hitting kids

updated sat 6 oct 01

Earl Brunner on tue 2 oct 01

Oh, I agree with you. At least basically. I would slap a hand to keep it
out of flame and I might paddle to keep a children from running in the
street. In general terms what you say is true and I agree. I seldom
hit my children when they were growing up and when I did I probably
shouldn't have.

The problem from my perspective as a public school teacher in elementary
school is that consequences are seldom if ever consistent, and in the
lower grades teachers have so few options. (not to infer that hitting
should be an option). It's just that with main streaming, and large
class size, you only have to have two or three children with behavior
problems in a room of 30 or so to drive learning right out the door. We
are supposed to have class size reduction in affect in our school
district. First and second grades are supposed to have student teacher
ratios of 15-18 students per teacher. What that REALLY means is that
there are as many as 38 first graders in one room with two teachers.
Call that anything you want, but don't call it class size reduction.
It's not so much that I (we) think you should hit, JUST DO SOMETHING.

primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM wrote:

> Much as I hate to appoint myself ambassador of kid-topics, I have to chime in on the corporal punishment thread.
>
> In my experience, there is no reason to hit a child, short of lack of imagination and/or maturity on the part of the adult. As a former teacher and a mother of 3 I can say with some conviction that we don't need to lower ourselves to stone age reactions in order to make firm boundaries for children, and enforce them.
>
> We need to never back down on our ultimatums, and need not shout or belittle; just gently, calmly, wield the power we have as adults, every time and without exception, and follow through on our "logical consequences" (previously known as threats) ;0) Steel rules in a velvet voice. Deep breaths. Patience.
>
> People say, "some of these kids come from homes where a good whack in the head is the only thing that gets their attention". To my way of thinking, that's even more reason to teach them the other, more logical ways of working things out. Respectful ways, life skills. (After all, how often are disagreements in, say, the corporate world solved by a punch in the eye?) It would be nice if we could help parents acquire some parenting skills at the same time.
>
> I will not claim that my children have never had a swat on the bottom -- mostly as an exclamation point, for very small children doing something dangerous -- but I am wary of telling anyone, anywhere, that it is OK to hit a child. While YOU may be level headed and never lose your temper, there are adults out there who will strike out in anger at anything handy; those with addictions and emotional problems; those whose parenting is so ineffectual that children run wild in a (frightening) world without boundaries. Those parents resort to violence, but it often escalates as its effectiveness wears off.
>
> I understand how one might react without thinking if hit in "the privates", and I wouldn't pass judgement... but would caution against attaching a grown-up agenda to a child's misbehavior -- which is often a poorly controlled impulse.
>
> Maybe it's a touchy spot for me lately. Last sunday at the Unitarian church I heard a little boy, trying to grasp the attacks of 9-11, asked his mom, "you mean bad guys are REAL?" I had spent the morning with a freind's 9 month old foster child who was covered with cigarette burns, and I hurried out of the room to cry when I heard that question. I guess we are all too aware these days that bad guys are real.
>
> With children misbehaving or terrorists killing thousands, people act as if there are only two choices: peace without any kind of reaction, or striking back in the same way we have been hit. I think -- I hope -- the answer is somewhere between the two. Justice without compromise, to be sure... but not at the expense of the innocent, and not in a way that lowers us to their level.
>
> Gandhi said we must live the example we wish to see in the world. That is never more true than when we are in the eyes of children, who consider us the best example of what humanity is all about.
>
> I am not yet the peaceful being I strive to be, when it comes to the adult world. I go from fear to rage daily, over what has happened and what is to come.
>
> And I pity the fool who would dare lay a hand on one of MY children. They'd soon face wrath of the banshee mother-from-hell, and I'm a formidable foe... german stone-cutter ancestry on one side and irish potato-diggers on the other left me a muscle-bound peasant build which has not been diminished by days of slamming around big hunks of clay... the irish side of the family lays claim to my temper, as well...
>
> ok, I'm putting the soapbox away.
>
> Yours, Kelly in Ohio (the ever predictable, long-winded primalmommy.)
>

--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM on tue 2 oct 01

Much as I hate to appoint myself ambassador of kid-topics, I have to chime in on the corporal punishment thread.

In my experience, there is no reason to hit a child, short of lack of imagination and/or maturity on the part of the adult. As a former teacher and a mother of 3 I can say with some conviction that we don't need to lower ourselves to stone age reactions in order to make firm boundaries for children, and enforce them.

We need to never back down on our ultimatums, and need not shout or belittle; just gently, calmly, wield the power we have as adults, every time and without exception, and follow through on our "logical consequences" (previously known as threats) ;0) Steel rules in a velvet voice. Deep breaths. Patience.

