potterybydai on mon 31 dec 01
Marianne said: ".....we should allow a reasonable length of time to pass so
the author can earn sales revenues first."
My first reaction was to agree wholeheartedly----then I started thinking
that sometimes a nice recipe from a publication (or one cut from a new CD)
has acted as a "teaser", and prompted me to buy the book (or CD). I
certainly don't think someone should be relaying recipes by the dozens, via
clayart, from anyone's book---new or old---but a recipe that they've mixed
and found to be great for them inspires more of us to investigate that
author. IMHO only.
Dai in Kelowna, BC, starting to prepare for our annual New Year's Day Crepe
Brunch tomorrow---sparkling wines, many crepe fillings, wonderful friends
and neighbours (both clay and non-clay people). A great way to start the
New Year! Then it's all downhill, as I plunge into a week of
studio-cleaning :(
"Never put off until tomorrow that which can be avoided altogether."
attributed to Ann Landers
Marianne Lombardo on mon 31 dec 01
Hi everyone.=20
I have seen recipes posted from recently published books, and just want =
to express my personal viewpoint on that subject. I don't think we =
should really do that. I'm know these are innocently posted, and people =
just have questions or comments. But perhaps it isn't really fair to =
the author of the book.=20
=20
While I would love to have the recipe for the Light Stormy Blue in =
JH/RR's new book, since I can't spend $75 (Can.) for another couple of =
months, I will just have to wait until I have the money. Clayart is =
about sharing, but in this case, I think we should allow a reasonable =
length of time to pass so the author can earn sales revenues first. =20
We all need the income, be it from selling pots, or writing books, or =
both. (I have simply *got* to figure out how to start selling some =
pots!)
However, I do not see any moral problems with posting recipes from older =
books that everyone has had ample opportunity to buy, or obtain from a =
library for free.
I would like to wish everyone a very happy New Year! I sincerely hope =
that the year 2002 will be a LOT better than 2001. I guess it's too =
much to wish for peace on this world of ours, but perhaps more peaceful =
would be nice.
Going to have a quiet New Year's eve tonight at my daughter's home, =
making clay beads with my little grandaughter and then the adults get to =
play cards. Never did get a chance to get any bead wire, but I will try =
standing them upon an unglazed end for now.
Marianne Lombardo
Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Earl Brunner on tue 1 jan 02
Yeah, don't any of you be sharing my recipes out of the cookbook until they are
through the second printing and all sold. (just kidding)
potterybydai wrote:
> Marianne said: ".....we should allow a reasonable length of time to pass so
> the author can earn sales revenues first."
> My first reaction was to agree wholeheartedly----then I started thinking
> that sometimes a nice recipe from a publication (or one cut from a new CD)
> has acted as a "teaser", and prompted me to buy the book (or CD). I
> certainly don't think someone should be relaying recipes by the dozens, via
> clayart, from anyone's book---new or old---but a recipe that they've mixed
> and found to be great for them inspires more of us to investigate that
> author. IMHO only.
>
> Dai in Kelowna, BC, starting to prepare for our annual New Year's Day Crepe
> Brunch tomorrow---sparkling wines, many crepe fillings, wonderful friends
> and neighbours (both clay and non-clay people). A great way to start the
> New Year! Then it's all downhill, as I plunge into a week of
> studio-cleaning :(
>
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Alisa og Claus Clausen on tue 1 jan 02
Dear Marianne,
You more or less read my mind on this subject.
Both with Ron and John's book and Mike's I have had this thought.
I hope to buy them both, and test the glazes.
But, as I usually post the recipes and results to Clayart of the glazes I
test, I was thinking that
this would have to be different. Of course even with any of the recipes
from the book posted on Clayart, I am sure there are still two lifetimes
worth of information in both books, making them necessIary reading,
especially for the cone 6er. All of the recipes I have tested and posted
are recipes I have reaped from the internet. These include recipes I have
taken off of Frogpond's website. I do not think there are any
exceptions.There are a few have specifically asked for permission to post
recipe and results from the person who gave the recipe. Otherwise, they
are recipes I tinkered around with or ones I made up in my studio.
So, bottom line, I looking forward to testing a lot of recipes from both
these books, but will not be posting the recipes, maybe just my results, if
that is interesting.
If I was an author of a new book, I would like it to be this way.
Maybe John, Ron, Mike have something to add or discuss?
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
MaryBeth Bishop on tue 1 jan 02
I don't know that I think we should change the way we deal with glaze recipes
whether they come from a new or old book. I'm open to whatever standards we
agree on but most of the recipes we discuss I have in books on my shelf.
That doesn't change the fact that tweaking them involves discussing the
recipe.
We all know, or should know that recipes don't usually travel well and
require some tinkering to fit our clays and chemicals and water and firing
methods and so on. The discussions have been really helpful to me and I have
gotten much better at problem solving and modifying glazes thanks to these
discussions.
Alisa's work and the responses to it have been a big part of that. Also
getting Insight and working with Ian Currie's books. By the time I have run
an idea through all of these and go into the studio to mix my test batches, I
find I am increasingly close to getting something useful from the start.
Anyway, I know we can't make group decisions based on the habits of one
person, but glaze recipe postings have never kept me from buying the book.
There is so much more information in any of the books I have than just the
recipes. I am sort of rambling here, but I really don't see how we can
discuss a glaze without referring to its formulation.
