claybair on sun 21 oct 01
John,
Thanks for your in-depth analysis of workshops.
I agree with what you expressed.
Having done a few workshops I have a fair idea what input it takes and what
it takes out of the presenter? I also know how wonderful it is to share
ideas, techniques and watch someone "get it".
What stimulated my question was having gone to several $100+ 2 day
workshops that had at least 40 people in attendance. I guess my question is
where the $4000+ went.... the sponsoring organization or the presenter...
what is the usual breakdown? Does the workshop presenter advertise their
fees for doing workshops? If travel is necessary who pays for the
transportation?
Who pays for lodging, food etc? And most importantly.... who rolls out the
red carpet and peels the grapes?? :->
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of John Baymore
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 10:58 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: where the money is NOT / Workshops
I was under the impression that teaching workshops can be pretty lucrative?
Am I wrong?
Gayle,
I guess it really all comes down to what you define as "lucrative" . If
someone tends to live kinda' "hand to mouth", a sudden influx of cash
without having to make a lot of pots (using materials and fuel) can often
seem like a lot of "easy" money. Mana from heaven. But it really isn't a
huge "cash cow". And it ain't "easy" . IF most of us (other than the
Soldner's, Autio's, and Volkous types of the world) did one workshop a week
every week of the year.......... we'd be hard pressed to hit about $50,000
GROSS annual income (remember we're self employed...... that's $50K BEFORE
the high self employed tax issues....and carries no bennies).
$50 K a year of employee-type pay (with usual benefits) is a good solid
comfortable middle class American income level........ not really
"lucrative"....but nice.
Compare what a "big gun", top of the heap ceramics person like
Volkous/Autio/Soldner gets per day compared to a top-of-the-heap person in
professioanl sports, medicine, business, or most any other field. No
contest. Nope...... not lucrative .
I have done and still do quite a few workshops. I feel that I get paid
reasonably well for what I do...... as in I don't feel totally "ripped off"
for all my time invested in such things....... but when compared to the
fees that presenters in many other disciplines often get ....... ceramics
workshops are not really a big "money maker".
At least not in the direct sense. There are always the "marketing
spinoffs" invloved with any type of professional exposure in a field .
Workshops beget workshops. Workshops beget consulting jobs. Workshops
beget publishing offers. Workshops sometimes find new sales outlets.
Workshops sometimes find teaching jobs. Workshops facilitate networking.
Workshops make you appear "successful" and success breeds success ......and
also has a tendency to raises prices . And so on.
Pieces sold to participants when you present is one possible way to
increase your "take" ........ but I look at that as "pots sold".... not as
part of the "workshop revenue". If I weren't doing the workshop..... those
pots (probably) wouldn't have sold to THOSE particular people....but that
is still a separate income source. I already worked hard to produce those
pots...... they are just earning what they should have earned anyway
(usually sold to participants at wholesale-type prices or even below) ....
they're just sold in a different location to people who probably appreciate
them a bit more than the "average" customer . (It IS nice having your
pieces find a good home .)
When I do a workshop......... I return to my studio totally exhausted. It
is not that I am an introvert and am forcing the aspect of being in front
of people. No..... I'm an extrovert, with a vengence . But when you do
this type of presentation you are "on" for long periods of time....even
when you are not "formally" presenting.....but are in "schmoozing mode" and
"just" sitting around over a beer. You are giving of
yourself.....constantly. Over breakfast...over lunch....at dinner.... in
the bar. ON...on...on. Always on. (Even by email afterward.) It is hard
work to do it. Not at ALL "easy money."
I just did a 2 day workshop at the Harvard University ceramics program two
weekends ago. In the group participating, this very "what potters tend to
get for their time" subject came up in a discussion at one point (I make a
point of making sure it DOES come up ....important stuff). One of the
participants..... a part time potter and full time freelance graphic
designer........ commented that she charged $75.00 an hour for her graphics
time. Another participant also mentioned a similar hourly rate for such
services. (Started em' thinking about what they charge for their work
......YES!) Few ceramics workshop presenters earn $75.00 an hour. More
like $40-60 per hour, at best. For many....... it's way less.
