Earl Brunner on tue 15 jan 02
Snail Scott wrote:
> Some MFA programs consider themselves 'studio' programs,
> with the intent of producing professional studio artists;
> others consider themselves 'teaching' programs, to produce
> the next generation of college art teachers. Most MFA
> programs have a very clear idea of which they are, and if
> it's not obvious to the applicants, they should ask, just
> as they should ask about other aspects of the program.
> Let's not blame a duck for not being a goose!
When it comes to teaching though, they don't ask, " Now is this MFA a "studio" MFA
or a "teaching" MFA. Further more I would still like to see a "teaching" MFA that
required teaching methods classes.
>
>
> What, there's no other options besides pottery or teaching?
> First, let's remember that MFA's come in many flavors, and
> that clay does exist in forms other than pottery.
The point that I and others was making was that they, (the schools) tend to require
an MFA for any kind of long term relationship. That's fine, it's more of a problem
with the accrediting institutions. They have to have some kind of measurement that
they can try to quantify in order to accredit a program. The argument was just
that having a MFA, really doesn't make one a good teacher anymore than NOT having
one automatically precludes someone from being a good teacher.
> I believe,
> (and I know Vince may disagree, because we've debated it in
> the past), a university is not really the optimum training
> ground for a studio potter. The academic and intellectual
> baggage that a college art program maintains, (in no small
> part because it IS a college program,) is seldom terribly
> relevant to pottery, or in fact to many other art forms.
> College art departments are a great place to learn to make
> conceptually-based contemporary art; it's their 'house style'.
> They're not the best places to learn other things, like
> portrait painting, or (for example,) pottery. I have
> nothing against pottery. In fact, I admire it as a craft
> and as an artform, but it it really best taught in college?
>
I will agree that methods classes are not going to make a good teacher out of
someone that has no talent for teaching. If one has the talent, some of the classes
will make you a better teacher. Education in this country is screwed up, and I
don't think we can fix it just by talking about it. It is out of control. I simply
suggest in a perfect world, good teachers would be able to teach. They would
certainly be no worse than the "certified" or "degree" equipped teachers that can't
teach because they have no talent.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Snail Scott on tue 15 jan 02
Victor wrote:
>>...Wy isnt [teaching]
>> a necessary part of every MFA program.
Earl wrote:
>Well, if you ask, they will probably tell you that they aren't training
teachers
>they are training "professionals".
Some MFA programs consider themselves 'studio' programs,
with the intent of producing professional studio artists;
others consider themselves 'teaching' programs, to produce
the next generation of college art teachers. Most MFA
programs have a very clear idea of which they are, and if
it's not obvious to the applicants, they should ask, just
as they should ask about other aspects of the program.
Let's not blame a duck for not being a goose!
Earl wrote:
>There's a sort of catch 22 here. They abhor
>the thought of cranking out "studio" potters, but they don't want to require
>teaching methods classes.
Victor wrote:
>> Why isnt a year residency as a studio potter also required for a
>> degree?
What, there's no other options besides pottery or teaching?
First, let's remember that MFA's come in many flavors, and
that clay does exist in forms other than pottery. I believe,
(and I know Vince may disagree, because we've debated it in
the past), a university is not really the optimum training
ground for a studio potter. The academic and intellectual
baggage that a college art program maintains, (in no small
part because it IS a college program,) is seldom terribly
relevant to pottery, or in fact to many other art forms.
College art departments are a great place to learn to make
conceptually-based contemporary art; it's their 'house style'.
They're not the best places to learn other things, like
portrait painting, or (for example,) pottery. I have
nothing against pottery. In fact, I admire it as a craft
and as an artform, but it it really best taught in college?
Earl wrote:
>Any high school art teacher out there has been trained
>better in methods that your average MFA candidate.
I don't know about that; my high school didn't offer art. I
can say that the qualifications of some of my other high-
school teachers were appalling, such as the history teacher
who couldn't tell me what 'A.D.' stood for. (He had his
teaching methodology down cold, though.) At my college, good
students with an interest in teaching were routinely steered
away from education degrees. They were told instead to get
degrees in their chosen field, then take the minimum courses
needed for teaching certification. The College of Education
was a laughingstock within the university, with its dogmatic
theories founded on thin air and its preference for procedure
over content. It had the lowest minimum GPA of any college
within the university. Flunk out of the English department?