I've already ordered my copy of Ron and John's book. I'll bet most of us
have. The recipes are not the biggest reason to buy the book. The
information about glaze formulation is what they bring to us. The recipes
are examples. Anyway I am going on too long about this and don't want to
start an argument over it, but really most people start out just collecting
some recipes, mixing them up, getting frustrated because they don't "turn
out" and then finally getting down to learning something about glazes...or
not.
That's an individual thing. If someone just wants the glaze recipes without
the information they'll get them anyway. After all, Ron and John give some
away at NCECA. I know there is a lot of copycat work out there at all levels
and I can be quite cranky about that; but really, if we give 100 people the
same clay, the same glazes and the same assignment, we will come up with 100
different pots. That's just the beautiful thing about creative endeavor.
The generosity of other potters is one of the things that drew me away from
photography and into clay. I really don't want us to change that, even if it
costs us a few rip-offs here and there. Anyway, why don't we all just buy
the book. We buy books all the time. Then it becomes less of an issue and
we'll get more out of the testing and discussions. Like I said, whatever we
do won't matter to me. I'll have the recipes. I think it's the idea of
holding back information that bothers me...a philosophical twinge.
Best of everything for all of you in 2002,
Mary Beth Bishop
Marianne Lombardo on tue 1 jan 02
Dear Alisa;
I think if you did not post the actual recipe, just the results of your
testing it would be nice. I do have Mike's book and as soon as I get enough
pots made to fire I will be trying some of those recipes. My intent is also
to post the results that I obtained. Of course, everyone must keep in mind
that because of all the variables involved it is likely that no two results
will be exactly the same.
As for recipes in older books available in libraries, posted in Clayart or
somewhere else on the Intenet, that's entirely different. It's useful to
see the recipe as well as hear the results.
Happy glaze testing!
Marianne
John Hesselberth on tue 1 jan 02
on 1/1/02 11:47 AM, Alisa og Claus Clausen at aliskin@MAIL.DK wrote:
> So, bottom line, I looking forward to testing a lot of recipes from both
> these books, but will not be posting the recipes, maybe just my results, =
if
> that is interesting.
>=20
> If I was an author of a new book, I would like it to be this way.
>=20
> Maybe John, Ron, Mike have something to add or discuss?
Hi Alisa and everyone,
This is a delicate subject and I'm somewhat hesitant to respond, but what
the heck. I've been in hot water before; I may as well be again. As I
think everyone knows, I am a big supporter of sharing information and
knowledge about our craft. But there are instance where I think that is not
appropriate in a open forum like Clayart. I would personally be disappointe=
d
if our glaze recipes started showing up in public forums like Clayart while
the book is in its youth. There are at least two reasons I feel this way.
Writing a book of the type Ron and I have is an enormous commitment of both
time and money. For example we have invested several thousand dollars in
the laboratory testing of the glazes we have developed. No glazes in any
other book I am aware of have been tested as thoroughly as ours. This wasn'=
t
done with any grant; we didn't have any spigot of public money we could tap
into. It was done from the depths of our own pockets. Selling books is the
only way we have to recover that money to say nothing of getting some
compensation for a very substantial part of two years of our lives. In
addition we have the expense of self-publishing--that was the only way we
could see recovering our research costs. That adds many thousand more
dollars to what we have at risk. I'm not complaining at all; we took those
risks with our eyes open, and would do it again it a heartbeat. It has bee=
n
a lot of fun and very educational. But we would like a fair chance of
recovering that money or at least most of it.
Equally as important is that the recipes won't necessarily give good result=
s
if they are mixed and fired any old way. Just taking a recipe and putting
it in the hands of an average potter will yield disappointing results a
significant percentage of the time. We have been very careful to describe
our procedures thoroughly so that people can duplicate our results. We are
trying hard to avoid the "recipes don't travel well" syndrome, but that doe=
s
require that people actually read a good percentage of the book to
understand how we got our results. As you may guess from my numerous posts
on the subject, several of the glazes require slow cooling to get our
results--they simply won't work in the typical under-insulated electric kil=
n
that is turned off with a Kiln Sitter=AE and left to cool. Slow cooling is
not something that more than a tiny percentage of cone 6 potters do today,
but we are convinced it is one of the keys to beautiful glazes at cone 6.
We really want people to be successful with our glazes and just passing the
recipes around is a certain route to disappointment with some of them.
So, bottom line: I'd prefer that our recipes not be shared on Clayart and I
know Ron feels the same way. They are there in the book for all to read an=
d
use--but please read the book first so you maximize your chances of being
successful with them.
Regards,
John
P.S. We are absolutely delighted with your response to our prepublication
offer. Your purchases exceeded our goal by about 50% and were almost in the
"beyond our wildest dreams" category. Thank you all very much!
web sites: http://www.masteringglazes.com and http://www.frogpondpottery.co=
m
EMail: john@frogpondpottery.com
"It is, perhaps, still necessary to say that the very best glazes cannot
conceal badly shaped pots..." David Green, Pottery Glazes
Tony Ferguson on wed 2 jan 02
I was just wondering how many of you have given a friend your favorite soup,
salad, main course, etc recipe from a book you purchased?
