apart if their particles aren't adequately luted
together, and to resist the inequalities of
shrinkage when separate parts with unequal
moisture are joined. We slip to fill in any air
pockets that might be caused by the scoring.
Too many people approach these techniques like
a magical ritual, with forms and procedures
carefully followed exactly as taught, for fear
of 'bad things' happening! They never seek to
move beyond the ritual to understanding.

Once a person understands the 'why', they can
decide whether a given 'rule' applies to the
particular circumstance in front of them.

'Rules' are a useful taching tool. They can
allow someone to get started making work without
a perfect understanding of the process, and
that's a good thing, since hands-on experience
is also an essential teacher. When reasons are
understood, though, rules can fall away.

-Snail

Les Haworth on fri 17 may 02

"I always say break the rules if you can and if you fail, chalk it up to
lessons learned and move on.
If you succeed, do it till it's second nature and pass it on." ~Les H.




Lester R. Haworth III
Sales and Technical Support
Laguna Clay Co.
14400 Lomitas ave
City of Industry, CA 91746
1(800) 4-LAGUNA ext. 229
(626)330-0631 ext. 229
les@lagunaclay.com
www.lagunaclay.com
"The fire is my faithful servant and my demanding master. My most brilliant
collaborator and my harshest critic."
~David Hendley

-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Snail Scott
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:32 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Perfection


At 03:48 PM 5/15/02 -0500, Jeff wrote:
>Some rules you can't break...some ya can.


I've always figured that 'rules' are mostly just
ways of presenting general principles to students
'in a nutshell' so they can get started without
having to know everything at once. After the
students have a broader experience, they can
understand the actual reasons for the so-called
rule, and apply the underlying principles in a
manner appropriate to the case at hand.

Baseball has rules - rules are human artifacts.
There is no 'Commissioner of Ceramics' to declare
any practice 'against the rules' and impose
penalties on the naughty violators. Results are
the only arbiter of the success of a technique.
Our 'rules' are 'rules of thumb', and should never
be allowed to become more important than the
actual principles that they synopsize.

'You've gotta bisque before glazing.'
'You've gotta make thick stuff hollow.'
'You've gotta wedge your clay.'
'You've gotta slip-n-score.' Well, WHY do we slip
and score? We score to give a mechanical bond
between clays that might be inclined to split
apart if their particles aren't adequately luted
together, and to resist the inequalities of
shrinkage when separate parts with unequal
moisture are joined. We slip to fill in any air
pockets that might be caused by the scoring.
Too many people approach these techniques like
a magical ritual, with forms and procedures
carefully followed exactly as taught, for fear
of 'bad things' happening! They never seek to
move beyond the ritual to understanding.

Once a person understands the 'why', they can
decide whether a given 'rule' applies to the
particular circumstance in front of them.

'Rules' are a useful taching tool. They can
allow someone to get started making work without
a perfect understanding of the process, and
that's a good thing, since hands-on experience
is also an essential teacher. When reasons are
understood, though, rules can fall away.

-Snail

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Steve Mills on sat 18 may 02

At the First International Potters Festival at Aberystwyth Paul Soldner
said (paraphrased) *When you start to feel comfortable with Clay, throw
the Rule Book as far as you can out of the nearest window and make your
OWN rules, they're the ones that matter*.

Truest words I ever heard.

Steve
Bath
UK


In message , Les Haworth writes
>"I always say break the rules if you can and if you fail, chalk it up to
>lessons learned and move on.
>If you succeed, do it till it's second nature and pass it on." ~Les H.
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK

Les Haworth on sat 18 may 02

You hit a soft spot Steve. Just for the record Paul Soldner is "The Man!"
Still Kicking, Drinking, and Hot Tubing. Try that at 81! There's only a
couple of men that I truly adore and respect. Paul is one of them. Les H.



Lester R. Haworth III
Sales and Technical Support
Laguna Clay Co.
14400 Lomitas ave
City of Industry, CA 91746
1(800) 4-LAGUNA ext. 229
(626)330-0631 ext. 229
les@lagunaclay.com
www.lagunaclay.com
The fire is my faithful servant and my demanding master. My most brilliant
collaborator and my harshest critic.
~David Hendley

-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Steve Mills
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:22 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Perfection


At the First International Potters Festival at Aberystwyth Paul Soldner
said (paraphrased) *When you start to feel comfortable with Clay, throw
the Rule Book as far as you can out of the nearest window and make your
OWN rules, they're the ones that matter*.

Truest words I ever heard.

Steve
Bath
UK


In message , Les Haworth writes
>"I always say break the rules if you can and if you fail, chalk it up to
>lessons learned and move on.
>If you succeed, do it till it's second nature and pass it on." ~Les H.
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Terrance Lazaroff on sun 29 apr 07

I saw an article on Yahoo that talked about perfection. The author,
Penelope Trunk talked about David Bayles.s book , "Art & Fear .
Observations on the perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking", by David Bayles.

This story is found in the book.

A ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class
into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would
be graded solely on the quantity of the work they produced. All those on
the right would be graded solely on their works' quality.
His procedure was simple: On the final day of class he would bring in his
bathroom scales and weigh the work of the quantity group; 50 pound of pots
rated an A, 40 pounds a B, and so on. Those being graded on quality,
however, needed to produce only one pot -- albeit a perfect one -- to get
an A.
At grading time, the works with the highest quality were all produced by
the group being graded for quantity.

It seems that while the quantity group was busily churning out piles of
work -- and learning from their mistakes -- the quality group had sat
theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for
their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of clay.

Think about this in your own life, even if you're not using clay. The more
you practice, the better you'll get. But you can't practice if you think
only of perfection. Practice is about making mistakes; perfection comes
from imperfection.

Does anyone on the list know the ceramic teacher that this story is talking
about?
Terrance Lazaroff
http://Clayart.ca

Lee Love on mon 30 apr 07

On 4/30/07, Terrance Lazaroff wrote:

> Think about this in your own life, even if you're not using clay. The more
> you practice, the better you'll get. But you can't practice if you think
> only of perfection. Practice is about making mistakes; perfection comes
> from imperfection.

Terrance, I would have competed in both categories: making the
quantity (50 lbs is quick work) and then picking the best pieces for
the quality group.

> Does anyone on the list know the ceramic teacher that this story is talking
> about?

It may be an apocryphal story used in several books. Every thing I
find on the web says, "A ceramics teacher" or "the ceramics teacher."

Here:

http://tinyurl.com/2uyn6e

David Bayles and Ted Orland tell the story about "a ceramics teacher."

--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/

"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau

"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi

Fred Parker on tue 1 may 07

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:47:00 -0500, Terrance Lazaroff
wrote:

>At grading time, the works with the highest quality were all produced by
>the group being graded for quantity.
>
>It seems that while the quantity group was busily churning out piles of
>work -- and learning from their mistakes -- the quality group had sat
>theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for
>their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of clay.
>

Terrance:

Great parable. I hadn't heard it.

In science and engineering the concept of balance between opposing forces
is a central theme. There are the laws of conservation of mass and energy
which state that matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed by
ordinary chemical means, suggesting there is a finite amount of both in
the Universe. We don't make more; we only move it around, taking some
from one entity and adding it to another. In mechanics we learn that for
a stationary object, an applied force is offset by an equal and opposite
force. In chemistry, there is the work of LeChatelier that describes the
tendency of buffer solutions to maintain pH even when acids or bases are
introduced.

This notion of equillibrium is so pervasive throughout the sciences that I
have long wondered if similar principles might also apply to the arts,
relationships and the like. I figured the difficulties in measuring
status compared to measuring the pH of a solution might be the reason we
don't hear much about it.

I suppose the only thing missing in having this parable quantify a
relationship between effort and result in ceramics is a quantifiable unit
of measurement, so I'm going to propose one: I'll call it the "wuz" which
is derived from "warm fuzzy." A unit of clay contains a finite quantity
of "wuz" that is available for extraction. However, a quantity of "anti-
wuz" must be added to extract an equal quantity of wuz from the clay.
Like x-radiation, anti-wuz is cumulative meaning the quantity added to any
quantity of clay always equals all previous amounts plus the quantity to
be added to that specific clay quantity. Wuz, on the other hand is
comparable to visible light -- neither cumulative nor storable. Once
used, wuz disappears from all known venues, perhaps being converted to
some form of cross-disciplinary anti-wuz such as the form concert pianists
require.

To illustrate, a beginning potter who has virtually no experience also has
very little anti-wuz with which to work. This means he or she must
struggle with many failures before producing measurable quantities of wuz
from a quantity of clay. (Remember, the "wuz" is a measurement of
the "warm fuzzy" most people know and cherish.) After an indeterminate
period of struggle, during which anti-wuz accumulates and is retained for
future offsets to produce greater amounts of future wuz, thus greater
returns of the sense of gratification enjoyed by proficient artisans.

It would therefore be impossible to conclude otherwise than practice is
vital to gratification, and there is not as much difference between art
and science as many believe.

Fred Parker

Pat Lindemann on wed 2 may 07

This is so true! As anyone who has worked production knows, repetition
> creates control. When I worked production, I threw anywhere from 50-80 of
> the same item every day. They were all required to be the same height,
> width, depth etc. Learning to throw with that type of precision for one
> item created a confidence to make any item. I was astounded to see that I
> could easily throw a multitude of items after a few months of work at the
> production level.