Transfer to Education! I believe that most of the high-
school teachers I've met who were any good (and there have
been many) had degrees in fields other than education.
But, with that said,
No college faculty positions require actual teacher
training, and I do believe that this is often a mistake.
Grad students in every discipline are generally given a
quickie intro to teaching, then thrown into a classroom to
practice on the freshmen undergrads, even in programs which
emphasize teaching. And it often shows, to the detriment of
the students. Most grads learn enough to be competent when
finally hired as faculty, but not all.
And,
Even MFA programs which intend to train studio artists
seldom get into real-world professional skills. This may
be because the professors, (naturally) have little
experience in this area, and don't know where the gaps
are, either. This is true of most professional degrees,
but most other graduates get JOBS when they graduate;
they aren't trying to combine their first work experience
with starting a small business!
However:
The trend in higher education has been away from hiring
tenure-track faculty, and toward hiring more part-time,
short-contract instructors. The rules for hiring for
such positions are much more open than those for 'real'
faculty. Such positions typically pay poorly and offer
no job security, but because of this, people hired for
such positions typically DO have a wide variety of real-
world experience, and they bring this to their students.
These changes in hiring practices generally arise not
out of concern for education, but from cost-cutting
efforts and an avoidance of the liability associated
with tenure, but art students in particular may be
well-served by the trend.
-Snail
vince pitelka on wed 16 jan 02
> When it comes to teaching though, they don't ask, " Now is this MFA a
> "studio" MFA or a "teaching" MFA. Further more I would still like to see
a
> "teaching" MFA that required teaching methods classes.
Earl -
Some do. I went through a 3-year MFA program at UMass Amherst. During the
first semester we took a teaching methods class taught by an education
professor. After that we each taught one class every spring semester and
two classes every fall semester. We did all our own class preparation and
taught the classes on our own, but of course it was all under the
supervision of the full-time faculty, so that we could benefit from their
experience and advice. I wish more MFA programs had similar requirements.
When I left grad school and started teaching college classes I felt well
prepared.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
> >
> >
> > What, there's no other options besides pottery or teaching?
> > First, let's remember that MFA's come in many flavors, and
> > that clay does exist in forms other than pottery.
>
> The point that I and others was making was that they, (the schools) tend
to require
> an MFA for any kind of long term relationship. That's fine, it's more of
a problem
> with the accrediting institutions. They have to have some kind of
measurement that
> they can try to quantify in order to accredit a program. The argument was
just
> that having a MFA, really doesn't make one a good teacher anymore than NOT
having
> one automatically precludes someone from being a good teacher.
>
> > I believe,
> > (and I know Vince may disagree, because we've debated it in
> > the past), a university is not really the optimum training
> > ground for a studio potter. The academic and intellectual
> > baggage that a college art program maintains, (in no small
> > part because it IS a college program,) is seldom terribly
> > relevant to pottery, or in fact to many other art forms.
> > College art departments are a great place to learn to make
> > conceptually-based contemporary art; it's their 'house style'.
> > They're not the best places to learn other things, like
> > portrait painting, or (for example,) pottery. I have
> > nothing against pottery. In fact, I admire it as a craft
> > and as an artform, but it it really best taught in college?
> >
>
> I will agree that methods classes are not going to make a good teacher out
of
> someone that has no talent for teaching. If one has the talent, some of
the classes
> will make you a better teacher. Education in this country is screwed up,
and I
> don't think we can fix it just by talking about it. It is out of control.
I simply
> suggest in a perfect world, good teachers would be able to teach. They
would
> certainly be no worse than the "certified" or "degree" equipped teachers
that can't
> teach because they have no talent.
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Earl Brunner on thu 17 jan 02
That is definitely an improvement over the MFA program I was in. The teachers were
great at Utah State, I'm not faulting them, and I know friends that got their MFA's
and teaching certificates (K-12) at the same time, so they took the required
classes for that. I just don't remember any part of the actual MFA, painting,
sculpture, printmaking, ceramics, whatever, that even addressed teaching.
Perhaps things have improved since then. Anyone else know of any other schools
that do this?
vince pitelka wrote:
> > When it comes to teaching though, they don't ask, " Now is this MFA a
> > "studio" MFA or a "teaching" MFA. Further more I would still like to see
> a
> > "teaching" MFA that required teaching methods classes.