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
315 N. Lake Ave. Apt. 401
Duluth, MN 55806
USA
218.727.6339
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
http://www.AquariusArtGallery.com
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Ron Roy on wed 2 jan 02
I'm grateful for this discussion - it's helping me frame my attitude
towards publishing recipes from books - or should I say reframe my attitude
- it is suddenly a more important subject for me.
When I saw a recipe posted from Mike Bailey's book some weeks ago I was
shocked - but I said - Oh it's just because of our book and I said nothing
- besides - it will look as if I am looking after my own interests. I am
still not sure I made the right decision.
I very much like the idea of sharing information - as I am sure you all
have ample evidence. Makes me want to let everyone share everything but
there are - or should be some rules.
I would never share information that the author did not want me to. Not
here or in print or verbally. I know this is beside the point here but just
setting the mind frame.
John and I have mortgaged the homestead to make this book happen - well
maybe not that much - but enough to keep me going for years. If we are not
commercially successful with this book we will not do another - there are
more pleasant ways to spend our golden years. That would be a shame because
there is much work still to be done - This book raises the bar but there is
lots more to do.
I know there are some who will want the information we have worked so hard
to document for nothing - I would feel good if you all made it as difficult
as possible for them to get it.
On the other hand - some of the information included is so important that I
want you to give it away any chance you get - In the end I cannot decide
for you - as for myself - I will not post any of the recipes from our book
- and I expect John will be of the same mind.
By the way - some of you voiced some concern about how the writing of this
book would affect our relationship. We still don't agree on everything -
and never will - and essential ingredient for successful collaboration -
but speaking for myself - John has been the perfect co-author - hard
working - considerate - dedicated - trustworthy - if I had made a wish list
up before hand I would only have had half the attributes on it that John
brought to the job.
What did we disagree on? To tell the truth I can't remember - is that age
or friendship? Frankly I don't give a damn I'm just very happy it all
worked out that way.
RR
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
Cindi Anderson on wed 2 jan 02
I don't see what the age of a book has to do with anything. Either you
think it's wrong to publish recipes or you think it is right.
When I first got into ceramics I was very concerned about copyright. I
asked Richard Zakin about it at NCECA a couple years back. He said of
course people could use anything in his books, he didn't mind at all. My
experience since has been that potters are completely open and sharing, and
knowing that, if someone didn't want potters exchanging and discussing their
recipes they wouldn't put them in a book. I think it is silly to think that
someone would not buy a book because they already got some recipes here,
rather they are probably more likely to buy the book. Somehow in my mind
that makes me feel that it is ok.
Since the recipes are part of a copyrighted book however, the best solution
to this problem long term would be for the author/publisher to state in the
book what they will allow and what they won't.
Cindi
Fremont, CA
Alisa og Claus Clausen on wed 2 jan 02
Good John, I am personally pleased with your response.
After I wrote my opinion, I thought maybe I will be told that I have an
un-sharing attitude.
In most aspects of our craft, I believe greatly in sharing and positive
reinforcement to realize and support a forward moving, positive ceramic
community, worldwide.
However, I totally respect your viewpoint on this subject. It is not that
you are not sharing. That is ridiculous. On the contrary, you and Ron have
worked hard for a pair of years, at least. The book will help people
realize better glazes by getting them to read the information necessary to
get a recipe to be a success. Make them thirsty, keep them a little dry, by
not over quenching the thirst. Mel taught me also that spoon feeding has
it's drawbacks. Expenses are expenses and sometimes it is true, Charity
starts at home. I think that is awesome we have access to all that you two
have been doing. The book is sharing exampelar!
About slow cooling, I have had much better glazes by just slow cooling to
900c, holding for one hour and then cool down. My new kiln cools much
faster than the old, so I had to go even slower. Still working it out. My
new computerized controller can help me there! Life is good!!!
Great wishes of success and I look forward to my copy. Thanks in
advance! I am psyched to get it in my hot little hands!
best regards from Alisa in Denmark
Timakia@AOL.COM on wed 2 jan 02
Interesting that the same subject that I was stoned for a year or two ago
comes out with a different coat on. Let the sun shine on people that try to
make a living out of their recipes!
Antoinette Badenhorst
http://hometown.aol.com/timakia
105 Westwood circle
Saltillo, MS
38866
L. P. Skeen on wed 2 jan 02
----- Original Message -----
From: Alisa og Claus Clausen
Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
> After I wrote my opinion, I thought maybe I will be told that I have an
> un-sharing attitude. In most aspects of our craft, I believe greatly in
sharing and positive
> reinforcement to realize and support a forward moving, positive ceramic
> community, worldwide.
There is much to be said for sharing; I have learned as much or more here
than I ever did in college. That said, I believe there comes a time to NOT
share. When sharing means I may or will lose part of my income to someone
else, I don't. However, like Joyce, I send people in the direction of
information.
I learned to make handmade soap back when there were only two listserves on
the subject. I learned more by READING BOOKS than by having someone give me
recipes and instruction, because there was nobody out there who was
teaching. When I got really good at it and began to sell my soaps, I
started teaching classes. My soapmaking class is 100% hands-on, not just
theory. I can't tell you how many people who swore they only wanted to
learn soapmaking for fun are now my competition. A given community can only
support so many people selling what is percieved as "the same thing".
