Alisa og Claus Clausen on fri 4 jan 02
Dear Clayart,
I have a question about fire brick.
My new Skutt kiln is great. I am however, concerned that the brick is so
soft. In the video and booklet, it says that minor chips make no
difference in the performance of the kiln. I know that from my old kiln,
as the brick work was in bad repair.
I see at the bottom of the kiln, where the very first element from the
bottom is, the ridge to hold the element back is cracked off. Part of the
element is hanging over the brick's broken edge. I do not want it to slump
even more with firings. I got a replacement brick from my supplier, but
the brick work is broken over two bricks. It is not difficult, but a pain,
to remove and replace the bricks.
Can I either mortar the element back into the groove with the high fire
mortar. Or, can I use a piece of Kanthral wire to pin the element into the
brick, similar to how the elements are pinned from the factory?
Why are the bricks so soft? Expansion requires it? With the new top loader
I have learned to avoid knocking into the thermo couple with the
shelves. The brick is concerning me because it is really able to just
crumble with no much force. This kiln needs to hold up at least 15
years. Maybe the brick needs to crack a little from the very beginning,
and then it stops more or less because the bricks get harder with
firings? My old kiln had soft bricks but not like this. I am not too
concerned about how the brick looks, but more that the elements stay where
they should.
Thanks in advance,
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
Earl Brunner on sat 5 jan 02
If you want to reposition the element, heat it to red heat with a torch of some
kind, then move the wire while it is still hot. You can then "staple" it in place
with a staple made from kanthal wire. I wouldn't mortar it. I also wouldn't mess
with replacing the bricks until you replace the elements. The elements are some
what brittle after having been heated.
Alisa og Claus Clausen wrote:
> Dear Clayart,
> I have a question about fire brick.
>
> My new Skutt kiln is great. I am however, concerned that the brick is so
> soft. In the video and booklet, it says that minor chips make no
> difference in the performance of the kiln. I know that from my old kiln,
> as the brick work was in bad repair.
>
> I see at the bottom of the kiln, where the very first element from the
> bottom is, the ridge to hold the element back is cracked off. Part of the
> element is hanging over the brick's broken edge. I do not want it to slump
> even more with firings. I got a replacement brick from my supplier, but
> the brick work is broken over two bricks. It is not difficult, but a pain,
> to remove and replace the bricks.
>
> Can I either mortar the element back into the groove with the high fire
> mortar. Or, can I use a piece of Kanthral wire to pin the element into the
> brick, similar to how the elements are pinned from the factory?
>
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Nils Lou on sat 5 jan 02
An easy way to repair small breaks and chips
get pint jar of itc100
and pint jar of itc200EZ
brush area with itc100, let dry
use itc200ez as mortar or even as filler
strong fix for any ifb repair
cheap, too
--nils
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Alisa og Claus Clausen wrote:
> Dear Clayart,
> I have a question about fire brick.
>
> My new Skutt kiln is great. I am however, concerned that the brick is so
> soft. In the video and booklet, it says that minor chips make no
> difference in the performance of the kiln. I know that from my old kiln,
> as the brick work was in bad repair.
>
> I see at the bottom of the kiln, where the very first element from the
> bottom is, the ridge to hold the element back is cracked off. Part of the
> element is hanging over the brick's broken edge. I do not want it to slump
> even more with firings. I got a replacement brick from my supplier, but
> the brick work is broken over two bricks. It is not difficult, but a pain,
> to remove and replace the bricks.
>
> Can I either mortar the element back into the groove with the high fire
> mortar. Or, can I use a piece of Kanthral wire to pin the element into the
> brick, similar to how the elements are pinned from the factory?
>
> Why are the bricks so soft? Expansion requires it? With the new top loader
> I have learned to avoid knocking into the thermo couple with the
> shelves. The brick is concerning me because it is really able to just
> crumble with no much force. This kiln needs to hold up at least 15
> years. Maybe the brick needs to crack a little from the very beginning,
> and then it stops more or less because the bricks get harder with
> firings? My old kiln had soft bricks but not like this. I am not too
> concerned about how the brick looks, but more that the elements stay where
> they should.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Best regards,
> Alisa in Denmark
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Steve Mills on sun 6 jan 02
When an element hangs over the edge we pin it back into place with a
piece of Kanthal wire shaped like half a paper clip; works a treat.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , Alisa og Claus Clausen writes
>Dear Clayart,
>I have a question about fire brick.