Most ceramists in the USA pretty much COMPLETLY underestimate the real
value of their time and acquired skills. In THAT case, a workshop
presenters fee can seem like a lot of money at first glance. I know from
experience that some people in the ceramics field look at $200 a day plus
expenses as "really good money" for presenting a workshop. Assuming a 10
hour day (which is reasonable, the way it usually goes ) that is only
$20.00 per hour, gross....pre tax....no bennies. And that assumes no prep
time or lost time afterwards "recovering" from giving 110 percent of
yourself. So it might come out to more like 10$ an hour when you include
those factors.
Here in southern NH you can get a burger flipper job for 8-10$ per hour,
with bennies, workman's comp, etc..
I think part of the impression that workshops pay very well is the impact
that the cost of the workshop sometimes has on the individuals
participating. Most US potters don't make much money from their craft. So
workshop fees can sometimes seem steep when measured against THAT
yardstick. I often hear people complaining about the cost of things like
going to NCECA conferences. WHAT!!!!! What an incredible bargain NCECA
is. Try going to another national level professional conference with the
plethora of educational and professional networking opportunities for the
same kind of expenditure! In my experience, most ceramics workshops are
quite reasonable in price.......... except for the fact that most artists
in the USA are terribly unvervalued and hence underpaid. So a buck for us
is like five for many others. The more "full time" and "ceramics income
dependent" the ceramist...... usually the "tighter" the bucks are.
(BTW.......Those of us who have presented at NCECA get small
honorariums.... not big paychecks . Standardized rates paid. Tons of
volunteer hours for organizing. Breakout groups run for free by the
leaders. No one is getting "rich" off of NCECA..... well....maybe the
hotel owners .)
When it comes to presenting workshops there is also the "service to the
field" aspect that many of us try to do regularly. This past Saturday I
did a presentation for the NH Art Educators Association annual conference.
My program was targeted for teachers in the elementary, middle, and high
school system here in NH that are teaching ceramics to the coming
generations. I looked at the time I spent for it as "stoking the fires"
of the ceramics and arts field "kiln" in the state. Planting a tree for
the fires of the future. In addition to the actual presentation....I spent
a bunch of "prep time". I was paid a very tiny
"honorarium"....essentiallly a "freebie". The lack of pay didn't bother me
one single bit....... that wasn't why I was doing it. I got paid VERY
well...... in my soul.
Most of us who present workshops like giving something back. Workshops are
a chance for you to share your knowledge base with others....... return to
the field something in "payment" for what you have recieved over the years.
Others did it for me.............. now it is my turn. I have been
fortunate enough in my professional life in ceramics to be in a position
where I (hopefully ) have something to share with others. A chance to
assure that a profession/avocation/art that I love continues forth in good
stead. It's an honor to be able to do it.... and also a big responsibility
at the same time.
There certainly IS a "selfish" aspect to presenting too. Workshops ALSO
afford the PRESENTER a chance to continue to learn. I gain a lot and grow
as a result of presenting workshops. It provides stimulation and ideas.
It helps you keep thinking "outside the box". It challenges you and keeps
you from becoming stale. Keeps you alive and the "pencil" honed to a fine
point. Workshops are a great chance to meet other potters, keep your
finger on the pulse of the field, and see where things are going and what
the issues are. An opportunity to test new ideas and check on the validity
of old ones. THAT is a big part of the paycheck!
And anyone that doesn't tell you it is at least a little "kick" to be on
the "other side of the stage"....... ain't telling the whole truth .
When you take the perparation time and the "recovery time" into
consideration.......... most of us presenting workshops do not get paid all
that "lucratively". But in the overall "big picture"....... it all
balances out.
My few cents worth.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"
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John Baymore on sun 21 oct 01
I was under the impression that teaching workshops can be pretty lucrativ=
e?
Am I wrong?
Gayle,
I guess it really all comes down to what you define as "lucrative" . =
If
someone tends to live kinda' "hand to mouth", a sudden influx of cash
without having to make a lot of pots (using materials and fuel) can often=
seem like a lot of "easy" money. Mana from heaven. But it really isn't =
a
huge "cash cow". And it ain't "easy" . IF most of us (other than the=
Soldner's, Autio's, and Volkous types of the world) did one workshop a we=
ek
every week of the year.......... we'd be hard pressed to hit about $50,00=
0
GROSS annual income (remember we're self employed...... that's $50K BEFOR=
E
the high self employed tax issues....and carries no bennies). =
$50 K a year of employee-type pay (with usual benefits) is a good solid
comfortable middle class American income level........ not really
"lucrative"....but nice.
