claybair on thu 18 oct 01
Dannon,
I was under the impression that teaching workshops can be pretty lucrative?
Am I wrong?
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Dannon Rhudy
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:33 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: where the money is NOT
A
.... I wanna teach cuz i know that's where the money is.....
Surely you jest! Teaching is NOT where the money is.
If you want to make a living teaching you will have to
teach full time, at high school or college level. You
will not make a fortune. And you'll not have a lot of
time for your own work. There are always compromises.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Dannon Rhudy on thu 18 oct 01
A
.... I wanna teach cuz i know that's where the money is.....
Surely you jest! Teaching is NOT where the money is.
If you want to make a living teaching you will have to
teach full time, at high school or college level. You
will not make a fortune. And you'll not have a lot of
time for your own work. There are always compromises.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Dai Scott on thu 18 oct 01
While teaching does add a modest amount to my annual income, I teach because
I love the interaction with new students, their enthusiasm and daring (they
don't know what clay "can't" do yet), and the thrill they get when their
things come out of the kiln and they take them home to show off/use/give for
gifts, whatever. And I love it when the light goes on and they work out a
problem, become proficient at throwing, or produce wonderful imaginative
handbuilt things; I love the stimulus it gives me to always be
experimenting, inventing, and staying a few steps ahead of them, the
constant search for new projects to broaden their (and my) horizons, the
experimenting with new glazes and glaze techniques not just for myself, but
for their projects. And, most satisfying, when a student gains the skill
and confidence to set up his/her own studio, working on his/her own, and
STILL keeps in contact with me, exchanging news, recipes, ideas. I have
gained so much from having students share my space, and, believe me, the
dollars are way down the list!
Dai in Kelowna, BC
"There is no right way to do the wrong thing."
potterybydai@home.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dannon Rhudy"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:33 AM
Subject: where the money is NOT
> A
>
> .... I wanna teach cuz i know that's where the money is.....
>
> Surely you jest! Teaching is NOT where the money is.
> If you want to make a living teaching you will have to
> teach full time, at high school or college level. You
> will not make a fortune. And you'll not have a lot of
> time for your own work. There are always compromises.
>
> regards
>
> Dannon Rhudy
>
>
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vince pitelka on fri 19 oct 01
> I was under the impression that teaching workshops can be pretty
lucrative?
> Am I wrong?
There are some workshop venues which are adequately budgeted to pay very
good stipends, and there are certainly a lot of superstar workshop
presenters who command very high rates. But standard workshop stipends are
pretty modest. Whether or not you can consider it lucrative depends on what
your standard of living is, and what circumstance you are leaving to go
teach a workshop. For an average workshop stipend, a professional studio
artist can hardly afford to take the time off from studio production to go
teach a workshop, unless he or she thinks of it as a working vacation. As
any professional studio artist knows, it is essential to interject variety
of experience and learning opportunities into studio life, and going off to
teach workshops is an excellent way to accomplish that. Also, many workshop
venues are in very beautiful parts of the country, and well known potters
and sculptors who could command higher stipends elsewhere often return to
those venues every few years to teach workshops, despite low pay.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Dannon Rhudy on fri 19 oct 01
At 10:36 PM 10/18/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dannon,
>
>I was under the impression that teaching workshops can be pretty lucrative?
>Am I wrong?
Gayle, it depends what you mean by "pretty lucrative". AND who
the presenter is. Don Reitz gets a lot of money to give workshops.
Last I knew, $1500/first day, $1000 a day thereafter. He's
worth it, and a few others (very few) get the same.
But most presenters get something more along the line
of plumbers wages - if that. Probably an average of $250 to
$300 a day, for short workshops. Longer ones are often less,
and workshops at places like Hay Creek, Anderson Ranch, etc.,
are a LOT less. There was a big long discussion about this not
too long ago. Take a look at the archives.
Workshops are fun to present (as well as attend), but the
general run of presenters doesn't really do them for the money.
Probably make as much or more staying in the studio and making
work - but it's a nice break from routine, and a chance to
see some new places & faces.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Brad S. Reitz on fri 19 oct 01
CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG writes:
>Gayle, it depends what you mean by "pretty lucrative". AND who
>the presenter is. Don Reitz gets a lot of money to give workshops.
>Last I knew, $1500/first day, $1000 a day thereafter. He's
>worth it, and a few others (very few) get the same.
>But most presenters get something more along the line
>of plumbers wages - if that. Probably an average of $250 to
Don does get quite a bit for workshops but he also taught in Wisconsin for
25 years or so. It was the university that enabled him to develop himself
and support a family. Now he has some pension but selling pots at $50,000
a piece doesn't hurt even when his net from the sale is quite less. I
guess teaching has a role but it is not necessarily where the money is.
Brad Reitz
artimater on sun 21 oct 01
Dannon wrote:
A
.... I wanna teach cuz i know that's where the money is.....
Surely you jest! Teaching is NOT where the money is.
If you want to make a living teaching you will have to
teach full time, at high school or college level. You
will not make a fortune. And you'll not have a lot of
time for your own work. There are always compromises.
You wrote that cause you thought I was gone for good huh?....Well, I was =
only out of town so I had me a good laugh after I quit choking on my Red =
Stripe....Have you ever had beer in your nose?....Anyway it is so great =
that you and so many others teach ceramics for the betterment of =
mankind....But I know a few teachers who actually cash those =
paychecks....Good Golly Miss Molly
Rush
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
http://artimator.com
rush@artimator.com
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/texasceramics
Dannon Rhudy on sun 21 oct 01
>
>You wrote that cause you thought I was gone for good huh?....Well, I was
only out of town so I had me a good laugh after I quit choking on my Red
Stripe....Have you ever had beer in your nose?....Anyway it is so great
that you and so many others teach ceramics for the betterment of mankind.....