A person came here from another country and showed me how to pit fire and
get great color. Though the person did not charge me a dime, believe me
when I tell you I PAID for the knowledge, because the person was here for
the longest THREE WEEKS of my life. [{I hear you snickering, Linda Riggs!}]
Since then I have been asked on numerous occasions to teach a pit firing
workshop here. "Please teach this workshop; I have been pit firing and
can't get anything but black and gray." Knowing some of the people who want
to take the workshop, and having that soapmaking class experience makes me
very leery of teaching such a class. There is only one other person in this
immediate area who is doing any pit firing, and he is not getting the color
I'm getting. Both of us sell well, because we make good quality work. If I
teach the pit firing workshop, then both the other guy and I have more
competition and lose sales. When people around here want to know about pit
firing, I send 'em to Karen Hessenberg's book.
I don't have a problem sharing information when it won't hurt my bottom
line, and would for example, go to another state to teach the workshop, but
IMO teaching particular tricks in your own back yard is like pooping in yer
nest - ya just don't do it.
L
Richard Aerni on wed 2 jan 02
Boy, this is a sticky issue, and I hate to get into this, but I'll add a
brief thought or two. I'm not sure of the legal ramifications of reprinting
and distributing copyrighted (sp?) material; perhaps there is a lawyer out
there who could elucidate the point. I do think, however, that when the
material is printed, the authors most probably hope, and expect, that people
will try the recipes if they are so inclined. There is a huge difference,
however, between one reader trying material, and someone taking it upon
themselves to post that copyrighted material willy nilly to thousands on the
net. This is just common sense. If you want material to be available to
you in future, don't injure those who are most apt to provide it. Whether
that is a legally defensible position or not, it seems to me to be a caring
and ethical one.
Another related point would be the question of giving credit where credit is
due when a recipe is posted. It would seem to be incumbant upon the poster,
when giving out a recipe or glaze to a public forum, to credit the
originator of that recipe. Seems pretty common sensical, I know. But, as
someone who has developed my own clay recipes and glaze recipes over the
course of the past twenty years, and who freely shares them at workshops,
with correspondants, with visiting potters, whatever, I have been in the
position over the past few years of seeing those same recipes posted in
public forums with others' names on them. It's a bit of a shame. I don't
mind sharing, but I do get my feelings hurt when the credit is not passed
on. We do live in a large, sharing community, and I believe we have the
duty to behave in a courteous and civilized manner to those in that
community.
My small two cents worth...
Richard Aerni
Bloomfield, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindi Anderson
> I don't see what the age of a book has to do with anything. Either you
> think it's wrong to publish recipes or you think it is right.
>
> When I first got into ceramics I was very concerned about copyright. I
> asked Richard Zakin about it at NCECA a couple years back. He said of
> course people could use anything in his books, he didn't mind at all. My
> experience since has been that potters are completely open and sharing,
and
> knowing that, if someone didn't want potters exchanging and discussing
Tim Lynch on wed 2 jan 02
As a high school English teacher one of my biggest tasks is to get the
student to determine meaning from context. You can take a quote out of
context and slap it on every telephone pole in town. It may say what you
want it to but has absolutely no reference to the author's meaning because
it was taken out of context. Glaze recipes from books are the same. It
looks nice and simple on paper but once you mix it up and put it on your
pots, fire them, only to have the glaze bubble or pinhole, you begin to
wonder what was left out of the process. I gotta have the book so I can go
back and refer to how the glaze was mixed and fired. I gotta have the book
so I know the author's frame of mind when the book was written. I gotta
have the book so I can look at the pictures. I gotta have the book because
there is always room in my library for one more. I gotta have the book so I
can support the author in their efforts to educate.
Tim, in Wenatchee, WA., USA, where it is trying to snow.
--
Tim Lynch
The Clay Man
1117 Tedford St SE
East Wenatchee, WA 98802
hifired@earthlink.net
On 1/2/02 12:21 AM, "Cindi Anderson" wrote:
> I don't see what the age of a book has to do with anything. Either you
> think it's wrong to publish recipes or you think it is right.
>
> When I first got into ceramics I was very concerned about copyright. I
> asked Richard Zakin about it at NCECA a couple years back. He said of
> course people could use anything in his books, he didn't mind at all. My
> experience since has been that potters are completely open and sharing, and
> knowing that, if someone didn't want potters exchanging and discussing their
> recipes they wouldn't put them in a book. I think it is silly to think that
> someone would not buy a book because they already got some recipes here,
> rather they are probably more likely to buy the book. Somehow in my mind
> that makes me feel that it is ok.
>
> Since the recipes are part of a copyrighted book however, the best solution
> to this problem long term would be for the author/publisher to state in the
> book what they will allow and what they won't.
>
> Cindi
> Fremont, CA
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Alisa og Claus Clausen on wed 2 jan 02
Dear Lisa, Mary Beth and Mel ,John and the others whose opinions are
spinning around in my head.
I am getting bogged down in the thought process.
In theory, I believe in what I said as my practice of sharing to realize
and support a forward moving, positive ceramic community, worldwide.
Then I clearly remember a post I wrote trying to weigh if my sharing made me
generous or an idiot.
Tricks. During my entire career at Syracuse, I never got Henry Gernhardt's
blue glaze. No one did. David MacDonald freely gave me his Tessha which he
uses all the time. Two potters in the same department, both great teachers,
both with different outlooks on sharing. I like the blue, wanted it, but
survived without it. Used Tessha twice as much.