Compare what a "big gun", top of the heap ceramics person like
Volkous/Autio/Soldner gets per day compared to a top-of-the-heap person i=
n
professioanl sports, medicine, business, or most any other field. No
contest. Nope...... not lucrative .
I have done and still do quite a few workshops. I feel that I get paid
reasonably well for what I do...... as in I don't feel totally "ripped of=
f"
for all my time invested in such things....... but when compared to the
fees that presenters in many other disciplines often get ....... ceramics=
workshops are not really a big "money maker". =
At least not in the direct sense. There are always the "marketing
spinoffs" invloved with any type of professional exposure in a field .=
=
Workshops beget workshops. Workshops beget consulting jobs. Workshops
beget publishing offers. Workshops sometimes find new sales outlets. =
Workshops sometimes find teaching jobs. Workshops facilitate networking.=
=
Workshops make you appear "successful" and success breeds success ......a=
nd
also has a tendency to raises prices . And so on.
Pieces sold to participants when you present is one possible way to
increase your "take" ........ but I look at that as "pots sold".... not =
as
part of the "workshop revenue". If I weren't doing the workshop..... tho=
se
pots (probably) wouldn't have sold to THOSE particular people....but that=
is still a separate income source. I already worked hard to produce thos=
e
pots...... they are just earning what they should have earned anyway
(usually sold to participants at wholesale-type prices or even below) ...=
. =
they're just sold in a different location to people who probably apprecia=
te
them a bit more than the "average" customer . (It IS nice having your=
pieces find a good home .)
When I do a workshop......... I return to my studio totally exhausted. I=
t
is not that I am an introvert and am forcing the aspect of being in front=
of people. No..... I'm an extrovert, with a vengence . But when you =
do
this type of presentation you are "on" for long periods of time....even
when you are not "formally" presenting.....but are in "schmoozing mode" a=
nd
"just" sitting around over a beer. You are giving of
yourself.....constantly. Over breakfast...over lunch....at dinner.... in=
the bar. ON...on...on. Always on. (Even by email afterward.) It is ha=
rd
work to do it. Not at ALL "easy money."
I just did a 2 day workshop at the Harvard University ceramics program tw=
o
weekends ago. In the group participating, this very "what potters tend t=
o
get for their time" subject came up in a discussion at one point (I make =
a
point of making sure it DOES come up ....important stuff). One of the=
participants..... a part time potter and full time freelance graphic
designer........ commented that she charged $75.00 an hour for her graphi=
cs
time. Another participant also mentioned a similar hourly rate for such
services. (Started em' thinking about what they charge for their work
......YES!) Few ceramics workshop presenters earn $75.00 an hour. Mo=
re
like $40-60 per hour, at best. For many....... it's way less.
Most ceramists in the USA pretty much COMPLETLY underestimate the real
value of their time and acquired skills. In THAT case, a workshop
presenters fee can seem like a lot of money at first glance. I know from=
experience that some people in the ceramics field look at $200 a day plus=
expenses as "really good money" for presenting a workshop. Assuming a 10=
hour day (which is reasonable, the way it usually goes ) that is only
$20.00 per hour, gross....pre tax....no bennies. And that assumes no pre=
p
time or lost time afterwards "recovering" from giving 110 percent of
yourself. So it might come out to more like 10$ an hour when you include=
those factors. =
Here in southern NH you can get a burger flipper job for 8-10$ per hour,
with bennies, workman's comp, etc..
I think part of the impression that workshops pay very well is the impact=
that the cost of the workshop sometimes has on the individuals
participating. Most US potters don't make much money from their craft. =
So
workshop fees can sometimes seem steep when measured against THAT
yardstick. I often hear people complaining about the cost of things like=
going to NCECA conferences. WHAT!!!!! What an incredible bargain NCECA
is. Try going to another national level professional conference with the=
plethora of educational and professional networking opportunities for the=
same kind of expenditure! In my experience, most ceramics workshops ar=
e
quite reasonable in price.......... except for the fact that most artists=
in the USA are terribly unvervalued and hence underpaid. So a buck for u=
s
is like five for many others. The more "full time" and "ceramics income
dependent" the ceramist...... usually the "tighter" the bucks are.
(BTW.......Those of us who have presented at NCECA get small
honorariums.... not big paychecks . Standardized rates paid. Tons of=
volunteer hours for organizing. Breakout groups run for free by the
leaders. No one is getting "rich" off of NCECA..... well....maybe the
hotel owners .)