Have a wonderful day!
Pat
In sunny South Dakota, where the air has that 'spring ' feel to it!

>At grading time, the works with the highest quality were all produced by
> >the group being graded for quantity.
> >
> >It seems that while the quantity group was busily churning out piles of
> >work -- and learning from their mistakes -- the quality group had sat
> >theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for
> >their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of clay.
> >
>
>

May Luk on wed 2 may 07

Hello Fred;

The 'equillibrium' in art and design that I know of is
the trio of idea, materials and process. On the days
when these three are in the right mix and if you are
in the right mood, it can be quite 'wuzzy'.

Good day!
May
I saw Newton's notebook.


[...]This notion of equillibrium is so pervasive
throughout the sciences that I have long wondered if
similar principles might also apply to the arts,
relationships and the like. [...]
Fred Parker

Fred Parker on wed 2 may 07

Hello May:

I believe there is at least one additional component in art and design.
I've never been able to describe it well, but I first noticed it when I
used to dabble in fiber. There was a point I sometimes reached when I
became one with my sewing machine. My hands and fingers moved
differently; my eyes saw everything in proper relation to each other;
stitch length worked with fabric textures, etc.

The next time I saw it, it was with clay. When it happens, it almost
seems as if I scale down to whatever I have in my hands, and things work.
I've always called it "the zone" for want of something better. Whatever
it is, it is definitely a form of creative equillibrium that is, in my
opinion, analogous to the equillibria described in the sciences. It's not
as easy to describe or quantify as the equillibria of chemistry, physics
or thermodynamics. Consequently, it is not as easy to replicate.

What a wonderful topic for graduate research, and you are absolutely
right: it leads to much "wuz." So much more productive than bitching
about how damnable humans are, whining about beer cans on the right-of-way
or wasting one's talents on a PC replay of a faculty advisor's political
prejudices.

Maybe in my next life...

Fred


On Wed, 2 May 2007 17:07:56 +0100, May Luk
wrote:

>Hello Fred;
>
>The 'equillibrium' in art and design that I know of is
>the trio of idea, materials and process. On the days
>when these three are in the right mix and if you are
>in the right mood, it can be quite 'wuzzy'.
>
>Good day!
>May
>I saw Newton's notebook.
>
>
>[...]This notion of equillibrium is so pervasive
>throughout the sciences that I have long wondered if
>similar principles might also apply to the arts,
>relationships and the like. [...]
>Fred Parker
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
____
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

May Luk on thu 3 may 07

Hello Fred;

Thanks for the further clarification and I am
delighted in your ‘scale down’ description. That is so
spot on.

Chemistry, physics and thermodynamics are easier to
quantify because they use the language of maths. (I
wonder if one can get into the zone by just doing
maths problems? Maths is quite creative. ) Anyhow,
when it comes to the brain, there is much to be
understood. You might find the link below
interesting, it kind of relates to the ‘pleasure
without desire, a state of contentment and
indifference’, the zone, the flow and the whatnot.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/4880272.stm)

It would be interesting to hear from a neuroscientist
who works in clay and/or fibre.

I hope this is not too intrusive. Did you not get into
the ‘zone’ when you were doing architectural projects?


Thanks for the chat.

May

P.S. You realized you said ‘saw’ while experiencing
the zone. That’s a good one!

Taylor Hendrix on thu 3 may 07

Hey ho, Fred,

What you are describing as "the zone" was touched on in a recent
thread. It is Csikszentmihalyi's concept of "Flow". I am just now
reading his book, _ Finding flow : the psychology of engagement with
everyday life_ but a real rough explaination how when flow is probable
is when high concentration is needed and when one's skills are fully
involved. Times when our challenges or goals are just about managable
with our skills, those times can create flow. David Hendley calls it
"Potter's Time" btw.

I am a seeker after flow, but it is true that reaching a flow state
requires an initial outlay of psychic engergy, an investment in energy
which some people (me included for sure ((damn television)) ) are
unwilling to make after a hard day at work, etc.

Peace out,

Taylor in Rockport TX

On 5/2/07, Fred Parker wrote:
...
> The next time I saw it, it was with clay. When it happens, it almost
> seems as if I scale down to whatever I have in my hands, and things work.
> I've always called it "the zone" for want of something better.
...

Lee Love on fri 4 may 07

On 5/4/07, Taylor Hendrix wrote:

> I am a seeker after flow, but it is true that reaching a flow state
> requires an initial outlay of psychic engergy, an investment in energy
> which some people (me included for sure ((damn television)) ) are
> unwilling to make after a hard day at work, etc.

It is difficult to do until a certain level of skill is
achieved. Once the body knows what to do without thinking about it,
it allows alphawave "relaxed attention" to settle in.

Like Yogi Berra said when he asked (as best as I can
remember), "Yogi, what do you think of when you hit the ball?" Yogi
replied, "I don't think of anything. You can't think and swing at
the same time."

You learn this naturally through meditation. In the
beginning, it is very difficult, but over time, you come to it.
Once you have it in meditation, it is easy to transfer to working at
the wheel.

It shouldn't be mistaken for the dreamy theta wave state.
Mantra type meditation puts you into a state similar to dreaming or
daydreaming.

An easy way to tell between the states when you are
mediating, doing martial arts or throwing, is to notice if you know
what is going on around you. You can during alpha wave states.
But in theta wave states, you are "zoned out."


--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://potters.blogspot.com/

"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau

"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi

Beth Christensen on sun 6 may 07

I'm a dabbler...I work in clay, fiber, drawing and other stuff from time to
time. I've loved that zone since I discovered it while drawing as a
teenager. Even if you don't make your living by art, it can be a sanity
saver, a magical place you can go. The comment about not being able to
achieve that degree of concentration and immersion after a hard day of work
resonated with me. It's kind of like exercise...it's hard to work up the
energy to do it, even though you know you'll feel more energetic if you
do. The draw of sitting in front of that damn tv wins out over the clay
board in the basement more nights than not.

revivalsteph@yahoo.com on sat 25 aug 12

the following are in no particular order , are only the thoughts of the=
=3D

morning .

Perfection is a part of a wave in a never ending oscillation of waves. I
remember a perfection wave in the 1980s, or rather a wave of perfect,
flawless, pristine work, perfectly and pristinely photographed. controlle=
=3D
d
glazes, perfect edges, flawless. To everything there is a season.

presentation and perfection go hand in hand, as in,
" Are you ready for your closeup dahling?!" the better a work can be
perfectly displayed in a 2d format, the more alluring it will be. perfect=
=3D

skin, perfect features, who cannot help but swoon over a camera friendly =
=3D
star?

with Facebook in particular now, I see stunning works from all over the
world. the bar is subtly raised. It can trend higher and higher until
there is a reaction in the opposite direction.=3D20

the very best design/work can be pristine yet speak to us.=3D20

Perfect work looks best in a perfect context.

good design married with good handling of materials and execution are
admittedly, to die for and deserving of admiration.

People differ. different personalities make different work, have differen=
=3D
t
goals ,parameters, and results.

An individual's work changes over time, some more than others. i do
sometimes wonder how much we consciously or subconsciously mimic what we=
=3D

see. Are we genetically predetermined to be fashion slaves?

Some of what we call 'perfection' is about control. I do not know quite=
=3D

how to express this , but control without 'life' to me is cold and boring=
=3D
.
Control that somehow keeps the kiss of life may get closer to perfection=
=3D
in
my sense. maybe it is about materials as well as the hand of the artist.

With clay it seems that, as we develop skill , we assert control, often w=
=3D
e
struggle for control, getting closer and closer to an edge where , once
skill is attained , we begin to decide how tightly we work that control,
utilizing materials, techniques, everything at hand. milling it, refining=
=3D

it. Some move ever closer to that edge, while others begin to back away..=
=3D
.In
a waltz or a dance , precision is a component, but so is that indescriba=
=3D
ble
component that tells us the dance is fluid and real, as much about passio=
=3D
n
as it is precision. For me , the best dance has both.=3D20

perfection is not something I chase. perfect is not a word I spend much t=
=3D
ime
with.

vibrant is a word I like. if work can vibrate in a real environment, in =
=3D
a
daily context to bring pleasure . that is good for me. it may never be th=
=3D
e
shining piece under the spotlight in the white gallery, but it will sound=
=3D
a
harmony or a basenote in a larger symphony .

however i do enjoy work made by people who are not like me , and who make=
=3D

work i would never make...viva la difference!=3D20

I 'm not sure I have defined anything here, just musing and hanging out =
=3D
way
to late in the AM at the keyboard!

Stephani Stephenson

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 26 aug 12

Hi Joyce,


By what process was this Bowl 'Made ( and decorated? ) by Machine'?



Phil
L v



----- Original Message -----
From: "J Lee"
To:
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 7:15 PM
Subject: Fw: perfection


My favorite "machine made" bowl was purchased in a grocery store in
Manitoba, Canada......
Thompson is the name of the town, I think. The creamy white with blues and
greens
glazes coloring large floppy flowers in the style of .... what IS that
glazing technique which
looks like watercolors... I think Linda Arbuckle is known for it???

I don't think many would accept that the bowl is "hand=3Dmade". It was "mad=
e
in Italy,"
cost $15.00.... each bowl in the stack of a dozen or more looked exactly
like all the
others. Almost everybody waiting to check out had one or two bowls on top o=
f
their carts. I believe there was a maximum of two to a customer. My
impression was that
many of the bowls were being purchased for Christmas gifts.