Somehow I doubt that you have any idea what PART TIME teachers
make. It is very little indeed. Nonetheless, I hasten to inform
you that I do NOT teach for the betterment of mankind. I teach
because I like to, and it's been a pleasure to make a decent
ceramics program where there was none. And it's been a
further pleasure to design a good facility, and to finagle
the budget to equip it decently if not lavishly. So it's
been worth my time in one way if not another.
I only responded to the initial post because she said "that's
where the money is". I considered that an uninformed view.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
artimater on sun 21 oct 01
Dannon,
I knew you didn't work for gratis...That is why it is a bit =
ludicrous for you to suggest that the money in ceramics is not in =
teaching...Afterall a teaching ceramist has a nice salary and as a group =
they have the galleries attention...Whereas without that teaching job, =
it is next to impossible to get your foot in the door of the better =
galleries....Just go to the next gallery walk here in Dallas and see how =
many names you recognize from various schools......Since galleries never =
look at the work, only the resume, I would say that teaching at a major =
university has a few perks you seem to minimize....
I do believe you were right on about full-time teaching hampering =
an artist development...None of them would admit it though...No way, =
they all like to be thought of as "cutting edge"
The national convention for clay is NCECA where the E stands for =
education....Do doctors go to conventions of "The American Medical =
Instructors Convention"....Do engineers go to the convention of =
"Engineering Educators"....No and No....The whole set up of American =
ceramics is geared toward the creation of more ceramic =
teachers....certainly not the creation of ceramic artists...If not for =
the subsidy of teaching jobs there would be no ceramics left....If I =
went to the convention of full-time ceramic artists I would be there by =
myself.....I know I know, there are those who by hard labor can eke out =
a living in production work, but even they are hampered by the =
stranglehold the educators have on the markets...I quit going to art =
fairs because I got tired of seeing work priced less than the cost of =
production...How can there be so much work offered at such =
prices?....Fat teaching jobs and free facilities, that's how....If there =
was some rule that ceramics had to be sold sans such subsidies it would =
be better for all of us....Of course then ceramists would have to make =
work that had some interest and relevance, instead of the overblown =
vapid crap so often seen in the galleries...Uninformed my butt....sounds =
to me like the original poster was fairly observant and on the right =
track ..
PAX,
Rush
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
http://artimator.com
rush@artimator.com
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/texasceramics
Dannon Rhudy on mon 22 oct 01
> I knew you didn't work for gratis...That is why it is a bit ludicrous
for you to suggest that the money in ceramics is not in teaching...Afterall
a teaching ceramist has a nice salary and as a group they have the
galleries attention...
No, I don't work "gratis". Quite. But, I teach part time, which
means if I had an interest in hamburgers I could make more working
for McDonald's - and they pay benefits. I don't make a living, or
anything approaching it, from teaching. Studio work pays the bills.
As for teaching helping "get one's foot in the door"
of "better" galleries - I don't think so. But since most
ceramists don't make a living from gallery sales anyway,
no matter who they are or how "hot" the gallery is, it's a
moot point. Teaching at a "major University" has some
perks, of course. I don't minimize that. Wasn't even
TALKING about that.
....Since galleries never look at the work, only the resume,....
That's an interesting assertion. But I don't believe it. On
what do you base this? My personal experience is that no matter
WHAT the resume says, the gallery won't be interested if the
work doesn't fit their requirements.
...If not for the subsidy of teaching jobs there would be no ceramics
left....If I went to the convention of full-time ceramic artists I would be
there by myself.....they are hampered by the stranglehold the educators
have on the markets.....How can there be so much work offered at such
prices?....Fat teaching jobs and free facilities, that's how....
Well, you are entitled to your opinions, of course. But such
assertions ought to be backed up by more than anger. The folks
I know who make their livings from ceramics are NOT teachers.
They are mostly potters, with a few sculptors thrown in. Most
the full time teachers of ceramics that
I PERSONALLY know, do not make their livings from galleries,
nor fairs, nor generally from selling their work ANYPLACE. They make
their living from teaching, which is after all what they get
paid for. It's not THEIR prices/competition that undercut at fairs.
And no matter what you may think, they don't get
paid a whole lot. Low end of the totem pole, compared to
those who make a living teaching biology, or math, or computer
science, for instance. And none of the above even begins
to deal with the fact that there are only about 15-20
full-time teaching jobs in ceramics available nationwide any given
year. Even if teaching were "where the money is", the
odds of getting a full-time position would not be good.
...Uninformed my butt....sounds to me like the original poster was fairly
observant and on the right track .....
Aw, c'mon. Annoyance and suspicion shouldn't substitute
for factual information. Get a grip. Go into your studio
and make stuff. You'll have a better day.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Janet Kaiser on mon 22 oct 01
>>Since galleries never look at the work, only the
resume, I would say...<<
Bollocks! That is unadulterated tosh!
Galleries may like the additional collective consensus
of opinion which is supported by a full resume, CV or
list of previous exhibitions (especially if the curator
is presented with a medium new to them), but any
gallery worth its salt is going to be looking out for
GOOD, STRONG, NEW work, even if it is made down a
sewer.
Coming from an academic or college environment is no
big deal, but they do know how to network. Sure the old
adage, "It's who you know, not what you know" still
holds true. Like any other profession, galleries often
work on the recommendations of others - individuals
artists, associations, college departments and other
galleries. Once chosen, the gallery will represent the
artist and his/her work and as long as it is a good
relationship, there will be offers of repeat
exhibitions with them and elsewhere. Word will soon go
around about good people and bad...
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
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