When it comes to presenting workshops there is also the "service to the
field" aspect that many of us try to do regularly. This past Saturday I
did a presentation for the NH Art Educators Association annual conference=
. =
My program was targeted for teachers in the elementary, middle, and high
school system here in NH that are teaching ceramics to the coming
generations. I looked at the time I spent for it as "stoking the fires"=
of the ceramics and arts field "kiln" in the state. Planting a tree for=
the fires of the future. In addition to the actual presentation....I spe=
nt
a bunch of "prep time". I was paid a very tiny
"honorarium"....essentiallly a "freebie". The lack of pay didn't bother =
me
one single bit....... that wasn't why I was doing it. I got paid VERY
well...... in my soul.
Most of us who present workshops like giving something back. Workshops a=
re
a chance for you to share your knowledge base with others....... return t=
o
the field something in "payment" for what you have recieved over the year=
s.
Others did it for me.............. now it is my turn. I have been
fortunate enough in my professional life in ceramics to be in a position
where I (hopefully ) have something to share with others. A chance to=
assure that a profession/avocation/art that I love continues forth in goo=
d
stead. It's an honor to be able to do it.... and also a big responsibili=
ty
at the same time.
There certainly IS a "selfish" aspect to presenting too. Workshops ALSO
afford the PRESENTER a chance to continue to learn. I gain a lot and gro=
w
as a result of presenting workshops. It provides stimulation and ideas. =
It helps you keep thinking "outside the box". It challenges you and keep=
s
you from becoming stale. Keeps you alive and the "pencil" honed to a fin=
e
point. Workshops are a great chance to meet other potters, keep your
finger on the pulse of the field, and see where things are going and what=
the issues are. An opportunity to test new ideas and check on the validi=
ty
of old ones. THAT is a big part of the paycheck! =
And anyone that doesn't tell you it is at least a little "kick" to be on
the "other side of the stage"....... ain't telling the whole truth .
When you take the perparation time and the "recovery time" into
consideration.......... most of us presenting workshops do not get paid a=
ll
that "lucratively". But in the overall "big picture"....... it all
balances out.
My few cents worth.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"=
John Baymore on tue 23 oct 01
What stimulated my question was having gone to several $100+ 2 day
workshops that had at least 40 people in attendance. I guess my question=
is
where the $4000+ went.... the sponsoring organization or the presenter...=
what is the usual breakdown? Does the workshop presenter advertise their=
fees for doing workshops? If travel is necessary who pays for the
transportation?
Who pays for lodging, food etc? And most importantly.... who rolls out th=
e
red carpet and peels the grapes?? :->
Gayle,
You are quite welcome.
I don't think that there really is a "usual breakdown". =
In my experience the most common situation is that all the expenses like
transportation / lodging/ food and so on are paid by the sponsoring
organization. Of course such things are always negotiable.... but if the=
presenter was paying those themselves....... she/he would simply have to
raise the "fee" charged to cover such things. They are a real expense an=
d
have to come from SOMEWHERE . Now...... sometimes most of the "food" =
is
in the line of many "potlucks", and the lodging is in a spare bedroom of =
a
sponsor's house. That cuts costs for the overall program. I imagine tha=
t
some presenters are more flexible in that regard than others. Knowing
"clay people", I'd say most are pretty flexible about such things . =
(For me...... a spare couch is fine as long as there are no cats, hamster=
s,
or guinea pigs....... allergic to cats and many pet-type rodents .)
SO......... generally speaking, the further the presenter is traveling to=
get to the site.... the more costs incurred by the sponsor (one way or th=
e
other ). Most preseners TRY to line up other workshops in the
geographical area they are going to so that each organization can sort of=
"split" the cost of transportation. Sometimes the sponsor organization
itself will work to line up other workshops for the person too........ to=
cut costs for themselves. This is, of course, not always possible . =
The venues usually just plan on the "worst case" transportation scenario =
to
start with.... and go from there. Anything saved by coop-ing costs then =
is
sort of "gravy money"....... usually for the sponsor.