Personally, that experience is rather disturbing. I like the bowl but
wouldn't
buy one again. My point, if I have one, is that there are some good-looking
pots out
there, surprisingly so, which are likely rip-offs from some of the world's
finest
potters . Brrrrrr don't like to think about it. Threatens us all in a
variety of ways.

Joyce
In the Mojave Desert of California who just opened her electric bill. Talk
about scary!
This month the evaporative cooler wouldn't do the job so, as often happens
in
August, we're dependent upon the air-conditioner....... the electric bill
has never been
so high. I'll just pay it and "think about it tomorrow" ala Scarlett O'Hara=
.
Twice as
much as last year at this time. Jeez//////////////////////////////drat/




Hi Lee, all...



Seems to me that it depends...

What do you mean by 'perfect' in this ( albeit, possibly wide ) context?

I almost never see any 'machine made' Ceramics which I would call 'perfect'=
.
They may be 'uniform' from one-to-another, but, usually, that is about it.

Maybe some rare examples do exist, but, none come to mind for me at this
moment...other than some from the 1930s, who's Designer's name(s) escape me=
,
as do who ever the Manufactory was or were, who made them, but, otherwise..=
.

While I have seen many times, examples of Hand Thrown/Trimmed/Glazed etc
Ceramic where, my reaction can or indeed is one of saying to myself
"This...is perfect!"

Other kinds of things, made by co-operating successions of Operatives OF
'Machines' or related process, can or are to my perspecuity, quite often
what I will gladly call 'perfect'. And, these are things which can not
practically be
'Made by Hand', so...



Phil
L v



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwiddershins"


What is the point of making things "handmade", when what you are doing by
hand, can be made "more perfectly" by machine?
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=C3=B3g ar chul an tI=E2=80=94tIr dlainn trina ch=C3=A9ile"=E2=
=80=94that is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue --sent from my iPod
>

Sumi von Dassow on sun 26 aug 12

Exactly! I tell my students that all the time when they worry about
something like two mugs not matching.

Sumi
> What is the point of making things "handmade", when what you are doing by=
hand, can be made "more perfectly" by machine?

Patty Kaliher on sun 26 aug 12

James Freeman,

Four words:

Your wife is right!

With aloha,

Patty Kaliher

mel jacobson on sun 26 aug 12

there is an old british saying...`you see what you want to see`.
and, that old yarn is very true for potters.

if you are a perfectionist, all you see is mistake, flaw, un-perfect.

the casual potter sees `gesture`.

my take has always been...as i live with an ultra perfectionist,
DONE IS BETTER THAN PERFECT. yes, when perfectionism rules
the life, nothing gets done...delay is the action as `i just cannot get it
right`.

now six perfectionist potters will think...`challenge that, i need to
make perfect pots, i have to make perfect pots..mel does not understand`.
hmmm, wannnabet.

there has to be compromise in craft work. or, you pay a huge price.
if i can make pots in minutes, hundred a day, and my friend makes
two a day.....what does he have to charge? some of the perfect pots,
fussy pots in cm would have to garner hundreds of dollars each if
you take time/materials/effort into the price ethic.

i admire well made pots. often i think...`mel, why can't you spend the
extra time and make pots like that?` and the answer is always the same.
`how much time do i have in life?`

my friend mike norman throws pots like he has jelly in his spine.
they just have that natural, hand thrown, `perfect` gestural quality.
i would have to fake my throwing to make mike norman pots...but,
if i pushed myself, i know i can duplicate them. a competent, well trained
thrower can make anything. if i could duplicate mr. uchica perfect
pots, i sure
can duplicate mike's pots...but, i would not even try...they are not mine.

warren mackenzie always said...`learn to see the gifts that the kiln
gives you.`
and that is true. if you always see flaw, then whatever comes from the kil=
n
will never match up to your `image of what should come from the kiln`.
that has been an effort for my apprentice. she predicts what she
wants...therefore
we have to have sharlene come from the house and pick colleen's pots over.
`this is nice, that is really nice`. but, it takes colleen five days
to see her
best pots. she has to mull.

i have learned to look for treasures. things that have no bearing on what
i made. i find them far more often now.

think of how you cheat your customers if you decide what is good, and only
you can make that decision. if you throw away blue pots as `awful` then
you have made a choice for your blue loving customers...they don't get any.
you are the one that loses out.

it is hard to be the teacher of a perfect person. it is very
frustrating to see
the almost `hate for self` in kids. they work for some goal that is not
going to be achievable. that is why for my entire teaching life i never he=
ld
up my work to students as `doable for them`....` i am far too professional
for you kids to match my work...it would be like trying to be a pro running
back like emmit smith and you are in high school.` i always held up pretty
good student work as goal copying. i always said...`can you match my
30 years of making pots in one semester? not on your life...` and then
we would laugh about that.

as i say...you are what you are. it is hard to change that personality tha=
t
nature gave you. but serious looking at your work and looking for the
good, the interesting and letting your customers judge is a good thing.

commercial glazes, ready made clay, electric kilns with computer programs
can
really influence what is made...add perfection to the mix and things
really are changing. who knows good or bad. i do not make that
judgement. up to the potter making the work and their base of
customers...and, what is the cost?
mel



http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart page below:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
http://www.21stcenturykilns.com/

jeanette harris on sun 26 aug 12

When we were remodeling our kitchen, (Vintage is an understatement) we
needed to find a countertop material.

All the magazine and web kitchen designers were putting in slabs of marble.
Yikes! Marble is the absolutely worst thing you could pick. Previously, I
had gotten a lazy susan made of marble and wouldn't you know, the very
first month a bottle of olive oil put a nice, neat ring in it; never to be
removed.

We looked at all kinds of materials for our countertops. Synthetic stone
and 'real' stone. Comparing man-made stone next to God-made stone was no
contest. Stone just breaths; it has life and beauty. I don't know how many
big slabs of stone we looked at in warehouses before we found the one we
liked.

I was not having those tiny mosaics behind my stove or sink. Absolute
madness, in my opinion. Planned obsolescence right before your eyes. In a
few years, those tiny mosaics will be passe, dated. "You'll need to update
your backsplash." you'll be hearing. Not me.

We made all the backsplashes go from the back of the countertop all the way
to the bottoms of the cabinets. Big bold statement that just makes the
kitchen. Easy to clean too. *

We picked soapstone. Which means more care since it is relatively softer
than granite, but scratches disappear with a little oil. I see it every
day, work on it every day, clean it every day and love it every day. I
bought a professional grade stainless steel prep table to do the heavy work
on and to function as a staging area between the oven and table, dishwasher
and storage areas.

Who says you have to follow? My kitchen now works for me and my way of
cooking.

*You can see the befores and afters on my website,
http://www.jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com. Click on the Home Decorating
and Design tab at the right under Labels. I did two kitchens this year.
And not much clay.

James Freeman on sun 26 aug 12

I have a friend, in fact she is the person who got me started in ceramics,
who tells people that she has an MFA in Epoxy. Everything she made in grad
school ended up being glued together for one reason or another. She always
tries to get her students to embrace the flaws in their work. Her favorite
saying when looking at problems in her Ceramics classes is "Japanese people
love that kind of stuff". She has literally pulled my work out of the
trash and added it to her collection. That's when I learned to hit things
with a hammer before throwing them away.

Ten minutes ago I took a piece out of the kiln. It is an Industrialware
amphora. It's about 15" high, and I have a good 15 hours or so into the
piece, more if you count time spent sketching, designing, calculating
angles and intersections, and making patterns. After all that work it came
out with three tiny flaws. Though these are things no one would ever see
unless I pointed them out, and even if seen, would likely be viewed as
simply part of the piece, I view it as a failure. I decided the piece
would not be for sale, and might get the hammer.

Five minutes ago I brought the piece into the house and set it on the
counter. My wife, who knew I had been struggling with the piece, saw it
for the first time and said "It's beautiful! It came out perfect!" I told
her it was junk, and showed her the flaws. She replied, "That's just part
of the piece. They are supposed to look like they are old and industrial.
It's beautiful." This from a woman whose own art quilts are always
flawless!

I am sure she is right (she usually is!), but I am in a quandary. Mel, I
respect your advice to let the customer decide, but in my mind, if I sold
the piece I would always feel guilty, like I ripped off the customer, took
advantage of their ignorance of what I consider to be flaws. Not sure how
to get past that feeling, or if I even should. The solo exhibition the
piece is supposed to be for opens on Monday (Defiance College art gallery,
Defiance, Ohio, if anyone has absolutely nothing better to do). "To be, or
not to be..."

Photo of the piece here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/7863818034/in/photostream

All the best.

...James

James Freeman

"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources

Gene Arnold on sun 26 aug 12

James

Send that piece to me and I'll hammer it for you in about 50 or 60
years.

I agree with your wife sell that puppy!!!

Gene Arnold
mudduck@triad.rr.com

Robert Harris on sun 26 aug 12

Like you James, I seek that sort of perfection.

I remember quite clearly in a woodworking class, one of my classmates broke
off a drill bit inside the leg of a chair. It was in a joint so no-one
would ever see it.

He was absolutely distraught. Our teacher at the time said something along
these lines.