People say, "some of these kids come from homes where a good whack in the head is the only thing that gets their attention". To my way of thinking, that's even more reason to teach them the other, more logical ways of working things out. Respectful ways, life skills. (After all, how often are disagreements in, say, the corporate world solved by a punch in the eye?) It would be nice if we could help parents acquire some parenting skills at the same time.

I will not claim that my children have never had a swat on the bottom -- mostly as an exclamation point, for very small children doing something dangerous -- but I am wary of telling anyone, anywhere, that it is OK to hit a child. While YOU may be level headed and never lose your temper, there are adults out there who will strike out in anger at anything handy; those with addictions and emotional problems; those whose parenting is so ineffectual that children run wild in a (frightening) world without boundaries. Those parents resort to violence, but it often escalates as its effectiveness wears off.

I understand how one might react without thinking if hit in "the privates", and I wouldn't pass judgement... but would caution against attaching a grown-up agenda to a child's misbehavior -- which is often a poorly controlled impulse.

Maybe it's a touchy spot for me lately. Last sunday at the Unitarian church I heard a little boy, trying to grasp the attacks of 9-11, asked his mom, "you mean bad guys are REAL?" I had spent the morning with a freind's 9 month old foster child who was covered with cigarette burns, and I hurried out of the room to cry when I heard that question. I guess we are all too aware these days that bad guys are real.

With children misbehaving or terrorists killing thousands, people act as if there are only two choices: peace without any kind of reaction, or striking back in the same way we have been hit. I think -- I hope -- the answer is somewhere between the two. Justice without compromise, to be sure... but not at the expense of the innocent, and not in a way that lowers us to their level.

Gandhi said we must live the example we wish to see in the world. That is never more true than when we are in the eyes of children, who consider us the best example of what humanity is all about.

I am not yet the peaceful being I strive to be, when it comes to the adult world. I go from fear to rage daily, over what has happened and what is to come.

And I pity the fool who would dare lay a hand on one of MY children. They'd soon face wrath of the banshee mother-from-hell, and I'm a formidable foe... german stone-cutter ancestry on one side and irish potato-diggers on the other left me a muscle-bound peasant build which has not been diminished by days of slamming around big hunks of clay... the irish side of the family lays claim to my temper, as well...

ok, I'm putting the soapbox away.

Yours, Kelly in Ohio (the ever predictable, long-winded primalmommy.)


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Richard G. Ramirez on wed 3 oct 01

Chris,
Thanks, for your responds.
I'm very interested on how many of us respond to this subject. I teach
hi school ceramics in a inner-city school. Would like to compare my thoughts
with other clayarters. Thanks, "The Clay Stalker", Richard Ramirez
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris clarke"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: hitting kids


> You have valid points but I must say that when my mother was in school,
> catholic school, corporal punishment was allowed. Mind you I don't want
> teachers hitting my kids. But those nuns had a class of sixty and they
were
> silent and behaved. Thursdays they were silent even in the halls. Now
> teachers have only marginal control. And if my kid was going around
kicking
> people I'd have kicked him myself. He deserved it.
>
> We have raised a generation of children we are afraid of, if you can't
> control a four year old how do you expect to when he is fourteen, and
bigger
> then you. I know a woman whose son spray painted the inside of their
house.
> Did he get in trouble? No, he got sent to a counselor for some touchy
feely
> therapy, sorry, too late. He closed him mind and heard not one word. I
> rarely got hit, but I knew it was a possibly.
>
> I don't think you can make a blanket statement covering all kids. What
> works for you may not work for others. This is a dangerous thread that I'm
> not sure how it started, don't remember any hitting kids discussion. So
I'm
> assuming it was the kicking.
>
> Well in the defense of that person I don't think what she did was all that
> bad. My son use to bite me when he was a baby, drew blood several times.
I
> use to draw back when he came at me with those little smiling teeth. So I
> bit him. He never bit me again, he obviously hadn't known it hurt, so I
> showed him. Self defense is what it's called, you just tone it down for a
> child.
>
> chris
>
> temecula, california
> chris@ccpots.com
> www.ccpots.com
>
>
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primalmommy@IVILLAGE.COM on wed 3 oct 01

chris clarke wrote:
"Mind you I don't want
teachers hitting my kids. But those nuns had a class of sixty and they were
silent and behaved"...

So are the inhabitants of most prisons. I'd say maybe there's something wrong with a system where one teacher is in charge of sixty (or even thirty) kids. That's why some of us homeschool. I used to teach school, and I think looking hard at the root of the problem will serve more purpose than beating kids into submission. I have never considered silent passivity to be the same as real learning...

Chris said:

"We have raised a generation of children we are afraid of, if you can't
control a four year old how do you expect to when he is fourteen, and bigger then you."