For NCECA, in general, the presenter covers expenses. So the typical $20=
0
honorarium for most of the panel/lecture type presentations doesn't even
touch the hotel room , let alone food and travel. But the "prestige" =
of
presenting at something like NCECA has a definite intangible "value", and=
therefore most people don't look at it as a direct "money maker". Mainly=
,
it's an honor to be there at all. Some presenters are also teachers at
colleges..... and sometimes a school pays for a faculty member to attend
NCECA..... so if they also happen to be presenting...... that cuts the
costs involved. (Years ago this practice used to be pretty common..... b=
ut
from talking to people lately, it might be becoming a little less common
now.)
Most presenters tend to weigh the "value" of a particular venue to their
career at that point in time a bit, or look at certain venues as places
that they hold "near and dear"....got their start there, or did their fir=
st
workshop there, or something like that....or are looked at as "service to=
the field". So they might do a workshop at one place for somewhat less
than at another, or just basically donate their time for what they see as=
a
"good cause". Dannon kind of alluded to that already in another post, an=
d
I mentioned the "freebie" I just did. Sometimes you are "filling in" an
open date in a geographical location...... and are willing to cut your
"normal" rate just to fill in a dead time slot. Beats starting at the
walls . That situation often lets a place get a presenter that they
normally could not afford.
Some workshop presenters do some overt "advertising" to possible
venues....but I'd say a good portion don't. As a faculty member at a
school...... I sometimes get brochures from prospective presenters lookin=
g
for an opportunity to share their expertise. These usually have a
"typical" per day fee listed for a "typical workshop" or something like
that. I think that more workshops are lined up through informal
"networking" than an organized "advertising campaign".... but I CERTAINLY=
could be quite wrong on that one. =
A $4 Grand total "take" for a two day workshop sounds like a lot at first=
glance. But the workshop presenter and all the expenses related to him/h=
er
probably eats up roughly half of that total right off the top. Then out =
of
that remaining $2 Grand has to come all the advertising, mailing costs,
materials used, a bit of liability insurance, and diverse overhead like
heat/lights/equipment amortization and so on. Then there is the labor to=
pay for the administration and planning time for hosting the workshop. A=
nd
the labor for at least one person to be at the workshop as a host and/or
"gofer". In most cases, I'd bet this totals about a grand or so out of t=
he
above scenario. Likely quite a bit more. So the amount the sponsor "net=
s"
in this case is probably around a Grand or so. Likely well less. Which,=
even at a Grand, really is not a lot of money. Again.... if the sponsor
did one such workshop a week....... it'd result in a pre-tax gross of onl=
y
about $50 K a year. Many who sponsor workshops are things like potters
guilds, non-profits, and so on. They often depend on this income
greatly....... since their overall budgets are often quite lean to stat
with. A Grand to these types of organizations is like a Million to other=
s
.
And the "risk" for attandance is usually ALL the sponsors. Few situation=
s
I know of link the presenter's fees to the "gate", so to speak. For ever=
y
workshop that is packed..... there is another that is barely enrolled. =
Hopefully the profitability for the sponsor averages out in the end.
Unfortunately, I think the header title of this thread (where the money i=
s
NOT) should really be directed more to the ceramics field in general =
. =
While there are certainly some exceptions, not too many in the clay field=
,
whether they be teachers, production potters, ceramic sculptors, or
whatever, are really making a LOT of money.... when you compare it to man=
y
other fields. Ceramics faculty seem to be on the lower end ofthe pay
scales. Even many of the ceramics suppliers could make a lot more profit=
s
if they changed to selling materials in another more mainstream industry.=
=
Clay folks are rich in other ways.... but in the green stuff......... we
are often a bit "challenged".
As to that other green stuff you asked about.......... good grape peelers=
are in short supply and demand high fees these days . And the red
carpets always get full of that darn clay dust and look more like pinkish=
grey .
Hope this answers your questions.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"=
claybair on tue 23 oct 01
Thanks John,
My eyes have been opened and I have seen the light! Thanks for taking the
time to give us such a detailed breakdown of workshops.
Potters are not the only low paid artisans....I was considering applying to
a local aquarium which has listed a $1000 grant to paint a mural. I found
out the mural is approx. 18' x 50'. I think that would work out somewhere
between minimum wage and slave labor! When I said that is not a lot of $ for
such a project she said something about the exposure......Frankly I think if
I streaked down main street I'd get more "exposure"!