If a craftsman makes a truly absolutely perfect piece, he cannot, will not,
be able to sell it, for it will take a piece of his soul with him.

Those tiny flaws (especially if a customer cannot see them), allows us to
part with something with fewer qualms (or at least one sort of qualm!),
that something with a couple of imperfections.

Having said that I, like you, feel like I am ripping the customer off if I
know that the curve on that pot is not exactly right, or that lip has just
the tiniest bobble on it ...

Difficult to know what to do ....

Keep well,

Robert


On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:46 AM, James Freeman m
> wrote:

> I have a friend, in fact she is the person who got me started in ceramics=
,
> who tells people that she has an MFA in Epoxy. Everything she made in gr=
ad
> school ended up being glued together for one reason or another. She alwa=
ys
> tries to get her students to embrace the flaws in their work. Her favori=
te
> saying when looking at problems in her Ceramics classes is "Japanese peop=
le
> love that kind of stuff". She has literally pulled my work out of the
> trash and added it to her collection. That's when I learned to hit thing=
s
> with a hammer before throwing them away.
>
> Ten minutes ago I took a piece out of the kiln. It is an Industrialware
> amphora. It's about 15" high, and I have a good 15 hours or so into the
> piece, more if you count time spent sketching, designing, calculating
> angles and intersections, and making patterns. After all that work it ca=
me
> out with three tiny flaws. Though these are things no one would ever see
> unless I pointed them out, and even if seen, would likely be viewed as
> simply part of the piece, I view it as a failure. I decided the piece
> would not be for sale, and might get the hammer.
>
> Five minutes ago I brought the piece into the house and set it on the
> counter. My wife, who knew I had been struggling with the piece, saw it
> for the first time and said "It's beautiful! It came out perfect!" I to=
ld
> her it was junk, and showed her the flaws. She replied, "That's just par=
t
> of the piece. They are supposed to look like they are old and industrial=
.
> It's beautiful." This from a woman whose own art quilts are always
> flawless!
>
> I am sure she is right (she usually is!), but I am in a quandary. Mel, I
> respect your advice to let the customer decide, but in my mind, if I sold
> the piece I would always feel guilty, like I ripped off the customer, too=
k
> advantage of their ignorance of what I consider to be flaws. Not sure ho=
w
> to get past that feeling, or if I even should. The solo exhibition the
> piece is supposed to be for opens on Monday (Defiance College art gallery=
,
> Defiance, Ohio, if anyone has absolutely nothing better to do). "To be, =
or
> not to be..."
>
> Photo of the piece here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/7863818034/in/photostream
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
>



--
----------------------------------------------------------

Snail Scott on sun 26 aug 12

There's a saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

More relevant to studio practice: what is the
_appropriate_ level of finish and refinement for
the object I am making?

Loosely thrown, asymmetrical vessels ought to get
a suitably loose, informal finish. That doesn't mean
that the foot ought to be un-level or scratchy, or that
it's OK for the glaze to have bare patches on food-
contact surfaces. A Steven Hill mug looks better with
varied, irregular, drippy glazes than it would with a
smooth, even, shiny glaze. But that doesn't mean
that a greater level of irregularity would be better.
All those overlapping glazes...not random. Would
the result be better it they were? Big occasional
splashes of black, or bright red? or rough rims and
jagged spots on the handles?

A tight, clean-looking object needs an equally
suitable finish. Can you imagine a James Lovera
bowl with a Steven Hill glaze job? It would look as
bad as a Lovera glaze job would on a Hill piece.

A refined, symmetrical, precise object is a lot less
forgiving than a loose, loppy one, though. The range
of things that will simply look wrong is higher, and any
random variations that occur in drying, glazing, firing,
etc, won't just fit right in; they will truly be flaws. When
you set out to do work of that nature, you are setting the
bar high in terms of workmanship and self-judgement.
More irregularity can be forgiven, even welcomed, in
less strictly designed work.

When modern architecture hit the scene in the early
20th century, a lot of builders thought it would be not
just stylish but also cheaper than all that Victorian stuff,
but without the decorative moldings, busy wallpaper,
etc, every lump in the plaster and wiggle in the framing
suddenly stood out like a sore thumb. And it looked
terrible. There was a lot of bad gingerbread Victorian
too, but somehow it didn't look as nasty, because the
details got lost in the visual complexity of the general
effect. More to see =3D harder to focus on the specifics.

Degrees of perfection are relative, and need to be
appropriate. At some level, even the most meticulous
work reaches a point of diminishing returns for effort
expended, but even the loosest work requires a
standard to be met. Finding the right balance for your
own work is essential, and there are no universal criteria.

-Snail

revivalsteph@yahoo.com on sun 26 aug 12

this reminded me of three stories:
The first was a customer who wanted me to make a mold for her to use so s=
=3D
he
herself could press some molding. it was a job handed to me by another
tilemaker when i was first switching over from sculpture to tile. it was =
=3D
to
be a small precise molding with alternating raised domes and diamonds. fi=
=3D
rst
i made the model from clay, but worked way too long on the project becau=
=3D
se
inevitably in the modeling and cleaning i would get one of the domes or
squares slightly off or mar the transition where they raised surfaces met=
=3D

the plane. but i got it as perfect as i could. she was not satisfied. the=
=3D
n i
tried making the model, making a mold, then casting another model in plas=
=3D
ter
so i could sand it into perfection. shit, I was sanding with a magnifyin=
=3D
g
glass and tiny implements....it still did not pass muster. by this time =
=3D
i
had devoted way too many hours to it. I think she was paying next to
nothing. she still didn't like it ,so i punted. and i thought, why even m=
=3D
ake
this sort of model in clay? Plus you can get this same exact thing from h=
=3D
ome
depot for less than a buck?
for me it gave rise to one of my guiding principles. Even when i am
pressing multiples, when i make a model i use clay for a reason, I want=3D=
20=3D
=3D20
the pressed tile to show it's origins. if I wanted a infinitely precise=3D2=
0=3D

degree of precision i would use other materials, and today, I would send=
=3D

this customer elsewhere, for her satisfaction as well as mine,=3D20

the second had to do with a customer, a couple, who wanted 10 sconces.
These were mayanesque sconces for a 1920s home, glazed in a mottled matte=
=3D
=3D20
honey brown glaze. fairly bold detail, going into a room with stucco wal=
=3D
ls
and heavy beams. I gave them a good deal, $100 per sconce.
the pieces were fired and I believe a couple of them had been unloaded b=
=3D
ut
others were still in the kiln, when the woman stopped by . She absolute=
=3D
ly
loved them and wanted to take two home , return the next day to pick up =
=3D
the
others and pay the balance due. The sconces ,BTW came out lovely and the
consistency in color, form, and glaze was exceptionally good. She came b=
=3D
ack
the next day with her husband and began to inspect the sconces, holding
them, literally, 2 inches from her eyeballs, complaining that she saw a s=
=3D
pot
here, an uneven surface there , and that they were unacceptable. She
insisted i do them all over again. I knew they were of good quality , an=
=3D
d
were not substandard work . I said so very gently but firmly .She flew of=
=3D
f
the handle at me saying she wasn't happy with them. Literally threw a
tantrum. In exasperation I did something I probably should not have done,=
=3D
I
told her I would not redo or refire any of them, but if she would return=3D=
20=3D

the two she had taken home ,I would return their deposit to them as I d=
=3D
id
not believe there was anything I could do to make her happy. They left in=
=3D
a
huff. the next morning the husband drove up , paid me ,and took the rest =
=3D
of
the sconces .

the third had to do with a fireplace i did last year, where i was provid=
=3D
ing
tile to restore an existing historical fireplace. I was providing about 7=
=3D
0 %
of the tile. always a bit of a nervewracker for me, as my tile has to go
side by side with the old stuff, but it does pay alright and i do it for =
=3D
the
sense of keeping these lovely fireplaces intact and alive.. I had to repl=
=3D
ace
some rather complex molding as well as field tile. the saving grace is th=
=3D
at
in the new layout, you mingle the new with the old and the variety creat=
=3D
es
a very lovely harmony. . Colorwise it is tough because these old tiles h=
=3D
ave
been darkened by smoke, dirt and wax so they don't look anything like the=
=3D
y
looked when they were fresh out of the kiln 100 years ago. I had nailed t=
=3D
he
complex molding with regard to shrinkage so it was a pretty perfect match=
=3D

sizewize. fortunately this style is an eclectic mix to begin with and I h=
=3D
ad
a good variety of color and value to tie it all together. The tilesetter=
=3D

was the one who contracted with me to do the job, so I had not dealt
personally with the customers prior to this meeting.=3D20
Customer came in ,saw ONE of my tiles laying next to ONE of the old til=
=3D
es
and saw they were not an exact match (of course they weren't, no two til=
=3D
es
in the entire fireplace were an exact match). I explained to them the nat=
=3D
ure
of the tile to no avail. Customer got extremely nasty, shrieking at me
,calling me a fake, saying how dare I call myself an artist. They forbid =
=3D
the
tilesetter from starting work. the tilesetter and I had to hold our groun=
=3D
d
for over 2 hours with them, just to allow them to let him do his job and =
=3D
set
the tile and assure them it would be alright. Finally Pops did the rig=
=3D
ht
thing and got them out of the house , . thank goodness i was there ,
actually, as the tilesetter was in a real bind. .
Tilesetters and people who work in customer's homes REALLY have their wor=
=3D
k
cut out for them.=3D20
It turned out to be one of the more lovely and historically accurate
fireplaces I have done and one of the ones he is most proud of. the
customers never ever even sent note of apology for their abyssmal behavi=
=3D
or.=3D20=3D20
thankfully this sort of thing is the exception rather than the rule, and =
=3D
i
try to ferret out the occasional extreme, (note I said extreme),
perfectionist and either steer them elsewhere or bill accordingly.
sometimes, though, no amount of money is enough.
Bill B. tells me i need to double what I charge anyway. :)

Stephani Stephenson

Steve Mills on sun 26 aug 12

Your friend is obviously an Acolyte to "St Araldite the Rapid" as most of u=
s=3D
are over here!

