Liz Willoughby on thu 18 oct 01
An interesting happened this am. My carbon monoxide detector was
screaming when I went outside. It was in the room next to my kiln
garage. I had fired my kiln on Oct.6. The Bailey door was closed,
the damper open 2 ". Yesterday was very windy. I opened windows,
and the garage door in front of the kiln, and moved the detector into
the kiln garage next to the kiln, reset it and it shot up even
higher, 468. Unplugged it took it to the house, reset it, and it was
"0". Took it outside again and placed it next to the kiln, same
thing happened, it shot up and the alarm went off. Took it back into
the house, tried it again, and it shot up. Phoned my gas man, he
can't understand it, no combustion there. Finally went out and
bought a new cm detector, put it next to the kiln and it is now "0".
The place had had a chance to air out well. The man in the hardware
store said the these detectors do store up cm and it takes a while
dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
Very strange. Liz
Liz Willoughby
RR 1
2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
Grafton, On.
Canada
K0K 2G0
e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
Christena Schafale on thu 18 oct 01
Liz,
I don't know about your particular situation, but I do know that we had a
cm detector that failed by starting to go off for no particular
reason. Fixed it by replacing the cartridge, now it works fine.
Chris
At 12:17 PM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>An interesting happened this am. My carbon monoxide detector was
>screaming when I went outside. It was in the room next to my kiln
>garage. I had fired my kiln on Oct.6. The Bailey door was closed,
>the damper open 2 ". Yesterday was very windy. I opened windows,
>and the garage door in front of the kiln, and moved the detector into
>the kiln garage next to the kiln, reset it and it shot up even
>higher, 468. Unplugged it took it to the house, reset it, and it was
>"0". Took it outside again and placed it next to the kiln, same
>thing happened, it shot up and the alarm went off. Took it back into
>the house, tried it again, and it shot up. Phoned my gas man, he
>can't understand it, no combustion there. Finally went out and
>bought a new cm detector, put it next to the kiln and it is now "0".
>The place had had a chance to air out well. The man in the hardware
>store said the these detectors do store up cm and it takes a while
>dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
>in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
>be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
>somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
>after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
>Very strange. Liz
>Liz Willoughby
>RR 1
>2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
>Grafton, On.
>Canada
>K0K 2G0
>e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Consultation and Referral Specialist
Resources for Seniors
christenas@rfsnc.org
www.resourcesforseniors.com
Phone: (919) 713-1537
FAX: (919) 872-9574
1110 Navaho Dr, Suite 400
Raleigh, NC 27609
Alan D. Scott on thu 18 oct 01
(Speaking as a retired firefighter who has responded to way too many CO
alarms...)
The sensor in the CO detector takes time to respond. As CO levels rise, it
may take 30 minutes to respond to a "low" level (not noticeable to humans
and causing health problems only after a day or more of exposure). When
exposed to a "high" level (fatal to humans in under an hour) it may sound
within a minute.
Once the CO is gone, it takes a LONG time for household sensors to
"recover". Often after a "low" level alert, it will take an hour or so
outside in a light breeze to recover. Once exposed to a "high" level, the
sensor is so saturated that it must be replaced. IMHO, the better household
units have a disposable sensor that will last only a year (even with no CO
alerts). Normal household fuel-burning activities create some CO, albeit
very very low levels. Over a year, even that will saturate a good sensor.
The "professional" CO detectors we carried on our fire trucks cost over $600
each (back in 1990). Even they took a while to recover from a "high"
level...
Now, let's apply this to kilns. Depending on the chemical composition of
your clay body and glazes, there is very likely some organic content (stuff
containing carbon). Even in an electric kiln, though there is no fuel
combustion taking place, the organics burn off during firing. It is my
understanding that an electric kiln fires in a "neutral" atmosphere (i.e.
somewhere between oxidizing and reducing) [that concept was not part of my
fire science training]. Such an atmosphere would likely generate a good
quantity of CO from incomplete combustion of the organics. If your kiln is
in an enclosed space, imagine what the CO levels could be after firing!
Moral of the story... I strongly urge everyone to use a kiln vent or place
their kiln in a detached structure with lots of cross-ventilation. Fire
Science class dismissed.
Alan
(I don't work for any kiln vent maker, nor do I get any compensation for my
opinions...other than the knowledge that I might save a fellow potter from
breathing in nasty kiln emissions.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Liz Willoughby
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 09:18
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: carbon monoxide story
An interesting happened this am. My carbon monoxide detector was
screaming when I went outside. It was in the room next to my kiln
garage. I had fired my kiln on Oct.6. The Bailey door was closed,
the damper open 2 ". Yesterday was very windy. I opened windows,
and the garage door in front of the kiln, and moved the detector into
the kiln garage next to the kiln, reset it and it shot up even
higher, 468. Unplugged it took it to the house, reset it, and it was
"0". Took it outside again and placed it next to the kiln, same
thing happened, it shot up and the alarm went off. Took it back into
the house, tried it again, and it shot up. Phoned my gas man, he
can't understand it, no combustion there. Finally went out and
bought a new cm detector, put it next to the kiln and it is now "0".