Which is why I suggested that more help be given parents whose best idea for parenting involved a belt. What good is it to control only the ones that are too little to hit back? Too many parents have neglected to provide any real limits, rules or meaningful discipline for their kids, preferring to be "pals" and assuming school/daycare/whoever will provide the rest. (then blaming the schools when they haven't managed to parent 30 kids at once.)


Chris said:
"I know a woman whose son spray painted the inside of their house.
Did he get in trouble? No, he got sent to a counselor for some touchy feely
therapy, sorry, too late."

So you're saying a good beating would somehow have cured all the years of ineffective parenting that leaves a kid that screwed up? I agree, too late. Obedience out of fear is not the same as some moral sense of right and wrong. My kid would have spent his year's allowance and the next several weeks repainting and repairing the damage. That's what folks call "logical consequences" and it works at 4 or at 14.

"This is a dangerous thread that I'm
not sure how it started, don't remember any hitting kids discussion..."

Maybe my sensors are overly tuned to this topic, but I had seen three posts about hitting/kicking/corporal punishment in the last few days.

"My son use to bite me when he was a baby, drew blood several times. I
use to draw back when he came at me with those little smiling teeth. So I
bit him. He never bit me again, he obviously hadn't known it hurt, so I
showed him"...

I'm sure it's true that tiny babies don't understand they're hurting someone. I have to wonder what a baby learns about trust, though, from an exercise like that. It is my experience that a) few kids get through life surrounded by other kids without learning first hand what a kick/bite/smack feels like, and b) the kids most likely to be violent in school are the ones who are getting that kind of treatment at home and are passing the anger along. Same for kids who are cruel to animals.

As for blanket statements, here's one: I don't believe that any child is born evil. Some kids may have temperaments that clash with their parents, but any parent can learn to draw -- and maintain -- a line without resorting to hitting. Certainly we can control a person through fear and demoralization, but once the threat of punishment is removed, so is the incentive to do the right thing. I taught these kids in elementary, middle school, high school and then college -- and saw a lot of examples.

I respect your right to differ -- but wonder why it's ok for the nuns to hit other people's kids, but not yours...

sincerely, Kelly in Ohio


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chris clarke on thu 4 oct 01

You have valid points but I must say that when my mother was in school,
catholic school, corporal punishment was allowed. Mind you I don't want
teachers hitting my kids. But those nuns had a class of sixty and they were
silent and behaved. Thursdays they were silent even in the halls. Now
teachers have only marginal control. And if my kid was going around kicking
people I'd have kicked him myself. He deserved it.

We have raised a generation of children we are afraid of, if you can't
control a four year old how do you expect to when he is fourteen, and bigger
then you. I know a woman whose son spray painted the inside of their house.
Did he get in trouble? No, he got sent to a counselor for some touchy feely
therapy, sorry, too late. He closed him mind and heard not one word. I
rarely got hit, but I knew it was a possibly.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement covering all kids. What
works for you may not work for others. This is a dangerous thread that I'm
not sure how it started, don't remember any hitting kids discussion. So I'm
assuming it was the kicking.

Well in the defense of that person I don't think what she did was all that
bad. My son use to bite me when he was a baby, drew blood several times. I
use to draw back when he came at me with those little smiling teeth. So I
bit him. He never bit me again, he obviously hadn't known it hurt, so I
showed him. Self defense is what it's called, you just tone it down for a
child.

chris

temecula, california
chris@ccpots.com
www.ccpots.com

chris clarke on fri 5 oct 01

first hand what a kick/bite/smack feels like, and b) the kids most likely to
be violent in school are the ones who are getting that kind of treatment at
home and are passing the anger along. Same for kids who are cruel to
animals.>

Actually my son had no contact with other children when he was a baby, or
baby sitters, so the biting was purely checking out those teeth. New toys
must be used. And weeks of 'No' didn't work, and my trust in him had
shorted up quite a bit, and it worked. He has never bitten anyone else but
me, never been cruel to animals or gotten in fights at school, I wouldn't
tolerate it. No bullshit at school, he can be a spaz at home.

hit other people's kids, but not yours...>

Never said it was okay for nuns to hit kids, just said they had control. I
wouldn't send my kids to catholic school or any other form of religious
school if my life depended on it. But I won't get into my ideas on
religion, it's my bag, not to be shared. And all the years my mother was
there she was struck only once, not beaten into submission. She is not
psycho, although she drives me crazy.

And that kid, that spray painted his home, stands a kicks the krap out of
smaller children, yes, I think a good beating would do him good. But not
from a parent or authority figure. I bigger kid should womp him, he needs
to know sometimes he's the smaller guy.

I wonder however, when we lost control. When I was a child I would have
never acted the way some kids do. And I wouldn't tolerate from my kids.

still a scary thread = )

chris


temecula, california
chris@ccpots.com
www.ccpots.com