Steve M


Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my iPod


On 26 Aug 2012, at 14:46, James Freeman wrot=
e=3D
:

> I have a friend, in fact she is the person who got me started in ceramics=
,=3D

> who tells people that she has an MFA in Epoxy. Everything she made in gr=
a=3D
d
> school ended up being glued together for one reason or another. She alwa=
y=3D
s
> tries to get her students to embrace the flaws in their work. Her favori=
t=3D
e
> saying when looking at problems in her Ceramics classes is "Japanese peop=
l=3D
e
> love that kind of stuff". She has literally pulled my work out of the
> trash and added it to her collection. That's when I learned to hit thing=
s=3D

> with a hammer before throwing them away.
>=3D20
> Ten minutes ago I took a piece out of the kiln. It is an Industrialware
> amphora. It's about 15" high, and I have a good 15 hours or so into the
> piece, more if you count time spent sketching, designing, calculating
> angles and intersections, and making patterns. After all that work it ca=
m=3D
e
> out with three tiny flaws. Though these are things no one would ever see
> unless I pointed them out, and even if seen, would likely be viewed as
> simply part of the piece, I view it as a failure. I decided the piece
> would not be for sale, and might get the hammer.
>=3D20
> Five minutes ago I brought the piece into the house and set it on the
> counter. My wife, who knew I had been struggling with the piece, saw it
> for the first time and said "It's beautiful! It came out perfect!" I to=
l=3D
d
> her it was junk, and showed her the flaws. She replied, "That's just par=
t=3D

> of the piece. They are supposed to look like they are old and industrial=
.=3D

> It's beautiful." This from a woman whose own art quilts are always
> flawless!
>=3D20
> I am sure she is right (she usually is!), but I am in a quandary. Mel, I
> respect your advice to let the customer decide, but in my mind, if I sold
> the piece I would always feel guilty, like I ripped off the customer, too=
k=3D

> advantage of their ignorance of what I consider to be flaws. Not sure ho=
w=3D

> to get past that feeling, or if I even should. The solo exhibition the
> piece is supposed to be for opens on Monday (Defiance College art gallery=
,=3D

> Defiance, Ohio, if anyone has absolutely nothing better to do). "To be, =
o=3D
r
> not to be..."
>=3D20
> Photo of the piece here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/7863818034/in/photostream
>=3D20
> All the best.
>=3D20
> ...James
>=3D20
> James Freeman
>=3D20
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>=3D20
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources

veenaraghavan@cs.com on sun 26 aug 12

Hi James,

I know you were asking for Mel's opinion, but I could not help but give you=
=3D
mine! I think the piece is beautiful, certainly not for the hammer. Please=
=3D
listen to your wife, a perfectionist, as you say. The piece is lovely, and=
=3D
I do not think you would be ripping anyone off by letting them purchase it=
=3D
.

All the best.

Veena

I am sure she is right (she usually is!), but I am in a quandary. Mel, I
respect your advice to let the customer decide, but in my mind, if I sold
the piece I would always feel guilty, like I ripped off the customer, took
advantage of their ignorance of what I consider to be flaws. Not sure how
to get past that feeling, or if I even should. The solo exhibition the
piece is supposed to be for opens on Monday (Defiance College art gallery,
Defiance, Ohio, if anyone has absolutely nothing better to do). "To be, or
not to be..."

Photo of the piece here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/7863818034/in/photostream

All the best.

...James

James Freeman



veenaraghavan@cs.com


-----Original Message-----
From: James Freeman
To: Clayart
Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 11:42 am
Subject: Re: perfection


I have a friend, in fact she is the person who got me started in ceramics,
who tells people that she has an MFA in Epoxy. Everything she made in grad
school ended up being glued together for one reason or another. She always
tries to get her students to embrace the flaws in their work. Her favorite
saying when looking at problems in her Ceramics classes is "Japanese people
love that kind of stuff". She has literally pulled my work out of the
trash and added it to her collection. That's when I learned to hit things
with a hammer before throwing them away.

Ten minutes ago I took a piece out of the kiln. It is an Industrialware
amphora. It's about 15" high, and I have a good 15 hours or so into the
piece, more if you count time spent sketching, designing, calculating
angles and intersections, and making patterns. After all that work it came
out with three tiny flaws. Though these are things no one would ever see
unless I pointed them out, and even if seen, would likely be viewed as
simply part of the piece, I view it as a failure. I decided the piece
would not be for sale, and might get the hammer.

Five minutes ago I brought the piece into the house and set it on the
counter. My wife, who knew I had been struggling with the piece, saw it
for the first time and said "It's beautiful! It came out perfect!" I told
her it was junk, and showed her the flaws. She replied, "That's just part
of the piece. They are supposed to look like they are old and industrial.
It's beautiful." This from a woman whose own art quilts are always
flawless!

I am sure she is right (she usually is!), but I am in a quandary. Mel, I
respect your advice to let the customer decide, but in my mind, if I sold
the piece I would always feel guilty, like I ripped off the customer, took
advantage of their ignorance of what I consider to be flaws. Not sure how
to get past that feeling, or if I even should. The solo exhibition the
piece is supposed to be for opens on Monday (Defiance College art gallery,
Defiance, Ohio, if anyone has absolutely nothing better to do). "To be, or
not to be..."

Photo of the piece here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/7863818034/in/photostream

All the best.

...James

James Freeman

"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources

=3D20

revivalsteph@yahoo.com on sun 26 aug 12

If you want to see the fireplace I was talking about in the previous post=
=3D
=3D20
it is here, second one down on the right. Paul Walker was the tilesetter.=
=3D

http://www.revivaltileworks.com/arport.html

with regard to the struggle James talks about, yes, that is a struggle we=
=3D

all face when we present our work to the customer or the world or ourselv=
=3D
es.
We do know every flaw in our work.sometimes we do have to let it sit a
bit, before we can see it objectively.We all have different parameters,=3D2=
0=3D

processes, expectations, psyches which determine how we do it, what poi=
=3D
nt
we let it go , and how long it takes us to resolve our feelings about it.=
=3D


Of course we ALL celebrate when pieces do come out just 'perfect',
whatever that means , but there is no failing in work that is simply well=
=3D

done. If you look at some of the most celebrated work there is ,you will
find flaws. thank goodness. and if you do see a work of perfection you mu=
=3D
st
realize that does not mean that every work that comes from that artist's
hand is perfection. we have our racers, as Tony says, and we have a lot o=
=3D
f
other work that is well done. love it.

You don't have to be perfect to be worthwhile. that is true for people as=
=3D

well as a lot of other things.

Stephani Stephenson

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 26 aug 12

Well...of course...broadly, it is a matter of ( one's quality of )
'Judgement'.


And, Quality of Judgement ( propertion, parallax, deference to context,
etc ) is hard to define, and, harder ( much harder ) to formalize or
ledgislate.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Snail Scott"

> There's a saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> More relevant to studio practice: what is the
> _appropriate_ level of finish and refinement for
> the object I am making?
>
> Loosely thrown, asymmetrical vessels ought to get
> a suitably loose, informal finish. That doesn't mean
> that the foot ought to be un-level or scratchy, or that
> it's OK for the glaze to have bare patches on food-
> contact surfaces. A Steven Hill mug looks better with
> varied, irregular, drippy glazes than it would with a
> smooth, even, shiny glaze. But that doesn't mean
> that a greater level of irregularity would be better.
> All those overlapping glazes...not random. Would
> the result be better it they were? Big occasional
> splashes of black, or bright red? or rough rims and
> jagged spots on the handles?
>
> A tight, clean-looking object needs an equally
> suitable finish. Can you imagine a James Lovera
> bowl with a Steven Hill glaze job? It would look as
> bad as a Lovera glaze job would on a Hill piece.
>
> A refined, symmetrical, precise object is a lot less
> forgiving than a loose, loppy one, though. The range
> of things that will simply look wrong is higher, and any
> random variations that occur in drying, glazing, firing,
> etc, won't just fit right in; they will truly be flaws. When
> you set out to do work of that nature, you are setting the
> bar high in terms of workmanship and self-judgement.
> More irregularity can be forgiven, even welcomed, in
> less strictly designed work.
>
> When modern architecture hit the scene in the early
> 20th century, a lot of builders thought it would be not
> just stylish but also cheaper than all that Victorian stuff,
> but without the decorative moldings, busy wallpaper,
> etc, every lump in the plaster and wiggle in the framing
> suddenly stood out like a sore thumb. And it looked
> terrible. There was a lot of bad gingerbread Victorian
> too, but somehow it didn't look as nasty, because the
> details got lost in the visual complexity of the general
> effect. More to see =3D harder to focus on the specifics.
>
> Degrees of perfection are relative, and need to be
> appropriate. At some level, even the most meticulous
> work reaches a point of diminishing returns for effort
> expended, but even the loosest work requires a
> standard to be met. Finding the right balance for your
> own work is essential, and there are no universal criteria.
>
> -Snail

