vince pitelka on mon 14 jan 02
> Just curious, since it seems that one can not have an MFA and have been
> a studio potter by several of the comments that have been made on this
> list.
Rick -
Thanks for pointing this out. A part of the MFA bashing which transpires
periodically on Clayart includes the implication that anyone with an MFA has
received all of their education in the antiseptic, unworldly environment of
academia. That in itself is a delusion, because most MFAs do get a broadly
diverse education. But there are many MFAs who worked full time in the
studio either before undergraduate school, or between undergrad and grad
school. I was a studio potter for almost ten years before grad school.
There are a lot of remarkable teaching potters out there who were
professional studio potters before grad school or before they decided to
teach. These include Pete Pinnell, Richard Burkette, Lee Rexrode, Julia
Galloway, and many others. And of course there are plenty of MFAs who went
directly from grad school to teaching who do a magnificent job teaching
studio potters just because they are absolutely committed to what they do,
and because they have that unquenchable thirst for knowledge and
information, and thus they inspire their students. That is the most
important thing of all.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Klyf Brown on tue 15 jan 02
Unless it is a vocational school, I don't think college is designed to
teach you what you need to know to do the job. It is designed to give
you the background, the vocabulary of the job and teaches you
enough to begin to know how to ask the right questions that will lead
you to what you need to know. Armed with this information and the
knowledge of how to Research, you are now ready to enter the job.
It gives you a real leg up on the alternative, which is to go to work in
the field at fifteen and apprentice for a dozen years. College also helps
you get a sampling of different fields so that you can make a more
informed decision about what you want to do with your life.
I think what many on this thread have missed is that the combination
of schooling and working is what makes many of us what we are.
There are a lot of self made people that are fabulous successes in their
field with no more that a sixth grade education. For the rest of us, lots
of book learnin dont do us no harm. Some even learnt english (not
me).
Klyf Brown In New Mexico (I cant even spell my own name right)
1/15/02 1:44:45 PM, Cindi Anderson ANDERSON.COM> wrote:
>I find all this talk fascinating. Does any college anywhere really
teach
>people what they need to know to do their job? 90% of what you
learn in
>engineering school you will never use, but someone in the end you
know how
>to think like an engineer.
Cindi Anderson on tue 15 jan 02
I find all this talk fascinating. Does any college anywhere really teach
people what they need to know to do their job? 90% of what you learn in
engineering school you will never use, but someone in the end you know how
to think like an engineer. If everyone started comparing notes, probably
either nobody would go to college, or colleges would have to get a lot
better at teaching what is important. I think what is different here is
this is being discussed by grown-ups that don't want to waste time on
something not very useful, who aren't willing to take a bunch of crap. But
the educational system is geared towards 18 year olds who do what they're
told and don't question it much.
Cindi
Fremont, CA
vince pitelka on wed 16 jan 02
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klyf Brown"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: MFAs with or without full-time studio experience
> Unless it is a vocational school, I don't think college is designed to
> teach you what you need to know to do the job. It is designed to give
> you the background, the vocabulary of the job and teaches you
> enough to begin to know how to ask the right questions that will lead
> you to what you need to know. Armed with this information and the
> knowledge of how to Research, you are now ready to enter the job.
> It gives you a real leg up on the alternative, which is to go to work in
> the field at fifteen and apprentice for a dozen years. College also helps
> you get a sampling of different fields so that you can make a more
> informed decision about what you want to do with your life.
> I think what many on this thread have missed is that the combination
> of schooling and working is what makes many of us what we are.
Klyf -
Thank you thank you for this post. It is much needed. People want college
to implant everything the need for a successful career, and that is a
delusion. Even with college, it takes a great deal of additional learning
to become a studio potter, and even with an MFA, it takes a great deal of
additional learning and practice to become a good teacher. That is no
surprise, and there is nothing wrong with that. But regarding all the
education classes which K-12 teachers are required to take, when faced with
the demands of teaching college studio classes, a teacher is going to do a
hell of a lot better by establishing deep proficiency in their chosen media
than by suffering through all those education classes, most of which are
complete bullshit, if I may be so blunt. Some of the best high-school art
teachers I have ever encountered had MFAs and no education classes, and
taught in districts or states which allowed some flexibility in hiring
standards, rather than having reduced them to national norms of mediocrity.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on wed 16 jan 02
> I think what is different here is
> this is being discussed by grown-ups that don't want to waste time on
> something not very useful, who aren't willing to take a bunch of crap.
But
> the educational system is geared towards 18 year olds who do what they're
> told and don't question it much.