But again, I could say I do some things like Lisa's pit firing. I do not
hand out really juicy recipes to the lazy, taker, free loader person in the
studio, who would glaze his pots and say, see what a great glaze I made. I
would and do for the people who try to work out glazes and in between just
say, this a glaze I got from Alisa or one Alisa tweaked. If I have Alisa's
Pot Shop as I do, and two stores down is Hampus' Pot Shop, and we worked
collaboratively, I would share. If Hampus was a boasting, selfish jerk, I
would let him figure out his own ugly glazes. How do you know when to
share without boarders and when to be selective?
I do not think one overall policy can be stuck to.
For anyone who has made clay for any reasonable length of time, who in
general is a sharer of info.,
has probably at least once experienced Mel's experience of being ripped
off. But when at a large workshop with people from all the globe, I have
no secrets. If these people at the same workshop all had Pot Shops in my
area, would I be as generous? I DO NOT KNOW, and that bothers me greatly.
In my hearts of hearts, I would like to get Ron and John's book, test what
I will and report as usual.
But, since my philosophy is getting some holes pricked in it, I will
respect John and Ron's wishes not to.
That is probably why I asked in the first place, to do the right thing by
them. Since I have so many doubts right now about one blanket philosophy,
I will simply respect their wishes, they wrote the book.
A lot of my recipes come from books, both old and new, from Behrens to
Hamer and Hamer. As Mary Beth said, these recipes would not at all have
intrigued me if I did not have the books. I never thought about old or new
recipes until Ron and John's book. I think Ron and John are talking
about having a chance to earn on the newness of the information. Maybe six
months go by and they change their opinion because they sold more copies
than they ever dreamed of. Bang, 100 e-mails from me to the list!!
I too am rambling because I cannot really get it straightened out in my
head tonight. I think they will sell a lot of books and I think a lot of
people will be using their glazes, whether they get them first hand from
their own copy of the book or from someone who passed them along.
I have weighed that sending results without a recipe is not worthwhile. If
someone else on the list wants to compare, we can do that privately. I
have had very good results with glazes traveling. I change around
sometimes the Frits or Whiting to Wollastonite, or lose the Bentonite. But
no serious tweaking in general. There will always be a difference in local
materials. But maybe the atmospheres in electric oxidation firings with
comparable ramps are similar enough from kiln to kiln to get comparable
results. I cannot think that I have just been lucky all these tests later.
Oh, the bottom line again on my last post for this subject. I would like
to test and post the glazes, but will not post them because John and Ron
ask that we do not. For now. Otherwise, same procedure as last year for
testing and posting. Test and tell. Just got to get out there.
Mel, I am reasonably embarrassed that I bragged about myself getting in the
newspaper. It was because nobody on the list gets the "Aabenraa
Budstikken" (that I know of) and it was about the Chapel. Shame on
me. Where is Janet anyway? Computer maybe down again.
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
MaryBeth Bishop on wed 2 jan 02
Dear Alisa,
No rule fits all circumstances. I am so glad you shared your triumphs. I
don't think that was at all what Mel was talking about.
I remember one of my best friends used to reply to people who asked for a
glaze recipe she used...it was integral to a body of work and a Val Cushing
glaze but she always answered she would be glad to sell them the pot but she
didn't share her glazes. Not altogether true, but she didn't share that
glaze. After we had known eachother for about 2 years I told her I had the
recipe but never used it while we were in the same studio. I had/have others
that fit my work just as well or better. So it wasn't a personal sacrifice.
I get no credit there. But I did agree with her decision to hold her
information close. I thought she was really good at being charming and
assertive at the same time.
So, I agree with both sides of this discussion. I think it will all settle
out naturally. It really is Ron and John's call. I'm fine with that. What
I need is to get my life sorted out and get back to the studio. Do my work
and find out what I don't know.
Cheers,
Mary Beth Bishop
Cindy Griffis on wed 2 jan 02
RR wrote: >>
I very much like the idea of sharing information - as I am sure you
all have ample evidence. Makes me want to let everyone share
everything but there are - or should be some rules.>>
I want to own John and Ron's book because I'm sure it will be a work
of art in and of itself. And, I cherish the opportunity to learn
more about our craft. If I'm never able to duplicate their beautiful
glazes, I'll be a better potter for their efforts and feel they
should be rewarded! I only wish the book would arrive soon!
I have learned so much from the generous and talented folks on
Clayart---not just about Clay either....about being a supportive and
considerate person. I'm pleased to be part of the crowd watching the
parade and often mention things I've read (about life, etc.) to
friends and family who have no interest in clay, but do care about
people.
Thanks,
Cindy Griffis
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Ababi on thu 3 jan 02
---------- Original Message ----------
>Dear Lisa, Mary Beth and Mel ,John and the others whose opinions are
>spinning around in my head.
>I am getting bogged down in the thought process.
>In theory, I believe in what I said as my practice of sharing to realize
>and support a forward moving, positive ceramic community, worldwide.
Some time ago, there was a thread( there were) about copyrights.
I was "afraid" the Marines will land in my studio and arrest me. I
stopped sending recipes.
one week
two weeks
So?
I started to send recipes again, the way I did before.
>Then I clearly remember a post I wrote trying to weigh if my sharing
>made me
>generous or an idiot.