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of John Baymore
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 6:29 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Where the money is NOT / Workshops
What stimulated my question was having gone to several $100+ 2 day
workshops that had at least 40 people in attendance. I guess my question
is
where the $4000+ went.... the sponsoring organization or the presenter...
what is the usual breakdown? Does the workshop presenter advertise their
fees for doing workshops? If travel is necessary who pays for the
transportation?
Who pays for lodging, food etc? And most importantly.... who rolls out the
red carpet and peels the grapes?? :->
Gayle,
You are quite welcome.
I don't think that there really is a "usual breakdown".
In my experience the most common situation is that all the expenses like
transportation / lodging/ food and so on are paid by the sponsoring
organization. Of course such things are always negotiable.... but if the
presenter was paying those themselves....... she/he would simply have to
raise the "fee" charged to cover such things. They are a real expense and
have to come from SOMEWHERE . Now...... sometimes most of the "food" is
in the line of many "potlucks", and the lodging is in a spare bedroom of a
sponsor's house. That cuts costs for the overall program. I imagine that
some presenters are more flexible in that regard than others. Knowing
"clay people", I'd say most are pretty flexible about such things .
(For me...... a spare couch is fine as long as there are no cats, hamsters,
or guinea pigs....... allergic to cats and many pet-type rodents .)
SO......... generally speaking, the further the presenter is traveling to
get to the site.... the more costs incurred by the sponsor (one way or the
other ). Most preseners TRY to line up other workshops in the
geographical area they are going to so that each organization can sort of
"split" the cost of transportation. Sometimes the sponsor organization
itself will work to line up other workshops for the person too........ to
cut costs for themselves. This is, of course, not always possible .
The venues usually just plan on the "worst case" transportation scenario to
start with.... and go from there. Anything saved by coop-ing costs then is
sort of "gravy money"....... usually for the sponsor.
For NCECA, in general, the presenter covers expenses. So the typical $200
honorarium for most of the panel/lecture type presentations doesn't even
touch the hotel room , let alone food and travel. But the "prestige" of
presenting at something like NCECA has a definite intangible "value", and
therefore most people don't look at it as a direct "money maker". Mainly,
it's an honor to be there at all. Some presenters are also teachers at
colleges..... and sometimes a school pays for a faculty member to attend
NCECA..... so if they also happen to be presenting...... that cuts the
costs involved. (Years ago this practice used to be pretty common..... but
from talking to people lately, it might be becoming a little less common
now.)
Most presenters tend to weigh the "value" of a particular venue to their
career at that point in time a bit, or look at certain venues as places
that they hold "near and dear"....got their start there, or did their first
workshop there, or something like that....or are looked at as "service to
the field". So they might do a workshop at one place for somewhat less
than at another, or just basically donate their time for what they see as a
"good cause". Dannon kind of alluded to that already in another post, and
I mentioned the "freebie" I just did. Sometimes you are "filling in" an
open date in a geographical location...... and are willing to cut your
"normal" rate just to fill in a dead time slot. Beats starting at the
walls . That situation often lets a place get a presenter that they
normally could not afford.
Some workshop presenters do some overt "advertising" to possible
venues....but I'd say a good portion don't. As a faculty member at a
school...... I sometimes get brochures from prospective presenters looking
for an opportunity to share their expertise. These usually have a
"typical" per day fee listed for a "typical workshop" or something like
that. I think that more workshops are lined up through informal
"networking" than an organized "advertising campaign".... but I CERTAINLY
could be quite wrong on that one.
A $4 Grand total "take" for a two day workshop sounds like a lot at first
glance. But the workshop presenter and all the expenses related to him/her
probably eats up roughly half of that total right off the top. Then out of
that remaining $2 Grand has to come all the advertising, mailing costs,
materials used, a bit of liability insurance, and diverse overhead like
heat/lights/equipment amortization and so on. Then there is the labor to
pay for the administration and planning time for hosting the workshop. And
the labor for at least one person to be at the workshop as a host and/or
"gofer". In most cases, I'd bet this totals about a grand or so out of the
above scenario. Likely quite a bit more. So the amount the sponsor "nets"
in this case is probably around a Grand or so. Likely well less. Which,
even at a Grand, really is not a lot of money. Again.... if the sponsor
did one such workshop a week....... it'd result in a pre-tax gross of only
about $50 K a year. Many who sponsor workshops are things like potters
guilds, non-profits, and so on. They often depend on this income
greatly....... since their overall budgets are often quite lean to stat
with. A Grand to these types of organizations is like a Million to others
.