The place had had a chance to air out well. The man in the hardware
store said the these detectors do store up cm and it takes a while
dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
Very strange. Liz
Liz Willoughby
RR 1
2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
Grafton, On.
Canada
K0K 2G0
e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Snail Scott on thu 18 oct 01
At 12:17 PM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>the old [carbon monoxide] detector is still going off
>where ever I plug it in.
I had this happen, too. Went off due to what may
have been a legitimate cause, which we fixed (gas
heater). Kept going off constantly thereafter for
no apparent reason. A replacement detector placed
next to it never beeped. I'd love to know why, too.
-Snail
Alan D. Scott on thu 18 oct 01
Chris:
Don't panic. You've got a good detector. Keep replacing the sensor when
needed and keep you and your family safe.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Christena Schafale
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 09:52
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: carbon monoxide story
Liz,
I don't know about your particular situation, but I do know that we had a
cm detector that failed by starting to go off for no particular
reason. Fixed it by replacing the cartridge, now it works fine.
Chris
At 12:17 PM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>An interesting happened this am. My carbon monoxide detector was
>screaming when I went outside. It was in the room next to my kiln
>garage. I had fired my kiln on Oct.6. The Bailey door was closed,
>the damper open 2 ". Yesterday was very windy. I opened windows,
>and the garage door in front of the kiln, and moved the detector into
>the kiln garage next to the kiln, reset it and it shot up even
>higher, 468. Unplugged it took it to the house, reset it, and it was
>"0". Took it outside again and placed it next to the kiln, same
>thing happened, it shot up and the alarm went off. Took it back into
>the house, tried it again, and it shot up. Phoned my gas man, he
>can't understand it, no combustion there. Finally went out and
>bought a new cm detector, put it next to the kiln and it is now "0".
>The place had had a chance to air out well. The man in the hardware
>store said the these detectors do store up cm and it takes a while
>dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
>in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
>be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
>somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
>after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
>Very strange. Liz
>Liz Willoughby
>RR 1
>2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
>Grafton, On.
>Canada
>K0K 2G0
>e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Consultation and Referral Specialist
Resources for Seniors
christenas@rfsnc.org
www.resourcesforseniors.com
Phone: (919) 713-1537
FAX: (919) 872-9574
1110 Navaho Dr, Suite 400
Raleigh, NC 27609
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Earl Brunner on thu 18 oct 01
We had one in the house because we have gas appliances, (heating,
cooking range, clothes dryer, hot water heater) After about two years
the thing started waking us up at night. Gas people checked it out,
nothing. Bought a new one, this one plugs in instead of using
batteries, so far, no problems.
Liz Willoughby wrote:
> An interesting happened this am. My carbon monoxide detector was
> screaming when I went outside. It was in the room next to my kiln
> garage. I had fired my kiln on Oct.6. The Bailey door was closed,
> the damper open 2 ". Yesterday was very windy. I opened windows,
> and the garage door in front of the kiln, and moved the detector into
> the kiln garage next to the kiln, reset it and it shot up even
> higher, 468. Unplugged it took it to the house, reset it, and it was
> "0". Took it outside again and placed it next to the kiln, same
> thing happened, it shot up and the alarm went off. Took it back into
> the house, tried it again, and it shot up. Phoned my gas man, he
> can't understand it, no combustion there. Finally went out and
> bought a new cm detector, put it next to the kiln and it is now "0".
> The place had had a chance to air out well. The man in the hardware
> store said the these detectors do store up cm and it takes a while
> dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
> in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
> be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
> somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
> after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
> Very strange. Liz
> Liz Willoughby
> RR 1
> 2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
> Grafton, On.
> Canada
> K0K 2G0
> e-mail lizwill@phc.igs.net
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
John Baymore on fri 19 oct 01
My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
after all this time? Or do these detectors just eventually give out?
Liz,
Extremely unlikely that a "normal" room could contain a significant parti=
al
pressure of CO (or much of anything) in the air for that kind of time. =
Maybe if it were a pressure vessel of some sort .... but most rooms, even=
VERY well caulked and weatherproofed ones, leak like a seive .
Simply sounds like a failure of the CO detector.
However....... is there another possible CO source in the room that the
detector was in OTHER than the kiln? If so... it could have been THAT. =
Certainly should be thought about. Where's the furnace? Where's the
garage and was a car running? Gas clothes dryer? All that kind of stuff.=
=
(Just trying to cover all the bases .)
The CO detectors that lab folk and gas companies use are QUITE expensive.=
=
The inexpensive "home" carbon monoxide detectors that you buy at the
hardware store are just that...... inexpensive. In accomplishing that
goal, the manufacturers have to utilize components that are less than
"state of the art". In doing so...... the accuracy figures for the
detectors are compromised for the sake of expense of construction. Also
the longevity of the components are traded for expense. So there is some=
room for the device to be in error or to fail from age. =
They are OK for the use we put them to...... as long as you understand th=
e
limitations of the tool.