About myself: I test a lot I make a little. When I post, you might use
it
If I would not it would all lost.
I wrote before: The advises I get from you, all, are equal or better
than what I send.
About you:
You are great Alisa
Ababi Sharon
Kibbutz Shoval- Israel
Glaze addict
ababisha@shoval.org.il
http://members4.clubphoto.com/ababi306910/
http://www.milkywayceramics.com/cgallery/asharon.htm
http://www.israelceramics.org/
iandol on thu 3 jan 02
Though I have not yet seen this new book, the pre publication hype =
suggests that there is a lot more written than recipes, a lot about the =
why's and wherefore's, a lot of explaining why things are best done =
this way and not that, a lot about the best ways to fire and to apply =
the principles so that you can achieve the optimum potential of the =
glaze recipes you may invent for yourself.
Many periodicals produced for the Ceramic arts and Amateur Pottery =
league insist that, wherever possible, recipes be included with =
articles. I have noticed that pots which are illustrated may mot even =
use some of these mixtures,they are included as part of the =
"biographical" detail of featured artists. What amazes me is that so may =
people appear borrow so much from so few. I hope the book by Ron and =
John leads to some articles which start by saying "I developed the =
following glazes using the Principles of J & R..." and then treat us to =
something we have never seen before, a new invention, a new inspiration.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
bruec@anv.net on thu 3 jan 02
I wouldn't want to hurt or detract from John and Ron's hard work, however books that are published are meant to be used, =
and I don't remember anyone having any trouble "sharing" formulas from other books in the past. If it's a good book it w=
ill be bought.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Tony Ferguson fergyart@YAHOO.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:03:14 -0800
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
I was just wondering how many of you have given a friend your favorite soup,
salad, main course, etc recipe from a book you purchased?
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
315 N. Lake Ave. Apt. 401
Duluth, MN 55806
USA
218.727.6339
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku
http://www.AquariusArtGallery.com
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Paul Lewing on thu 3 jan 02
on 1/2/02 11:03 PM, Tony Ferguson at fergyart@YAHOO.COM wrote:
> I was just wondering how many of you have given a friend your favorite soup,
> salad, main course, etc recipe from a book you purchased?
I have to go along with Tony on this one. I see glaze recipes that are
published in glaze books as the same as food recipes from cookbooks.
They're there to be shared, and I don't see the difference in sharing them
immediately when a book comes out and sharing them ten years later. I've
always thought that if you want to keep your recipes private, fine, do that.
But once you give one out, even to one person, it's out there for all the
world to use.
I guess I picked that up from my hero, Dave Shaner. How many of us have
used a Shaner recipe? How many times have you seen one published in a book
or article? Dave never got, or expected, a dime from that. Or let's take a
recipe from Ron and John's book- Javier's Warm Green. Did Javier get paid
for that glaze? I see it in Clay Times, too. I know they pay you if you
send in a glaze like that- I've done it. But they pay you the same if it's
a recipe you invented or if it's one you got from someplace else. For that
matter, is anyone more or less likely to buy that book if all the recipes in
it were invented from the start by Ron and John than if they were
republishing recipes that were already out there? I certainly plan to get a
copy of it, and I wouldn't care where any recipes came from. For me, the
recipes are way less important than the research and information in the
book, which I'm sure will be ground-breaking. I think if you're buying
glaze texts for the recipes, you're missing the point.
In Michael Bailey's excellent book, there's one of my recipes. I didn't get
a thing for that except a free copy of the book. But the book wouldn't be
one whit less useful if mine wasn't there, and it wouldn't be any more
useful if it had 50 more recipes. Also, mine was adapted from a Dave Shaner
recipe. He didn't get anything from it either, but then again, it's changed
so much no one would recognize it, even him. If you use that recipe,
neither Michael nor I get anything out of that, and if you change it
significantly, you can put your name on it and publish it any way you like.
It's fine with me.
I've been giving that recipe out for years, in that book, in CM articles, on
Clayart, in my own workshop handout. Sure, Michael's book is copyrighted,
but when the identical information is out there in uncopyrighted form, who
cares?
I say, if you want to keep secrets, keep secrets. But once it's out there,
it's out there for everybody. It's not like anybody's getting rich
inventing glaze recipes, you know.
Paul Lewing, Seattle
John Post on thu 3 jan 02
The solution to this problem is really quite simple....
Each new glaze book needs to be sold with a "secret decoder ring".
Recipes that need to be discussed are then sent to clayart in code.
Only those who own the book and thus have the "secret decoder ring" will be
able to make sense of the recipe.
Secret decoder rings should made out of a well vitrified clay so they are
microwave and foodsafe and glazed in any color except floating blue...
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan...
"Just like public radio... all opinions expressed here are solely my own..."
Cindi Anderson on fri 4 jan 02
Can't you name it too? Seems a lot easier to keep straight in our minds.
Cindi
Fremont, cA
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. P. Skeen"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
> Ok, so we can say:
>
> To all y'all who have Ron and John's book, I would like to discuss the
glaze
> on page 47. Here is what I did and here is what happened, what did I do
> wrong?
>
> How's that?
>
> L
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liz Gowen"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
>
>
> > Jon wrote
> > > The solution to this problem is really quite simple....
> > >
> > > Each new glaze book needs to be sold with a "secret decoder ring".