And the "risk" for attandance is usually ALL the sponsors. Few situations
I know of link the presenter's fees to the "gate", so to speak. For every
workshop that is packed..... there is another that is barely enrolled.
Hopefully the profitability for the sponsor averages out in the end.
Unfortunately, I think the header title of this thread (where the money is
NOT) should really be directed more to the ceramics field in general .
While there are certainly some exceptions, not too many in the clay field,
whether they be teachers, production potters, ceramic sculptors, or
whatever, are really making a LOT of money.... when you compare it to many
other fields. Ceramics faculty seem to be on the lower end ofthe pay
scales. Even many of the ceramics suppliers could make a lot more profits
if they changed to selling materials in another more mainstream industry.
Clay folks are rich in other ways.... but in the green stuff......... we
are often a bit "challenged".
As to that other green stuff you asked about.......... good grape peelers
are in short supply and demand high fees these days . And the red
carpets always get full of that darn clay dust and look more like pinkish
grey .
Hope this answers your questions.
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"
Paul Lewing on tue 23 oct 01
Had I not been off doing a workshop this weekend, I probably would have
chimed in on this one. But I'm just now getting back to things like reading
all the Clayart messages. You'll notice it's Tuesday afternoon, and I
haven't done anything but prepare and recover from the workshop since last
Wednesday.
I would have had a lot to say if John Baymore hadn't said everything there
was to say already. I would just add that a year or so ago, Terry Sullivan
posted a notice asking people to tell him what they charged for workshops,
and he then gave us a rundown. Of course, the "Living Legends" are in a
class by themselves, but he said that most people who do workshops regularly
and have a small reputation for that, are charging between $200 and $300 a
day for a two-day class, and usually give a price break for a 5-day class,
so that might cost about $1000. Plus travel, lodging and meals. In my
experience, that usually means the host's guest room, and at least some of
the meals in their home.
And, while I've done dozens of workshops in (so far) 34 states (and working
toward 50) I can count on one hand the number of times I've had 40 students.
I've had over 50 twice, but more usually, it's 20 or fewer.
Recently I was talking about this with a guy I know slightly at a show.
he's a motivational speaker. He gets the same as I do for a two-day
workshop for a 2-hour lecture. Believe me, nobody's getting rich doing
workshops. If I have lots of work to do, I can probably make twice as much
staying home. Mostly, I'm in it for the adulation, which I never get at
home .
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Dannon Rhudy on tue 23 oct 01
...... When I said that is not a lot of $ for
>such a project she said something about the exposure......Frankly I think if
>I streaked down main street I'd get more "exposure"!......
Indeed you would, Gayle. And we all encourage you in
this endeavor. Probably you could co-opt a friend with a
camera to get pictures. They'll be worth a lot.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Janet Kaiser on tue 23 oct 01
Dear Gayle,
You answered yourself, honey! The $4,000 would
hopefully cover:
1. All costs incurred providing and/or hiring the
venue, such as rent, insurance, taxes, janitor,
helpers, etc.
2. All the advertising, administration, mailing,
banking costs are usually born by the hosting body, who
usually pays the full cost of an invitational tutor and
(incidentally) bares all the risks.
3. All incidental costs for the workshop: materials,
printed matter, etc.
4. Finally the cost of all travel to and from the
venue, lodging, meals, etc. as well as the agreed basic
fee to the tutor.
This all needs to be tightly budgeted. There are not
many $ left as "profit" at the end of the year,
especially as not all workshops get 40 attendees.
Indeed many do not take place because there are not
enough participants to break even... The advertising,
administration (advising enrolled
participants/returning cheques, etc) and possible
cancellation fees for venue and tutor, still have to be
paid for by the host. Sometimes, external sponsors or
other funding bodies agree to pick up the tab on any
short-fall, but a workshop which does not take place
always represents a loss to someone. If one workshop
makes a profit, you can almost guarantee it will be
eaten up by the next one making a loss!
As a two day workshop means four days (minimum) out of
production and/or the day job for the tutor (if they
are not fairly "local"), this has to be covered by
their fee. Fees sometimes sound high, but when you
consider the time and disruption involved, they are
not. For example a $1,000 fee for a two-day course,
would in effect be $250 per day for the potter's time
or even less if they find it takes a couple of days to
get back into the swing of things when they return to
their own studio.