Mike Gordon on sun 26 aug 12

All this talk of the "NEW LOOK " got me thinking. I bought a ceramic
cockatoo at the flea market 30 yrs ago. It's the one on the left on Pg.
5 done in the 40's. It was broken & re-glued but for $4.00 I couldn't
resist. I haven't seen the CM but all the airbrushed stuff I see now
reminded me of me Cockatoo & I looked it up. Thanks all , Mike Gordon

http://madduxpottery.com/
http://madduxpottery.com/page5.html

CK Savage on sun 26 aug 12

Hi,

I came into this thread, because I know there are some great potters on
here. I am familiar with one that I consider to be one of the most most
talented and kind people in this industry. Experienced and a mentor, she
has some of the most beautiful work and has always welcomed me. I am
certain, and know, that many of you are excellent people and potters. I
know, because I formed some friendships in a short time before I will
leave. That said, I simply can't understand nor do I wish to, why people
are engaging in so many conversations without "mindfulness" of others
feelings/reactions of those reading. I think to say, "Get thick skinned!"
is not appropriate either. How about we all think about manners instead or
kindness? Isn't this about art, clay, and perhaps teaching it, and
welcoming others into the community? Those guidelines, I think they mean
something...or maybe not!

Perhaps it is thought, "She could have deleted the messages." I did. Being
a hand builder though, I looked at a message on a horrific story of someone
harming their spouse with a mug. The subect was handmade or mass produced
(something like that). There was no way for me to see that coming.
Furthermore to joke about someone's death is beyond what I can handle. My
nephew was brutally murdered this year. This type of discussion actually
has no place in a society period, much less a thread for potters.

I will leave you with two quotes. Sorry for the length, but I have seen
long posts and this is my last one. Thank you for listening. To those that
are my friends, I will see you on the other forums. My health doesn't
permit for this one. Take care.

"Those who are without compassion cannot see what is seen with the eyes of
compassion."
-- Thich Nhat Hanh44anh>,
* The Miracle of Mindfulness45 >

*"One who dervives pleasure from the demise, despair, or misfortune of
others is a person who needs to look inside of themselves to find what went
awry." C.K. Thiruvathukal

Cwiddershins on sun 26 aug 12

What is the point of making things "handmade", when what you are doing by h=
a=3D
nd, can be made "more perfectly" by machine?
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=3DC3=3DB3g ar chul an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn trina ch=
=3DC3=3DA9ile"=3DE2=3D
=3D80=3D94that is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue --sent from my iPod
>=3D20

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 26 aug 12

Hi Lee, all...



Seems to me that it depends...

What do you mean by 'perfect' in this ( albeit, possibly wide ) context?

I almost never see any 'machine made' Ceramics which I would call 'perfect'=
.
They may be 'uniform' from one-to-another, but, usually, that is about it.

Maybe some rare examples do exist, but, none come to mind for me at this
moment...other than some from the 1930s, who's Designer's name(s) escape me=
,
as do who ever the Manufactory was or were, who made them, but, otherwise..=
.

While I have seen many times, examples of Hand Thrown/Trimmed/Glazed etc
Ceramic where, my reaction can or indeed is one of saying to myself
"This...is perfect!"

Other kinds of things, made by co-operating successions of Operatives OF
'Machines' or related process, can or are to my perspecuity, quite often
what I will gladly call 'perfect'. And, these are things which can not
practically be 'Made by Hand', so...



Phil
L v



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwiddershins"


What is the point of making things "handmade", when what you are doing by
hand, can be made "more perfectly" by machine?
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=C3=B3g ar chul an tI=E2EUR"tIr dlainn trina ch=C3=A9ile"=E2E=
UR"that is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue --sent from my iPod
>

Lee on sun 26 aug 12

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Robert Harris w=
=3D
rote:
Like you James, I seek that sort of perfection.
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 8:46 AM, James Freeman wrote:
>
> "Japanese people love that kind of stuff".

This is a good example of why we are so educationally handicapped
about Asian aesthetics. I wrote something about this at my
facebook page:
Look for: Unlocking the mysteries of Japanese culture
https://www.facebook.com/togeika

Des & Jan wrote :

> Some of my machines make things less "perfect' than I can do by hand.

Des an/or Jan,

You can't judge all machines by the primitive tools you
have in your shop.

The new 3D printers can make 3 dimensional objects with
multiple working parts. We can't come near doing that by hand.
If machines can obviously be more accurate and precise,
the real scam is to think you can do the same by hand. As our tools
become more capable, it is more important for us to offer what our
machines can't.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue

revivalsteph@yahoo.com on mon 27 aug 12

I don't like the sound of 'seconds' either. I much prefer the sound of 'e=
=3D
poxy'

James ,these look to be sculptural pieces.=3D20
For crying out loud, fill the little crack and pinhole and incorporate a=
=3D

little tint if you need to and get on with it.

Stephani Stephenson

JRodgers on mon 27 aug 12

This is exactly why I am still working in clay today. When I started
out, I realized I was going to have to make a choice - go down the
artist road which was very crowed in Alaska with lots of starving
artist, or go the production route and sell at a lesser cost, but sell
lots. I could make those few art things and try and sell at very high
prices - but how long was it going to take to get that kind of
recognition if ever. I chose the production route. Never been sorry.
Back then, it was porcelain figurines, now it's pottery. In both arenas
people liked my work, and it was modestly priced, so they weren't scared
off. Still are not. Now I make what I call functional decorative
pottery, modestly priced. Can't keep my shelves stocked. Sell everything
I make.

John Rodgers

On 8/26/2012 8:00 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> there has to be compromise in craft work. or, you pay a huge price.
> if i can make pots in minutes, hundred a day, and my friend makes
> two a day.....what does he have to charge?

Gerholdclay on mon 27 aug 12

If you have any questions about whether it is appropriate to sell a piece y=
o=3D
u have already arrived at your correct answer.

Paul

P.S.- Give it to a friend who will cherish it correctly.

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 26, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Gene Arnold wrote:

> James
>=3D20
> Send that piece to me and I'll hammer it for you in about 50 or 60
> years.
>=3D20
> I agree with your wife sell that puppy!!!
>=3D20
> Gene Arnold
> mudduck@triad.rr.com

Susan Fox Hirschmann on mon 27 aug 12

To take a judgemental student that sees everything as "not perfect" cause t=
=3D
heir work is not quite round, and in 8 weeks, have them so excited about th=
=3D
eir fired pieces to exclaim,
"It's JUST PERFECT!"
is to teach them the beautiful uniqueness of each piece.
As teachers, if each of us can=3DA0 promote a different way of thinking, in=
i=3D
tself,--an appreciation of the uniqueness of each of them and each of their=
=3D
work......=3DA0is an accomplishment!
Susan here in Annandale, Va
where I have many critical, judgemental students, that are learning to stre=
=3D
tch their minds about the value of each of their pieces.
Susan fox hirschmann
www.potteryart.biz
=3DA0
=3DA0

--- On Mon, 8/27/12, Sumi von Dassow wrote:


From: Sumi von Dassow
Subject: Re: perfection
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 12:34 AM


Exactly! I tell my students that all the time when they worry about
something like two mugs not matching.

Sumi
> What is the point of making things "handmade", when what you are doing by=
=3D
hand, can be made "more perfectly" by machine?

James Freeman on mon 27 aug 12

Thank you to all who contacted me, on list, off list, and through Flickr.
I appreciate the input, and am flattered by the very kind comments about
the piece. My wife also appreciates that almost everyone agreed with her!
I still tend, however, to agree with Paul G, that if I am uncomfortable
with the thought of selling the piece, I already have my answer. As I told
him off list, if I am going to sell my soul, it will be for a lot more than
a few hundred dollars.

I've posted a detail photo of the piece to show two of the three defects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/ . There is a fine blue
line on the seam on the upper left, just below the flange. It is some kind
of flaw between the underlying cone 6 glaze and the low fire crawl glaze I
sprayed over the top (supposed to look like an old and failing paint job).
While it isn't a crack, or at least not an open one, it looks like one.
The other flaw is visible about three inches down from the bolt in the
flange, about an inch to the left of the handle. It appears to be a
partially healed pinhole in the underlying glaze that then filled with the
crawl glaze, forming a tiny white dot. It is an "eye magnet" to me, and is
all I can see when I look at the piece. The third defect is similar to the
first, but on another part of the piece.

Odd, I suppose, that I dislike a piece that is supposed to look old and
beat up because it is imperfectly old and beat up! As some have advised, I
have decided to show the piece, but mark it NFS. After the show I will
decide what to do. This is an academic show anyway, not a commercial one.
My experience has been that pieces tend not to sell at academic shows, at
least around here, so it probably doesn't even matter how I mark the
piece! Thanks for the input. I think this has been a good topic of
conversation.

There is also a photo on the Flickr page of a new piece, a derivative of my
Industrial series, but taking a new direction. It is a bust (actually more
of a Darwinian "specimen") based on Talos, the bronze warrior robot from
Greek mythology (the Argonauts). See, Diana P? It's not a vessel! Thanks
for the prodding, even though you don't remember it!