> >
> >
> > Not far from my thought except we could reference the page number
> > and the glaze name from the book. It would be like a class text. I'd
> > hate to see some of this work not be able to be taken to the next
> > level of discussion. Would also hate to not have further research
> > done and books written because it becomes totally non cost
> > effective. I've ordered mine.
> > Liz Gowen NJ USA
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
carrie jacobson on fri 4 jan 02
I can hardly believe what I am hearing from this group about the request not
to share glazes from this book right off. The small-minded, self-interested
response is so unlike this list, and so hard to tolerate, in light of what
Ron and John have given us over the years.
These two have volunteered their opinions and their experience countless
times. They have answered every question directed at them, and volunteered
answers to hundreds more.
They are among the more active participants on ClayArt, and never, ever have
I heard one of them ask anything in return. Rarely, in fact, has either of
them asked us, the vast unwashed mass of potters here, for help or
assistance.
Now, they've written a book, one that they hope to sell. They have sunk
their own money into it, and their own time, and somehow, while they've been
writing this book, they've still managed to answer our questions on ClayArt.
They have not written this book just to make themselves feel good. They
deserve to sell the damn thing, make back their money and, in my opinion,
make a profit. A big one. They deserve it.
These two guys are not saying Don't Share. They're saying - Don't Share
until people have the chance to buy the book. They're asking that the best
formulas in their book - formulas that I bet they developed for safety,
color and fit - not be tossed about immediately like some recipe for
Floating Blue.
I would also wager that, connected to that request, is the concept that
making glazes involves far more than just mixing up a bunch of materials. If
we just do that, we're missing the philosophy and thought, the
understanding, behind the glazes.
So quit your whining, buy the book, and be thankful that Ron and John have
graced us with their knowledge and passion for all these years.
Carrie Jacobson
Bolsters Mills, Maine
iandol on fri 4 jan 02
I recall it being said at a glaze workshop many years ago, that when a =
potter or ceramic artist is willing to share their recipes then, if they =
are doing their job properly, their recent research has revealled =
superior original glazes. It is their superseded glazes they are giving =
away. So when it comes to those juried shows, they are the ones with the =
innovations which gain all the prizes.
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
Ron Roy on fri 4 jan 02
Hi Alisa,
John and I welcome any test results posted here - on any of the glazes in
our book - good and bad.
We encourage such sharing in the book and we are interested in collecting
and publishing such results.
We also encourage everyone to try different colours and combinations - in
fact add to the basic information in all ways - it is part of the intent of
the book - to build a library of stable glazes.
There is no reason not to publish results and we encourage everyone to do
just that - what we would prefer is that you not publish the recipe. Why
not simply say where anyone can purchase them.
There is much more involved in our book than just recipes - how to fire and
cool is an essential part of the results. I don't even think you can get
the results John got with "normal" firings.
All we need is to have potters trying to get the wonderful results you will
find pictured on our web page - without understanding how they were
obtained - posting bad reviews - and effectively limiting sales for us.
We are trying to do something that has never been done before - what we
need is for as many potters as possible to realize the significance of our
experiment and help us set an example that will influence future literature
on the subject.
RR
>You more or less read my mind on this subject.
>Both with Ron and John's book and Mike's I have had this thought.
>I hope to buy them both, and test the glazes.
>
>But, as I usually post the recipes and results to Clayart of the glazes I
>test, I was thinking that
>this would have to be different. Of course even with any of the recipes
>from the book posted on Clayart, I am sure there are still two lifetimes
>worth of information in both books, making them necessIary reading,
>especially for the cone 6er. All of the recipes I have tested and posted
>are recipes I have reaped from the internet. These include recipes I have
>taken off of Frogpond's website. I do not think there are any
>exceptions.There are a few have specifically asked for permission to post
>recipe and results from the person who gave the recipe. Otherwise, they
>are recipes I tinkered around with or ones I made up in my studio.
>
>So, bottom line, I looking forward to testing a lot of recipes from both
>these books, but will not be posting the recipes, maybe just my results, if
>that is interesting.
>
>If I was an author of a new book, I would like it to be this way.
>
>Maybe John, Ron, Mike have something to add or discuss?
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
John Hesselberth on fri 4 jan 02
on 1/3/02 11:02 PM, Ron Roy at ronroy@TOTAL.NET wrote:
> John and I welcome any test results posted here - on any of the glazes in
> our book - good and bad.
>
> We encourage such sharing in the book and we are interested in collecting
> and publishing such results.
>
> We also encourage everyone to try different colours and combinations - in
> fact add to the basic information in all ways - it is part of the intent of
> the book - to build a library of stable glazes.
>
> There is no reason not to publish results and we encourage everyone to do
> just that - what we would prefer is that you not publish the recipe. Why
> not simply say where anyone can purchase them.
>
> There is much more involved in our book than just recipes - how to fire and
> cool is an essential part of the results. I don't even think you can get
> the results John got with "normal" firings.
I fully agree with Ron here and would like to add another word or two (well,
maybe more than that).