The "cartridge" that actually does the "detecting" has both a limited
lifetime....and a long recovery period. Both will affect readings. A hi=
gh
level reading will tend to "persist" even though the actual level has bee=
n
reduced. The cartridge has to have time to "clear". Most units allow
replacing the cartridge part.
It is also possible that a voltage spike from the AC power supply "fried"=
the unit's electronics. They should be protected by a computer type surg=
e
protector.
A redundant system is a simple "check and balance" for such problems. Ha=
ve
TWO CO detectors in place spread apart a bit in the room. If only one go=
es
off....... be concerned....but don't assume it is an issue yet. If BOTH =
go
off....... you likely have a problem. You are using one to cross check t=
he
accuracy of the other. For both to "fail" the same way at the same time
(other than from a voltage spike) is highly unlikely.
The digital ppm displays on some detectors imply a precision that really
isn't there. Say, if it reads 85 ppm, that is plus or minus a LARGE
factor. Use it as just a guideline ....... increasing or decreasing....
and an approximate level....under 50, betweek 50 and 100,.... and so on.
I have been told that some can even "false" on high dust levels...... whi=
ch
makes that interesting for a pottery application.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"=
Karen Deasy on fri 19 oct 01
Liz,
>dissipate. The old detector is still going off where ever I plug it
>in. My question is. . . is it possible for carbon monoxide to still
>be in that area where the kiln is after two weeks and the wind
>somehow moved the gas from the inside of the kiln or the chimney
>after all this time? =20
There are several types of Carbon Monoxide Detectors on the market. =
First of all buy yourself a good one (don't but the most inexpensive in =
the store & read the packages, compare), make sure that it can reset =
itself and does not need the internal cartridge replaced after a single =
use. Try to get one that either plugs in or can be hardwired into your =
home electrical system. Mount the detector at your breathing level, NOT =
floor level. (there are some detectors on the market that are single use =
units) There is a fireman in our community who ordered a detector for =
his home, rushed home to install it, (did not read directions) decided =
to test it first by holding it in his cars exhaust, sure enough it went =
off. The detector would not reset, after returning to the store finds =
out that after detection it must be sent back to factory to have the =
cartridge replaced since after it activates it is no longer any good.
Any type of detector can go bad. If your detector is battery operated, =
or has a battery backup make sure the batteries are replaced every six =
months. Carbon Monoxide does build up over time, it may be detecting =
very low levels over an extended period.
Pay careful attention to your kiln next time you fire it, If your old =
detector was sensing a build up of gas over a period of time It could =
mean there is a problem with your ventilation system or flue stack, It =
is also possible that it was sensing exhaust fumes from an auto.
Karen Deasy
Cabot, Vermont
Ron Roy on sun 21 oct 01
I can't see any potter not having a CO detector - Night Hawk - was the one
that consumers repots recommended but that was years ago.
In fact I can't see not having two of them (I have 3) - especially if you
are working in the room with the kiln - or even in the room next to the
kiln. CO travels very well - if you think a shut door is protection - think
again. They are the kind of detection you want to be able to rely on - it
would be almost impossible for two to fail at the same time.
Anyway 3 detectors - one for the furnace room, one for the kiln room and
the third nearby to check out the one in the kiln room.
OK I know it's gonna go nuts as soon as you go into reduction - but at
least you will know when that happens - unplug it and watch the one in the
room next door. All three will disagree - use the most sensitive one for
the area you are working in.
I had spoken to the inspector about coming to check my kiln to have it
passed for installation this last summer. He did not show up - a week late
so I called again - he got busy - 3 CO fatalities in the last week - in the
middle of summer - I asked how that could happen - Old folks - like to keep
warm - have the heat on in the summer - bird builds a nest in the chimney -
no detector cause it's an old house - new houses require a built in system
now.
I have had a number of close calls with CO - I think they should be
standard equipment - and if anyone says electric kilns don't produce CO
they just don't understand what they are talking about.
By the way - if you are using a vent system - best to open a window -
re-supply of air and all that - away from the vent discharge of course.
The way the wind is blowing can affect how effectively it works by the way.
Anyone need any Lady Bugs - we have thousands - everywhere - thousands -
drove 150 miles the other day with one riding my speedometer needle.
Got one on my key board right now - had to wait till it moved to finish this.
RR
This from John Baymore - thanks for this John - good info.
>The CO detectors that lab folk and gas companies use are QUITE expensive.
>The inexpensive "home" carbon monoxide detectors that you buy at the
>hardware store are just that...... inexpensive. In accomplishing that
>goal, the manufacturers have to utilize components that are less than
>"state of the art". In doing so...... the accuracy figures for the
>detectors are compromised for the sake of expense of construction. Also
>the longevity of the components are traded for expense. So there is some
>room for the device to be in error or to fail from age.
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
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