Aebersold, Jane F on tue 20 nov 01
Good Morning List,
I've been reading the academic etc discussion, agreeing with some points and
disagreeing with others--and thinking best to just leave it alone--but, the
(see below) post from Susan Ford requires an answer. She is certainly
entitled to her opinion, but she's wrong on facts about OU ceramics.
The School of Art at OU (University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK) has not one
but two ceramics professors--which Susan should remember, since she and I
corresponded somewhat recently (after I noticed her address on Clayart). My
colleague had been, for many years, the only ceramics professor at OU--and I
think there's an old saying about not being able to please all of the people
all of the time, etc. There have been two of us since June 2000.
We talk a lot on Clayart about what programs offer, and what teachers teach;
surely we all know that students run the gamut also--from fabulous to
"...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...: and other
less complimentary phrases. I have been involved with clay in an academic
setting--Texas Tech, Tulane, Alfred, Bennington College and University of
Oklahoma since 1961--as a student and a teacher, and otherwise and other
places as an observer and a thinker and a maker. I believe I have a
reasonable overview. We do ok (ha!) here at OU. Much room to improve, and
we are always trying to do that.
About OU:
Students funnel into the program from many places. Some of these folks are
ceramics majors; some School of Art majors, trying it out;some are from
other Colleges in the University from other areas who my colleague and I
both admit to the program in spite of pre-reqs--because we like to teach
ceramics/clay/whatever to those who want to learn. Levels range from
beginning through graduate; years from 18 yrs to 40 plus; Our students
are a very diverse group in terms of range, ability, interests, focus,
abiltiy, energy--you name it. As many students as we teach--that's how many
different ideas of the why, what and how of ceramics with which we are
presented. Fundamenatally, our job is to try to focus those ideas, help
insure a sense of craft and clay, and get the old mind going.
We offer high fire reduction, salt, raku and a lot of electrics kilns.
The firings here this term include c9/10 reduction, salt, commercial glaze
c/06, majolica, and raku. We have wheels, work tables, slab rollers,
extruders, rolling pins, turntables, and on and on.
Students in all our classes have access to all the above. This term we have
students working through Ian Currie's method as well as a basic series of c
9/10 reduction tests; low fire and high fire slip making and testing;
majolica--working through Osterman, Arbuckle, Bole and Cushing bases and
myriad stains; low fire commercial stains. We use premixed clays, low and
high fire.
I really do take offense when someone says
"It's very frustrating to know that the academic
classes just down the road will be nothing but
frustrating and that the students will sneer at my
functional pots. It happened once before at a joint
workshop the local art center was giving."
because, as a matter of fact, the classes down the road have not been and
are not frustrating to all; our students as a group do not sneer at
functional pots--in fact, many are trying to learn to make them. This term
the throwing students are using my teaching, jepson and hopper videos, and
the clary illian workbookas benchmarks. I have a senior painting student
trying to turn slipwork and majolica into renaissance painting, and a
printmaker working to transpose her prints onto clay; students from
figurative sculpture classes (traditionally bronze and plaster) are working
in clay. More is going on, but I won't continue, ad nauseum.
OU is not a perfect place, but it is more complex and certainly more
interesting and compelling than Susan Ford's attached comments would lead
one to believe.
And, it is not negative and not nasty--which seemed to me to be her
innuendo.
Best, Jane
Jane Aebersold
Professor
School of Art
and
Curator of Ceramics
Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art
The University of Oklahoma
405-325-8787
jane@ou.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:10:45 -0600
From: Susan Ford
Subject: Re: art discussion
Let me give a few real-life examples. The art
department at OU (Oklahoma University in Norman)
has (last I checked) one ceramic art professor. She
only does non-functional pieces.
Folks graduate from her program not knowing how to
mix a glaze or the science of glaze making, and
they don''t know how to mix clay. I knew a student
that recently changed universities and was in a
panic because she was asked to mix a glaze. She
had no clue what to do or how to follow a recipe
Well it doesn't stop at the clay department. In the
painting department, the students do not learn how
to mix pigments and paints.
I've always wanted to take some academic clay
classses. I learned pottery in high school and took
classes wherever there was an art center nearby
that gave pottery lessons. I learned how to mix clay
and glazes from these instructors.
It's very frustrating to know that the academic
classes just down the road will be nothing but
frustrating and that the students will sneer at my
functional pots. It happened once before at a joint
workshop the local art center was giving.
Susan
chris clarke on tue 20 nov 01
Sorry to butt in,
I just wanted to say my years in college were
some one the most enlightening and interesting in my life.
(although my best day is always today).
To those on the list who poo-poo
get over it.
I can't imagine someone finding clay without
finding it in some form of higher education.
But do I care if someone has a degree, no
Seems to be a snobbery toward people who
did go to college. But I don't see it going the
other way. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
I certainly would not have graduated from high
school and bought a kiln, a wheel, chemicals, and
the countless other things we need, then jumped in
and taught myself.
I also can't envision some potter taking me on
as an apprentice. Little bitty silly girl that I was,
failed out college twice and was kicked out of a town.
Think a potter would have but up with me?
A college program is what you make it.
They teach the basics and a good teacher
knows the students to drop the reins on and
let them run. A good teacher is there to push,
not to smother.