All the best.

...James

James Freeman

"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources

John Baymore on mon 27 aug 12

-----------------------snip--------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:46:30 -0400
From: James Freeman
Subject: Re: perfection

>>>>> ...........but in my mind, if I sold the piece I would always feel gu=
=3D
ilty, like I ripped off the customer, took advantage of their ignorance of =
=3D
what I consider to be flaws. <<<<<<<
----------------------------clip--------------------------------------

There's your asnswer. =3D20

best,

.......................john


John Baymore

=3DE3=3D82=3DB8=3DE3=3D83=3DA7=3DE3=3D83=3DB3=3DE3=3D80=3D80=3DE3=3D83=3D99=
=3DE3=3D83=3DBC=3DE3=3D83=3DA2=3DE3=3D82=3DA2
adjunct professor of ceramics


=3DE7=3DBE=3D8E=3DE8=3DA1=3D93=3DE9=3D99=3DB6=3DE5=3D99=3DA8=3DE3=3D81=3DAE=
=3DE9=3D9D=3D9E=3DE5=3DB8=3DB8=3DE5=3D8B=3DA4=3DE6=3D
=3D95=3D99=3DE6=3D8E=3D88

=3D20
New Hampshire Institute of Art
=3D20

President; Potters Council of the American Ceramic Society

=3D20
River Bend Pottery
Wilton, NH USA
=3D20
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
http://www.nhia.edu/new-facultypage-5/
=3D20
=3D20

John Baymore on mon 27 aug 12

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:10 -0400
From: Robert Harris
Subject: Re: perfection

------------------------------------snip------------------------------
,Difficult to know what to do ....

-----------------------------------clip--------------------------------

Have high standards for your craftsmanship and then charge the appropriate =
=3D
price for those standards and that level of care and attention to detail. =
=3D
If that results in making what many would consider "expensive" work... then=
=3D
so be it. =3D20

Compared to a Kia, a Lotus is "expensive". Do you wish to be making Kias o=
=3D
r Lotuses?

You can make 10 pieces for $10 or one piece for $100. Which do you want to=
=3D
do?

It is a personal decision about standards and intent.
=3D20
best,

...........................john


John Baymore

=3DE3=3D82=3DB8=3DE3=3D83=3DA7=3DE3=3D83=3DB3=3DE3=3D80=3D80=3DE3=3D83=3D99=
=3DE3=3D83=3DBC=3DE3=3D83=3DA2=3DE3=3D82=3DA2
adjunct professor of ceramics


=3DE7=3DBE=3D8E=3DE8=3DA1=3D93=3DE9=3D99=3DB6=3DE5=3D99=3DA8=3DE3=3D81=3DAE=
=3DE9=3D9D=3D9E=3DE5=3DB8=3DB8=3DE5=3D8B=3DA4=3DE6=3D
=3D95=3D99=3DE6=3D8E=3D88

=3D20
New Hampshire Institute of Art
=3D20

President; Potters Council of the American Ceramic Society

=3D20
River Bend Pottery
Wilton, NH USA
=3D20
http://www.JohnBaymore.com
http://www.nhia.edu/new-facultypage-5/
=3D20
=3D20

Elisabeth Maurland on mon 27 aug 12

Yes, but you can put all the care, craftsmanship, and attention to =3D
detail in the world into a piece, only to have it come out with a tiny =3D
crack. And it's otherwise the best of the bunch, and the one you've put =3D
the most effort into. Is it then a Kia or a Lotus (I've never heard of a =
=3D
Lotus, by the way)? Do you sell it, and at what price?=3D20

Some friends of mine used to sell their slightly flawed pieces as =3D
"seconds" at shows. The seconds had taken just as much time to do as the =
=3D
others, but they didn't make it through the firing process as well as =3D
they should have. A customer was so pleased with the low prices that he =3D
asked if they could make him some
more seconds.

Elisabeth=3D20
www.elisabethmaurland.com






On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:00 PM, John Baymore wrote:

> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:10 -0400
> From: Robert Harris
> Subject: Re: perfection
>=3D20
> ------------------------------------snip------------------------------
> ,Difficult to know what to do ....
>=3D20
> =3D
-----------------------------------clip--------------------------------
>=3D20
> Have high standards for your craftsmanship and then charge the =3D
appropriate price for those standards and that level of care and =3D
attention to detail. If that results in making what many would consider =
=3D
"expensive" work... then so be it. =3D20
>=3D20
> Compared to a Kia, a Lotus is "expensive". Do you wish to be making =3D
Kias or Lotuses?
>=3D20
> You can make 10 pieces for $10 or one piece for $100. Which do you =3D
want to do?
>=3D20
> It is a personal decision about standards and intent.
>=3D20
> best,
>=3D20
> ...........................john
>=3D20
>=3D20
> John Baymore
>=3D20
> =3DE3=3D82=3DB8=3DE3=3D83=3DA7=3DE3=3D83=3DB3=3DE3=3D80=3D80=3DE3=3D83=3D=
99=3DE3=3D83=3DBC=3DE3=3D83=3DA2=3DE3=3D82=3DA2=3D

> adjunct professor of ceramics
>=3D20
>=3D20
> =3DE7=3DBE=3D8E=3DE8=3DA1=3D93=3DE9=3D99=3DB6=3DE5=3D99=3DA8=3DE3=3D81=3D=
AE=3DE9=3D9D=3D9E=3DE5=3DB8=3DB8=3DE5=3D8B=3DA4=3D
=3DE6=3D95=3D99=3DE6=3D8E=3D88
>=3D20
>=3D20
> New Hampshire Institute of Art
>=3D20
>=3D20
> President; Potters Council of the American Ceramic Society
>=3D20
>=3D20
> River Bend Pottery
> Wilton, NH USA
>=3D20
> http://www.JohnBaymore.com
> http://www.nhia.edu/new-facultypage-5/
>=3D20
>=3D20

Ellen and Tom on mon 27 aug 12

What it is with us potters? We seem to want everyone to see
perfection the same, and all pottery in some kind of hierarchy
from awful to perfect. It won't ever happen. If one can't
decide which is "perfect" amongst our own last firing, how can
we begin to perfectly judge what is perfect and not perfect in
all the thousands of real pots or images of pots made
throughout history and being made today. Of course, some are
good and some are bad. Of course, we like some forms
of pottery better than others. Of course, trends and fashions
change (the economy and the changing curriculum in schools
probably has a lot to do with the surge in lowfire, purchased
clay and glaze).


I tend to think that we are a bit like baby geese. We have
imprinted on our beings the first clay we saw or were excited
by, and the first teacher who told us how it should be made.
It is possible to study and practice, and learn to appreciate
other forms of clay objects, but most likely that we will
continue to cherish our first loves. I too, find much of the
current promoted clay work in the magazines uninteresting:
too contrived, too pastel, too fussy. and mostly useless.
I can't forget the wonderful, strong, useful pots I saw in the
magazines and shows in the 70's and 80's. I also recognize
that the magazines can only print what is sent in to them.


Alas! I have become an Old Potter. I will be 80 in a couple
of months. I don't like a lot of what the new young things
are doing and making, but that is how life happens. I will
just continue to make what I want to make, and be grateful
that I still can lift a pug of clay and load a kiln, and that
my local, faithful customers still want to buy what I make.
My work has evolved over the years but the basic core
remains the same. Gas fired stoneware pottery for the
kitchen, dining and flowers. None of it is perfect but once
in awhile I get a little glimpse of "near" perfection. Enough
to keep me moving on.


Ellen Currans
Dundee, Oregon












=3D20
=3D20

J Lee on mon 27 aug 12

Hey Phil,=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AThe reason I placed quotes around "machine made" wa=
s to i=3D
ndicate that=3D0Athe expression may or may not be a sound one by artistic s=
ta=3D
ndards.=3D0AFortunately, I'm a craftsperson and out of my element somewhat =
wh=3D
en it=3D0Acomes to discussing "art" with those who exude ART from their ver=
y =3D
pores.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AFor me, "machine made" meant some device was used=3DA0=
other th=3D
an commonly=3D0Aemployed pot-throwing or hand-building implements. Although=
=3D
=3D0Amy bowl=3DA0in my kitchen looks very much like=3DA0a one-of-a-kind,=3D=
A0 on a=3D
=3D0Astore shelf=3DA0surrounded by dozens of others identically glazed even=
to =3D
a=3D0Asmudge on one of the flowers and=3DA0a couple of small glaze runs int=
o th=3D
e foot,=3D0Ato me=3DA0 ... it seems less than "genuine"... as in "not an or=
igin=3D
al." Of course,=3D0Athe price tag as well as its placement in a supermarket=
m=3D
ight suggest=3D0Athe same.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AI hasten to=3D0Aadd that neither t=
he smudge =3D
nor the runs would=3DA0necessarily be a negative=3D0Afor me on the original=
=3D0Ab=3D
owl.=3DA0 On my own work sometimes I'm bothered by such unintended happy=3D=
0Aac=3D
cidents,=3D0Abut most of the time I feel they enhance my work to the point =
th=3D
at I have=3D0Aconsidered deliberately/accidentally making them part of my d=
es=3D
ign.=3DA0 I know,=3D0AI know "NOW is THAT authentic????" Yes or no, it does=
n't =3D
matter because=3D0Athe deliberate act never works the same for me. (I like =
to=3D
think that though=3D0AI may have the Seeds of Deceit in my DNA, I resist e=
nc=3D
ouraging them. Can't=3D0Ahelp=3DA0 DNA, but am responsible for my actions n=
ever=3D
theless......)=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AOne of the reasons we like you, Phil sweetie, =
is bec=3D
ause you are positively=3D0Aauthentic in all that you do.... as in, can't b=
e =3D
duplicated... takes a lifetime.....=3D0Ano village required........=3D0A=3D=
A0=3D0AJ=3D
oyce=3D0AIn the Mojave Desert of California where Mojo is trembling terribl=
y =3D
(or=3D0Ashould that be Very Well since she is a champion trembler?), forget=
ti=3D
ng=3D0Athat she's almost eleven and a Big Girl Doggie as she jumps into my=
=3DA0=3D
lap=3D0Abecause the plane=3D0Aoverhead sounds so much like thunder.... must=
fin=3D
d her thundershirt for=3D0Awhich I paid $45.00.=3DA0 Embarrassing but it=3D=
A0WAS =3D
made in America.=3DA0 Oddly=3D0Aenough, it does work.=3DA0 Three year old J=
ack go=3D
es into the next room so=3D0Athat he's not witness to such shenanigans.....=
..=3D
..=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0Hi Joyce,=3D0A=3D0A=3D0ABy what process was this Bowl=
'Made ( and d=3D
ecorated? ) by Machine'?=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0APhil=3D0AL v