>
>My new Skutt kiln is great. I am however, concerned that the brick is so
>soft. In the video and booklet, it says that minor chips make no
>difference in the performance of the kiln. I know that from my old kiln,
>as the brick work was in bad repair.
>
>I see at the bottom of the kiln, where the very first element from the
>bottom is, the ridge to hold the element back is cracked off. Part of th=
>e
>element is hanging over the brick's broken edge. I do not want it to slu=
>mp
>even more with firings. I got a replacement brick from my supplier, but
>the brick work is broken over two bricks. It is not difficult, but a pai=
>n,
>to remove and replace the bricks.
>
>Can I either mortar the element back into the groove with the high fire
>mortar. Or, can I use a piece of Kanthral wire to pin the element into t=
>he
>brick, similar to how the elements are pinned from the factory?
>
>Why are the bricks so soft? Expansion requires it? With the new top load=
>er
>I have learned to avoid knocking into the thermo couple with the
>shelves. The brick is concerning me because it is really able to just
>crumble with no much force. This kiln needs to hold up at least 15
>years. Maybe the brick needs to crack a little from the very beginning,
>and then it stops more or less because the bricks get harder with
>firings? My old kiln had soft bricks but not like this. I am not too
>concerned about how the brick looks, but more that the elements stay wher=
>e
>they should.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Best regards,
>Alisa in Denmark
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
william schran on sun 6 jan 02
Alisa - Replacing the brick involves removing elements also, so I'd
wait to replace the brick for when elements are replaced. The bricks
are soft because they are "full of air", very porous, this is why
they are good insulators.
Wet the repair area with sponge, apply mortar to both broken
surfaces, press together, clean off excess mortar (some have fluxing
materials that can shorten element life) and carefully pin in place
with element pin.
If you need to press the slumping element back in place, use a torch
to heat to glowing red, and press back into place with piece of scrap
wood (using metal can damage element), then use pin to hold.
Bill
Alisa og Claus Clausen on sun 6 jan 02
Thanks everyone. I got the Kanthal wire yesterday and will make a pin.
Easy fix. I feel like I deserve this after the misery fixes all the time=20
with the old kiln..
Nils said get some ITC. I will buy a small amount of ITC when I get to the=
=20
states for small repairs of the brick.
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
aliskin@mail.dk
Varn=E6svej 171
DK 6200 Aabenraa
Denmark
Alisa's Pot Shop
Skolegade 3
6200 Aabenraa
Denmark
vince pitelka on fri 11 jan 02
> You are not unlike most kiln users who would like to get 15 or more years
of life from their kilns. We routinely see that and better in our kilns. We
were speaking just the other day with a well-known craft school that has had
in continual abusive use two L&L kilns from 1982. The element boxes had
finally rusted out and the control boxes needed some work but the INTERIOR
of the kiln was operational!
Stephen and L&L Kiln Company -
Please do not appologize for such a message being "self serving", because it
is very informative. Your description above of a "craft school that has had
in continual abusive use two L&L kilns from 1982" could apply to the
Appalachian Center for Crafts, because we too have two L&L kilns from about
that time. They have been in constant institutional use for 20 years, but
they keep on going. I think the primary reason they have lasted so long is
the high-fired element holders. Our control boxes are still in good shape.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Jones Pottery on fri 11 jan 02
Hello, I have seen several posts on the list about people having troubles
with L&L kilns. I have never had a problem with one and totally love the
ones I have owned. I must also say, I have NO relation to their company or
get any perks from them! (not that I would mind....) I just appreciate a
good product and knowing the L&L people read this list, want them to know
that. My first electric kiln was about 30 years old when I got it five years
ago. I sold it to another potter who still uses it.......amazing. I am still
using a j230 that was made in 1984 for bisque. I picked that one up at a
school auction for $75.
Take it easy,
Chris
Tommy Humphries on fri 11 jan 02
We need more manufacturers to get on this list...
If the entities responsible for making the equipment that we use everyday
were available for feedback, just imagine what the state of the art would
soon be.