My work doesn't look like Don's, but it is a mix of
every thing I've ever seen. To those who think college
turns out drones, copiers of the master, hmm, sounds
like every apprentice during the renaissance.
I was adult enough to know that Don didn't know
all the answers, what fun would that be. None of you know
all the answers, and if you profess to, bullshit.
Most of us don't listen to the college dissing, I would
go again. Yes some people didn't disserve the degree
that graduated with me, but since I'm not the watchdog of the world,
not my place.
Even in college, the education is not given.
You must grab it like a big dog and hold on.
Take more then your share, dig, explore,
and run like hell.
my opinion
chris
temecula, california
chris@ccpots.com
www.ccpots.com
Susan Ford on tue 20 nov 01
On 20 Nov 2001, at 3:56, Aebersold, Jane F wrote:
> We offer high fire reduction, salt, raku and a lot of
> electrics kilns. The firings here this term include
> c9/10 reduction, salt, commercial glaze c/06,
majolica, and raku. We have wheels, work tables,
slab rollers, extruders, rolling pins, turntables, and
on and on.
>
> Students in all our classes have access to all the
> above. This term we have students working
through Ian Currie's method as well as a basic
series of c 9/10 reduction tests; low fire and high
fire slip making and testing; majolica--working
through Osterman, Arbuckle, Bole and Cushing
bases and myriad stains; low fire commercial
stains. We use premixed clays, low and high
> fire.
>
Well then I must apologize, my information was old.
However, the points I stated were from personal
experience (not from heresay). If it's broadened
since then, that is wonderful news! It was NOT the
case in mid to late 80s.
more below.
> I really do take offense when someone says
>
> "It's very frustrating to know that the academic
> classes just down the road will be nothing but
> frustrating and that the students will sneer at my
> functional pots. It happened once before at a joint
> workshop the local art center was giving."
>
> because, as a matter of fact, the classes down the road
> have not been and are not frustrating to all; our
> students as a group do not sneer at functional pots--in
> fact, many are trying to learn to make them.
>
> OU is not a perfect place, but it is more complex and
> certainly more interesting and compelling than Susan
> Ford's attached comments would lead one to believe.
> And, it is not negative and not nasty--which seemed to
> me to be her innuendo.
This is good news. Obviously my experience was
such that it colored my opinion of the department.
You are kind. It was not innuendo it was a statement
of what had happened to me personally. I saw the
sneering in question. But, I'm willing to believe that it
was an isolated incident.
Do you have classes on forumlating glazes or is it
mixed in with the other classes? I'll go over to OU's
webpage and check out the clay classes offered.
Susan
> Best, Jane
>
> Jane Aebersold
> Professor
> School of Art
> and
> Curator of Ceramics
> Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art
>
> The University of Oklahoma
>
> 405-325-8787
> jane@ou.edu
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:10:45 -0600
> From: Susan Ford
> Subject: Re: art discussion
>
> Let me give a few real-life examples. The art
> department at OU (Oklahoma University in Norman)
> has (last I checked) one ceramic art professor. She
> only does non-functional pieces.
>
> Folks graduate from her program not knowing how to mix
> a glaze or the science of glaze making, and they don''t
> know how to mix clay. I knew a student that recently
> changed universities and was in a panic because she was
> asked to mix a glaze. She had no clue what to do or how
> to follow a recipe
>
> Well it doesn't stop at the clay department. In the
> painting department, the students do not learn how to
> mix pigments and paints.
>
> I've always wanted to take some academic clay
> classses. I learned pottery in high school and took
> classes wherever there was an art center nearby that
> gave pottery lessons. I learned how to mix clay and
> glazes from these instructors.
>
> It's very frustrating to know that the academic
> classes just down the road will be nothing but
> frustrating and that the students will sneer at my
> functional pots. It happened once before at a joint
> workshop the local art center was giving.
>
> Susan
>
> _______________________________________________________
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>
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> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
---
Susan K. Ford
Norman, Oklahoma
http://www.clueless.norman.ok.us/sf/rerhome.htm
The weakest ink lasts longer
than the strongest memory.
-- Confucious
Cindy Strnad on tue 20 nov 01
Dear Chris,
I'm glad you had a good college experience. I did,
too. And yes, you're right to some extent--a
college experience is what you make it. You do
have to have some basic materials to work with,
though. My college experience was in the field of
nursing, and though I feel I benefited from it, I
never felt I learned a great deal more of the
important stuff than the elder "apprenticeship"
nurses I've met in the real world. (BTW, I made
excellent grades, and I earned them.)
On the other hand, yes, some of us really did go
out and buy all that pottery stuff and jump into
it on our own. We're learning a little bit and a
little bit more, and most of us take the greatest
leaps in knowledge by screwing up badly. We're all
apprenticing one another here on Clayart. Both
venues have merit. I think what's being said here
is not that academic training is worthless, but
that it could, and often should, be worth more.
That the student is not (in some cases--not all)
getting as much value for money as he or she has a
right to expect. I can't say, as I haven't done
the college arts thing, but I expect that both
sides have a valid point.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
cindy@earthen-vessels-pottery.com
http://www.earthen-vessels-pottery.com
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