>
> Earl -
> Some do. I went through a 3-year MFA program at UMass Amherst. During the
> first semester we took a teaching methods class taught by an education
> professor. After that we each taught one class every spring semester and
> two classes every fall semester. We did all our own class preparation and
> taught the classes on our own, but of course it was all under the
> supervision of the full-time faculty, so that we could benefit from their
> experience and advice. I wish more MFA programs had similar requirements.
> When I left grad school and started teaching college classes I felt well
> prepared.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
> > >
> > >
> > > What, there's no other options besides pottery or teaching?
> > > First, let's remember that MFA's come in many flavors, and
> > > that clay does exist in forms other than pottery.
> >
> > The point that I and others was making was that they, (the schools) tend
> to require
> > an MFA for any kind of long term relationship. That's fine, it's more of
> a problem
> > with the accrediting institutions. They have to have some kind of
> measurement that
> > they can try to quantify in order to accredit a program. The argument was
> just
> > that having a MFA, really doesn't make one a good teacher anymore than NOT
> having
> > one automatically precludes someone from being a good teacher.
> >
> > > I believe,
> > > (and I know Vince may disagree, because we've debated it in
> > > the past), a university is not really the optimum training
> > > ground for a studio potter. The academic and intellectual
> > > baggage that a college art program maintains, (in no small
> > > part because it IS a college program,) is seldom terribly
> > > relevant to pottery, or in fact to many other art forms.
> > > College art departments are a great place to learn to make
> > > conceptually-based contemporary art; it's their 'house style'.
> > > They're not the best places to learn other things, like
> > > portrait painting, or (for example,) pottery. I have
> > > nothing against pottery. In fact, I admire it as a craft
> > > and as an artform, but it it really best taught in college?
> > >
> >
> > I will agree that methods classes are not going to make a good teacher out
> of
> > someone that has no talent for teaching. If one has the talent, some of
> the classes
> > will make you a better teacher. Education in this country is screwed up,
> and I
> > don't think we can fix it just by talking about it. It is out of control.
> I simply
> > suggest in a perfect world, good teachers would be able to teach. They
> would
> > certainly be no worse than the "certified" or "degree" equipped teachers
> that can't
> > teach because they have no talent.
> > --
> > Earl Brunner
> > http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> > mailto:bruec@anv.net
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Dannon Rhudy on thu 17 jan 02
Earl said:
.....I just don't remember any part of the actual MFA, painting,
>sculpture, printmaking, ceramics, whatever, that even addressed teaching.
>Perhaps things have improved since then. Anyone else know of any other
schools >that do this?.......
The University of North Texas requires a "teaching" class the first
semester. Most of the grad students teach while in school, and
these classes are very helpful. In fact, necessary. Saved me from
terminal terror those first teaching assignments. Don't doubt it
helped those I TAUGHT, too.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Suzanne Wolfe on fri 18 jan 02
In response to Earl's question re: schools that give their MFA students
the opportunity to teach. Way back when, as a student at the University
of Michigan, I taught a beginning course in ceramics during my final
school year. This was a opportunity that many of the students had. I
don't know if Michigan still does this. (It was called a graduate
assistantship, or something like that.)
Now I teach at the University of Hawai'i, and it is our policy to help
students gain experience teaching, if that is what they want to do. We
have a teaching practicuum (sp?) course, as well as graduate
assistantships that provide this experience. In addition, in the ceramics
program, we give students who have just finished with their MFA's the
opportunity to teach as a lecturer in our system, for at least one
semester. Often they end up teaching longer. This gives them experience
in the "real world", and gives us (i.e. the full-time faculty) further
opportunities to help them, if necessary.
This entire discussion is very interesting to me, since my experiences (as
well as my knowledge of other institutions) seems to be that quite a few
schools offer teaching opportunities for their graduate students. (In
fact, at our university, we have a really big "art appreciation" course,
and graduate students also assist in that course -- granted it is not
ceramics, but that, at least in my mind, is irrelevant.)
I do feel that, at least in this discussion, academic institutions are
being unduly chastised. It seems more research on the subject is
necessary.
Regards and aloha...
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