It is an unfortunate (in my view) fact of life that there are quite a few
potters who only want the recipe. They could care less about learning about
what makes a decent, attractive glaze. Give them the recipe and they are
off to their studio to mix and fire. Those potters plus the manufacturers
who produce kilns that are terribly underinsulated, but cheap and easy to
use are, in my opinion, what has given cone 6 electric firing a
sometimes-bad name. It frankly is too easy to become a cone 6 potter. Gas
firing has an inherent advantage that you have to learn a little bit about
what you are doing before you can fire. People almost always learn to fire
a gas kiln while being mentored by someone who knows their stuff. I would
wager that most people who fire electric teach themselves by skimming the
manual, putting a small cone in the kiln sitter and turning it on to see
what happens. I know that's how I learned initially.
The fact is that electric kilns fired to cone 6 can produce glazes/pots that
are just as beautiful as cone 10 reduction firing. There are some things
you can do with reduction that you can't do in oxidation and vice versa.
But on balance the glazes can be equally durable and attractive. But that's
not what we tend to see come out of electric kilns. We too often see
glossy, boring glazes or underfired mattes that aren't durable. And, yes,
we even see that from some glaze manufacturers who ought to know better but
apparently do not.
But to get good results from an electric kiln you have to put the same
level of effort and attention into learning how to fire the kiln and
supervising the actual firing as you would for a gas kiln. You probably
have to put more effort into learning how to formulate a decent glaze. A lot
of people either don't understand this or don't want to put that effort in.
That's one of the things we are trying to begin to change with this book. We
are trying to raise the bar and by proving that superb glazes can be made in
an electric kiln, make those garbage glazes (like I showed at NCECA last
year and will again in the Clayart room this year) unacceptable.
We know how to get started and that is in the book, but we also know there
is much more to be learned. So we do want people to take what they learn
from our book and extend it, experiment with it, discuss it, continue to
help potters learn how to get the best from electric cone 6 in the same way
that potters have learned to get the best from gas. That's not to say that
all is known that can be known about gas reduction firing either. There are
still plenty of unstable, ill-fitting glazes being used at cone 10 (hmmm, is
there another book in that statement, Ron??). But the gas-firers are
farther along the learning curve because they have had to be.
Does that make sense?
Regards,
John
web sites: http://www.masteringglazes.com and http://www.frogpondpottery.com
EMail: john@frogpondpottery.com
"It is, perhaps, still necessary to say that the very best glazes cannot
conceal badly shaped pots..." David Green, Pottery Glazes
Liz Gowen on fri 4 jan 02
Jon wrote
> The solution to this problem is really quite simple....
>
> Each new glaze book needs to be sold with a "secret decoder ring".
Not far from my thought except we could reference the page number
and the glaze name from the book. It would be like a class text. I'd
hate to see some of this work not be able to be taken to the next
level of discussion. Would also hate to not have further research
done and books written because it becomes totally non cost
effective. I've ordered mine.
Liz Gowen NJ USA
Wanda Holmes on fri 4 jan 02
Thanks, Liz. You've solved the problem for me. When I get John's and Ron's
book and I need to discuss my experience with their glazes, I'll refer to
the glaze title and page number. Seems a good way to keep lines of
discussion open while respecting their wishes regarding their work.
Wanda
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Liz Gowen
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:28 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
Jon wrote
> The solution to this problem is really quite simple....
>
> Each new glaze book needs to be sold with a "secret decoder ring".
Not far from my thought except we could reference the page number
and the glaze name from the book. It would be like a class text. I'd
hate to see some of this work not be able to be taken to the next
level of discussion. Would also hate to not have further research
done and books written because it becomes totally non cost
effective. I've ordered mine.
Liz Gowen NJ USA
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
L. P. Skeen on fri 4 jan 02
Ok, so we can say:
To all y'all who have Ron and John's book, I would like to discuss the glaze
on page 47. Here is what I did and here is what happened, what did I do
wrong?
How's that?
L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Liz Gowen"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Posting Recipes from Newly Published Books
> Jon wrote
> > The solution to this problem is really quite simple....
> >
> > Each new glaze book needs to be sold with a "secret decoder ring".
>
>
> Not far from my thought except we could reference the page number
> and the glaze name from the book. It would be like a class text. I'd
> hate to see some of this work not be able to be taken to the next
> level of discussion. Would also hate to not have further research
> done and books written because it becomes totally non cost
> effective. I've ordered mine.
> Liz Gowen NJ USA
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
potterybydai on sat 5 jan 02
Wanda said: "When I get John's and Ron's
book ...........I'll refer to the glaze title and page number."
Marvelous idea, and so simple! The decoder rings would just have added to
the cost of the book, anyhow . This method can be used for any recipe
from any book; however, those wishing advice from the group or Ron Roy or
any other glaze guru will first have to determine if these prospective
advisors have the book in question in their possession, and are able to
refer to it---otherwise they will have to post the recipe to these people
off-list. Then the rest of us won't have the advantage of learning from
these questions. Geez! Just when I thought it was going to be all worked
out at last!
Dai in Kelowna, BC
"Never put off until tomorrow that which can be avoided altogether."
attributed to Ann Landers
Alisa og Claus Clausen on sat 5 jan 02
Dear Ron,
It is satisfying to have answers directly from the source.
I think that I could be kept gainfully employed by testing the book's
offerings, introducing different firing ramps, adding colorants and
layering. This is no different from my normal drill.
I believe that you and I are agreed now that I, and of course anyone, else
can test recipes, post the results, omit the recipe, discuss by name and
page reference, and give source where one can obtain the original recipes.
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
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