Cindi -
I am not sure who you are talking about, but I do not recall taking a single
useless course in undergraduate or graduate school. Classes in mediocre
schools are geared towards 18-year-olds who do what they are told and don't
question it much. That is not the case in any really good school, where the
students are challenged and learn to take charge of their education. I
think the point is that any student can be more proactive in any school, but
it is up to the student. Our high schools do a poor job of teaching
students to take charge of their own destiny. Any student who goes all the
way through undergraduate school or graduate school and then whines that it
was a poor experience has only themselves to blame.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Richard Aerni on wed 16 jan 02
Mostly, I would guess, one learns what one needs to know to do a job on the
job. College continues to teach a student how to think, how to acquire
knowledge, how to work individually and in teams to problem solve, and to
give a broad base of general knowledge which may be of use in the future.
That is my opinion only. What can I say? I have to this point (going on
50), never made it through college all the way, though I have taught at the
college level in the past.
Last semester, however, I enrolled in a Constitutional Law course, just for
the heck of it. I worked harder than I ever remember working on any of my
regular courses, had an absolute blast, and learned just loads. Also, my
prof told me I could have taught the course. He was being overly kind, but
I was struck by the fact that there is a huge difference in practical
knowledge that one acquires in the course of a life lived with wide open
eyes and brain, versus theoretical knowledge acquired mainly through books
in class.
An additional thought on types of colleges and curriculum. Every school has
a different emphasis in their programs. I went to an Ivy League school out
of high school, and practical, hands on teaching was not one of their
priorities. At the small liberal arts school I'm now hanging round,
teaching is almost their entire emphasis. The profs are congenial,
accessible, and concerned with their students. It's most impressive. As
they say, taste it and try it before you buy it...
Richard Aerni
Bloomfield, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindi Anderson"
> I find all this talk fascinating. Does any college anywhere really teach
> people what they need to know to do their job? 90% of what you learn in
> engineering school you will never use, but someone in the end you know how
> to think like an engineer. If everyone started comparing notes, probably
> either nobody would go to college, or colleges would have to get a lot
> better at teaching what is important. I think what is different here is
> this is being discussed by grown-ups that don't want to waste time on
> something not very useful, who aren't willing to take a bunch of crap.
But
> the educational system is geared towards 18 year olds who do what they're
> told and don't question it much.
>
vince pitelka on thu 17 jan 02
> I agree with you that little is being accomplished. However, you seem
upset
> that people have personal frustrations. I realize you must have a bit of
> defensiveness, being an educator. But it seems like you don't want to
admit
> that some schools and teachers are not very good, and that people have had
a
> lot of bad experiences, despite their best efforts. Just because some
> schools have problems, it is no reflection on you.
Cindi -
I appreciate your post, but the tone of it is a little odd. I am of course
aware that some faculty and some schools have serious problems in their art
programs. I have acknowledged that clearly in my posts. I may get a little
pissed off about this issue, but I have no reason to be defensive. And I
have no problem if people vent their personal frustrations, as long as they
do not whine, but I am appalled at the generalizations made about academia,
and I have to speak up about it. That is all I am doing, and when academia
bashing comes around again, as it surely will, I will speak up again. This
has become a regular routine on Clayart for many years now.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Cindi Anderson on thu 17 jan 02
Maybe things are different in the arts. Maybe things are different 20 years
later. Or maybe either my or your experiences are unusual or (as I suspect)
things are different at every school.
I went to an engineering school that is considered excellent, got terrific
grades, learned everything they taught me. But most of my classes were in
advanced calculus and other such things, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but
which less than 1% of engineers do anything with. It was also a very
authoritarian place, where you didn't ask questions and didn't get input.
You took the classes you were supposed to, and if you complained that the
instructor didn't speak english well or couldn't teach, it was "tough luck".
I later went to graduate school at another "excellent" school, where the
instructors were from industry. They were much more practical and students
were almost treated like human beings instead of little robots. I say
almost because there still were arcane rules and idiotic things we did, but
"that's the way it was done."
I have never been impressed with university's attitudes about their
"customer". But as I said, things have changed. Even my old alma mater
talks about TQM and the student as "customer."
Cindi
and to your next post...
I agree with you that little is being accomplished. However, you seem upset
that people have personal frustrations. I realize you must have a bit of
defensiveness, being an educator. But it seems like you don't want to admit
that some schools and teachers are not very good, and that people have had a
lot of bad experiences, despite their best efforts. Just because some
schools have problems, it is no reflection on you. If your school is better
than that, you should feel good about it. And if you got better schooling
than that, you should consider yourself lucky. But just because others
didn't doesn't mean they did something wrong and are responsible for it.
Cindi
...and finally, a conclusion on this whole thread. Some people have good
experiences and some have bad. Some schools are good and some are bad.
Some teachers are good and some are bad. Some things you would learn better
by apprentice, some things you would learn better in school. There are no
generalizations. The only thing that seems useful along these lines are
posts that would say "school X emphasizes real world", "school Y emphasizes
fine art over practical studio experience", "school Z has courses to teach
teachers how to teach." That is assuming you are sure you have the right
current information. This could help people choose the right place.
Cindi
----- Original Message -----
From: "vince pitelka"
Any student who goes all the
> way through undergraduate school or graduate school and then whines that
it
> was a poor experience has only themselves to blame.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
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