Jeff Brown on mon 27 aug 12

>From: Robert Harris
>Subject: Re: perfection
>
>------------------------------------snip------------------------------
>,Difficult to know what to do ....
>
>-----------------------------------clip--------------------------------
John Baymore wrote:
>
>Have high standards for your craftsmanship and then charge the appropria=
=3D
te=3D20
price for those standards and that level of care and attention to detail.=
=3D
If that=3D20
results in making what many would consider "expensive" work... then so be=
=3D
it.=3D20=3D20
>
>Compared to a Kia, a Lotus is "expensive". Do you wish to be making Kia=
=3D
s or=3D20
Lotuses?
>
>You can make 10 pieces for $10 or one piece for $100. Which do you want=
=3D
to=3D20
do?
>
>It is a personal decision about standards and intent.
>=3D20
>best,

>John Baymore




I have worked with potters that will say, " I'd rather sell ten $10 pots =
=3D
than one=3D20
$100 pot, cause I just want to keep selling pots" ...?=3D20
...must be more about busy-ness, than business to those potters.

...I don't mind selling five $50 pots in the same amount of time.
I consider that ...splitting the difference

Jeff
www.jeffbrownpottery.com

J Lee on mon 27 aug 12

Dear Phil,

Read Stephanie's post. I could not grab "mass prod=3D

=3D0A=3D0ADear Phil,=3D0A=3D0ARead Stephanie's post.=3DA0 I could not grab =
"mass prod=3D
uced" etc from my feeble=3D0Aread-to-4 a.m.-got- up- at- 7 aging brain.=3DA=
0 St=3D
eph did, however, since her brain=3D0Ais much younger and always quicker th=
an=3D
mine.=3DA0 Thank you, S.=3D0A=3D0AAnd I am talking about majolica!=3DA0 Wh=
at a rel=3D
ief....... thanks again, S.=3DA0 Funny,=3D0Athere are days when I can easil=
y re=3D
call expressions in Russian, Greek and=3D0ASpanish about which I no longer =
ca=3D
re much... but not majolica which I adore.=3D0A(I'm coming back as LInda Ar=
bu=3D
ckle... if I can just remember to tell those=3D0Ain charge.... maybe they'l=
l =3D
write her name in a Big Book or on an IPad in case=3D0Athey're forgetful to=
o =3D
by the time I get through here....)=3D0A=3D0AI think that's enough for toda=
y...=3D
.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AJoyce (Mom, GMom, GG Mom, Aunt, Sis) still hanging out in t=
he Moj=3D
ave.

Frances Howard on mon 27 aug 12

I'm not all that happy with "seconds". How about "as is"?
Frances H

-----Original Message-----=3D20
=3D46rom: Elisabeth Maurland
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:59 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: perfection

Yes, but you can put all the care, craftsmanship, and attention to de=3D
tail in=3D20
the world into a piece, only to have it come out with a tiny crack. A=3D
nd it's=3D20
otherwise the best of the bunch, and the one you've put the most effo=3D
rt=3D20
into. Is it then a Kia or a Lotus (I've never heard of a Lotus, by th=3D
e way)?=3D20
Do you sell it, and at what price?

Some friends of mine used to sell their slightly flawed pieces as "se=3D
conds"=3D20
at shows. The seconds had taken just as much time to do as the others=3D
, but=3D20
they didn't make it through the firing process as well as they should=3D
have.=3D20
A customer was so pleased with the low prices that he asked if they c=3D
ould=3D20
make him some
more seconds.

Elisabeth
www.elisabethmaurland.com






On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:00 PM, John Baymore wrote:

> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:10 -0400
> From: Robert Harris
> Subject: Re: perfection
>
> ------------------------------------snip---------------------------=3D
---
> ,Difficult to know what to do ....
>
> -----------------------------------clip----------------------------=3D
----
>
> Have high standards for your craftsmanship and then charge the appr=3D
opriate=3D20
> price for those standards and that level of care and attention to d=3D
etail.=3D20
> If that results in making what many would consider "expensive" work=3D
...=3D20
> then so be it.
>
> Compared to a Kia, a Lotus is "expensive". Do you wish to be makin=3D
g Kias=3D20
> or Lotuses?
>
> You can make 10 pieces for $10 or one piece for $100. Which do you=3D
want=3D20
> to do?
>
> It is a personal decision about standards and intent.
>
> best,
>
> ...........................john
>
>
> John Baymore
>
> =3DE3=3D82=3DB8=3DE3=3D83=3DA7=3DE3=3D83=3DB3 =3DE3=3D83=3D99=3DE3=3D83=
=3DBC=3DE3=3D83=3DA2=3DE3=3D82=3DA2
> adjunct professor of ceramics
>
>
> =3DE7=3DBE=3D8E=3DE8=3DA1=3D93=3DE9=3D99=3DB6=3DE5=3D99=3DA8=3DE3=3D81=3D=
AE=3DE9=3D9D=3D9E=3DE5=3DB8=3DB8=3D
=3DE5=3D8B=3DA4=3DE6=3D95=3D99=3DE6=3D8E=3D88
>
>
> New Hampshire Institute of Art
>
>
> President; Potters Council of the American Ceramic Society
>
>
> River Bend Pottery
> Wilton, NH USA
>
> http://www.JohnBaymore.com
> http://www.nhia.edu/new-facultypage-5/
>
>


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5227 - Release Date: 08/2=3D
7/12

Vince Pitelka on mon 27 aug 12

Hi James -
This is off list. Where is the detail shot you speak of. I clicked on the
link you provided, and do not find any such image.
- Vince

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of James Freeman
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 8:35 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: perfection

Thank you to all who contacted me, on list, off list, and through Flickr.
I appreciate the input, and am flattered by the very kind comments about th=
e
piece. My wife also appreciates that almost everyone agreed with her!
I still tend, however, to agree with Paul G, that if I am uncomfortable wit=
h
the thought of selling the piece, I already have my answer. As I told him
off list, if I am going to sell my soul, it will be for a lot more than a
few hundred dollars.

I've posted a detail photo of the piece to show two of the three defects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/ . There is a fine blue
line on the seam on the upper left, just below the flange. It is some kind
of flaw between the underlying cone 6 glaze and the low fire crawl glaze I
sprayed over the top (supposed to look like an old and failing paint job).
While it isn't a crack, or at least not an open one, it looks like one.
The other flaw is visible about three inches down from the bolt in the
flange, about an inch to the left of the handle. It appears to be a
partially healed pinhole in the underlying glaze that then filled with the
crawl glaze, forming a tiny white dot. It is an "eye magnet" to me, and is
all I can see when I look at the piece. The third defect is similar to the
first, but on another part of the piece.

Odd, I suppose, that I dislike a piece that is supposed to look old and bea=
t
up because it is imperfectly old and beat up! As some have advised, I have
decided to show the piece, but mark it NFS. After the show I will decide
what to do. This is an academic show anyway, not a commercial one.
My experience has been that pieces tend not to sell at academic shows, at
least around here, so it probably doesn't even matter how I mark the piece!
Thanks for the input. I think this has been a good topic of conversation.

There is also a photo on the Flickr page of a new piece, a derivative of my
Industrial series, but taking a new direction. It is a bust (actually more
of a Darwinian "specimen") based on Talos, the bronze warrior robot from
Greek mythology (the Argonauts). See, Diana P? It's not a vessel! Thanks
for the prodding, even though you don't remember it!

All the best.

...James

James Freeman

"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources

Des & Jan Howard on mon 27 aug 12

Lee
Some of my machines make things less "perfect' than I
can do by hand. I have to correct along the line.
We never use the overused & ill-used expressions
"hand made", "hand crafted" or "hand decorated".
To us they rhyme with "scam".
Des

On 27/08/2012 6:25 AM, Cwiddershins wrote:
> What is the point of making things "handmade",
> when what you are doing by hand, can be made
> "more perfectly" by machine?

--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850

02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624