Of course those on a stipend are going to be the
winners here... Their monthly salary plus other
extra-curricular workshop fees on top. This may be
where some people think "teaching is lucrative"!!
International tutors usually do a series of workshops
in one country, so they include a % to cover their own
travelling, beyond the usual inland costs covered by
the several hosts and/or other sponsors.
On the whole, whether inland or abroad, tutors are very
coy about what they charge and do not advertise at a
fixed rate... Not least because of the "it depends"
factor. The world-famous potter demonstrating to
his/her local guild is not going to charge the same as
when he has to travel 100s or even 1000s of miles.
He/she may do a "deal" if a proposed workshop would fit
in well with his/her timetable or make up the numbers
on a series being planned. For example, workshops are
confirmed in Boston, N.Y., Baltimore and Washington DC
over a period but there is a five-day break in the
middle still "free", when a school in Philadelphia
phones to say they heard of the tour... They say they
cannot afford the stated fee, but come to an agreement
after a bit of negotiation...
Of course several institutions may co-operate when
inviting a high-profile potter, so they do all the
planning and spread the cost, right down to the grapes!
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> What stimulated my question was having gone to
several $100+ 2 day
> workshops that had at least 40 people in attendance.
I guess my question is
> where the $4000+ went.... the sponsoring organization
or the presenter...
> what is the usual breakdown? Does the workshop
presenter advertise their
> fees for doing workshops? If travel is necessary who
pays for the
> transportation?
> Who pays for lodging, food etc? And most
importantly.... who rolls out the
> red carpet and peels the grapes?? :->
John Baymore on wed 24 oct 01
Potters are not the only low paid artisans....I was considering applying =
to
a local aquarium which has listed a $1000 grant to paint a mural. I found=
out the mural is approx. 18' x 50'. I think that would work out somewhere=
between minimum wage and slave labor! When I said that is not a lot of $
for
such a project she said something about the exposure......Frankly I think=
if
I streaked down main street I'd get more "exposure"!
Gayle,
Yeah........ The arts in America in general are pretty undervalued..... a=
nd
that carries through to what artists in all media tend to get paid. Only=
an elite few that make "good money" when measured on the "what other
professions get paid" yardstick.
Can you imagine a top clay artist artist being paid like a top profession=
al
football player ?
People just LOVE to get artists "exposure"............. it keeps them fro=
m
having to pay for the services.... and asuages their mildly guilty
conscience for treating someone so badly .
Does that $ Grand just cover the artist's labor........ or are you expect=
ed
to supply the PAINT out of that too ?
Best,
..............................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"=
=?iso-8859-1?q?sally=20Bazett?= on wed 24 oct 01
Apparently in the UK sculptures and artists are in the
same car insurance bracket as premier league
footballers, Ah to have an income like Damien
Hurst!!!
(a cleaner threw away part of an installation of his
the other day, they had to pull it all back out of the
bin and reassemble it according to photos!)
Sally B
Glos UK
--- John Baymore wrote: >
> Potters are not the only low paid artisans....I was
> considering applying to
> a local aquarium which has listed a $1000 grant to
> paint a mural. I found
> out the mural is approx. 18' x 50'. I think that
> would work out somewhere
> between minimum wage and slave labor! When I said
> that is not a lot of $
> for
> such a project she said something about the
> exposure......Frankly I think
> if
> I streaked down main street I'd get more "exposure"!
>
>
> Gayle,
>
> Yeah........ The arts in America in general are
> pretty undervalued..... and
> that carries through to what artists in all media
> tend to get paid. Only
> an elite few that make "good money" when measured on
> the "what other
> professions get paid" yardstick.
>
> Can you imagine a top clay artist artist being paid
> like a top professional
> football player ?
>
> People just LOVE to get artists
> "exposure"............. it keeps them from
> having to pay for the services.... and asuages their
> mildly guilty
> conscience for treating someone so badly .
>
> Does that $ Grand just cover the artist's
> labor........ or are you expected
> to supply the PAINT out of that too ?
>
>
> Best,
>
> ..............................john
>
> John Baymore
> River Bend Pottery
> 22 Riverbend Way
> Wilton, NH 03086 USA
>
> 603-654-2752 (s)
> 800-900-1110 (s)
>
> JohnBaymore.com
>
> JBaymore@compuserve.com
> John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
>
> "Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring
> Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"
>
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