This post, with its few brags and boasts, is more than welcome; at least in
my opinion, as is the posts from Paragon, Ward burners, Orton and any others
out there. If monitoring the list and asking for feedback raises the
standards for "hobby ceramics" just one notch then a bit of salesmanship can
be tolerated, though Mr. Lewicki hardly came off as a salesman.
Perhaps some out there with some clout amongst the equipment manufacturers
could talk them into at least monitoring the list, the pottery world would
be a more "user friendly" place!
Tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lewicki"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 2:15 PM
Subject: soft fire brick in new kiln.
> Dear Clayart:
>
> I hope this does not seem like an outrageous plug.
>
> All the makers of electric ceramic kilns
> Stephen J Lewicki
> President
> L&L Kiln Mfg.
> Toll Free: 877-513-7869
> Fax: 610-485-4665
> Email: steve@hotkilns.com
> Web: www.hotkilns.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Stephen Lewicki on fri 11 jan 02
Dear Clayart:
I hope this does not seem like an outrageous plug.
All the makers of electric ceramic kilns, at least in the United States and to =
my knowledge, use either Thermal Ceramics K23 brick or the equivalent made by =
BNZ. The brick is soft =96 in fact it is much softer than most insulating =
firebricks that are used in industrial applications. The reason all of us kiln =
manufactures use this brick is because it is very energy efficient. It has one =
of the best thermal insulating characteristics in terms of heat flow and heat =
storage of all insulating firebricks. The modern electric kiln would not exist =
without it.
The question really is what is the best way to deal with this inherent softness =
of the K23 brick. L&L Kiln Mfg does two unique things. The first, and most =
important, is that we insert our elements in hard high-fired ceramic channels. =
These were invented by my father many years ago as he wrestled with the very =
problem that Alisa and Claus Clausen are wondering about. The ceramic holders =
protect the fragile firebrick. Most other manufactures, except some industrial =
furnace manufactures in industrial furnaces, just put several routes in the =
firebrick and insert the elements into the INSULATING brick. There are two =
problems with this standard practice. First, the wall of the brick that holds =
the element is very fragile. It may not break immediately but somewhere =
sometime the brick will break and the element will need to be jury-rigged into =
staying in place. (Pins can help but ceramic and metal do not stick together =
and the continued expansion and contraction of the metal in the brick can cause =
its own set of problems). Secondly, the thicker you make the wall that hold the =
element the more it insulates the heat of the element from the kiln and the =
thinner the brick is from the element to the outside of the kiln. In other =
words the standard method is not energy efficient. The hard ceramic that we =
use, being much stronger than the soft firebrick, only has about 1/8=94 (3 mm) =
between the hot element and the kiln interior. Moreover the hard ceramic, being =
very dense, transmits the heat more efficiently into the kiln.
Another thing we do to our kilns, which I believe is unique (at least as a =
standard feature), is that we coat the entire interior of the kiln with a =
hardening compound. Once the kiln is fired for the first time the interior =
becomes harder and more abrasion resistant than the untreated brick would be.
You are not unlike most kiln users who would like to get 15 or more years of =
life from their kilns. We routinely see that and better in our kilns. We were =
speaking just the other day with a well-known craft school that has had in =
continual abusive use two L&L kilns from 1982. The element boxes had finally =
rusted out and the control boxes needed some work but the INTERIOR of the kiln =
was operational!
Unfortunately, it is not possible to retrofit other kilns with our element =
holders (believe me if it were possible we=92d be happy to do so). The holders =
are kept in place by a tong-in-grove shallow route for which we have a special =
tool that we use in our production system. It is not an afternoon project.
Even though our element holders add considerably to the cost of our kilns our =
prices are not much more (and sometimes less) than our competitors. We have =
distributors all over the United States, although admittedly our distribution =
in many parts of the world is spotty. Interestingly, the Koreans, perhaps some =
of the most highly regarded and ancient of potters (as well has the hardest on =
kilns), have fallen in love with L&L kilns.
By the way =96 I do think some of the suggestions in this thread about patches =
can help and sooner rather than later is probably better.
Stephen J Lewicki
President
L&L Kiln Mfg.
Toll Free: 877-513-7869
Fax: 610-485-4665
Email: steve@hotkilns.com
Web: www.hotkilns.com
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